So I've been getting really into camping lately and have started to take interest in learning about survival skills. One book I picked up is called "Wilderness Surival: Living off the Land with the Clothes on your Back and the Knife on your Belt."

It's written primiarily in the form of a journal from a guy who spent (most of) 46 days in the woods, then interspersed with instructions on how to do particular survival skills, make things, build shelters, etc.

What makes it uncomfortable for me to read, as does just about every other book I saw in this genre, is the emphasis on hunting. Instructions for snares, spears, traps, how to build a "rabbit stick" (for throwing at unsuspecting bunnies) were a major part of the instructions in this book. In the journal part, this guy is hunting nearly every single day. He even expresses his own discomfort in it, since we're not talking about quick and easy kills with a gun, but often kills that require brute force or bare hands.

The underlying assumption is this: If you get stranded out in the woods, you will need to kill and eat animals to survive.

The journal parts of the book are filled with rants about how he used to be a vegetarian until he sort of saw the light and realized that we must kill to live, and blah blah (you've all heard this before I'm sure) and how it fits the ecosystem and there's animal overpopulation and blah blah blah etc.

For me this is especially troublesome since, not only am I working towards a raw/vegan lifestyle, but as a Buddhist I have sworn not to kill (first precept) and to "affirm life" (the first precept's positive counterpart). So I am very sensitive to the karma of killing and I can't imagine killing a rabbit or a squirrel anymore than my own cat. I go out of my way to avoid killing insects because of the karma it produces for me.

I'm not sure what my question is. Just had to share my discomfort here. There's plenty of non-killing stuff in this particular book, but it seems impossible to find a survival book that doesn't have any.

My one comforting thought is this - I have done fasts and I know I can go at least 10 days without food, and that's just a minimum. (assuming I have water) I can probably go much longer without suffering ill effects (as long as I have water), and if you give me the right berries and plants to eat I'm sure I could survive quite awhile, nutritionwise.

I guess I'm wondering, is it me, or is the whole paradigm wrong? Or what?

-DaveK

Itzdavey Wrote:

> The underlying assumption is this: If you get
> stranded out in the woods, you will need to kill
> and eat animals to survive.

Since this is an invalid assumption, especially when viewed from a Buddhist perspective, perhaps you would be more comfortable looking for information on edible plants, roots, seeds, and flowers that grow in the area you live? Somewhere around here I think I have a pocket picture book of the edible plants in Southern CA. I'll look for it and let you know what I find.

Yes, after I get through some survivalist literature (and just ignore the killing bunnies parts) the next thing I need is some serious field guides on edible plants. I live in Delaware right now which is where I camp, but when I begin hiking it will probably be in PA.

Thanks for looking and please let me know what you find!

My problem isn't so much that the information isn't available, it's the underlying assumption that I find in such literature. Just wondering what people think of this or if they have gone through the same thing.

The other stuff in the book is really good BTW, so don't get me wrong on that. There's stuff about building a shelter, how to make bowls out of rock, how to weave baskets out of tree roots, how to make tongs, pliers, contaners from tree bark, cordage from different kind of plants, etc.

There is an inspiring element to it that makes you want ot go "hey, f*** it" and just go out in the woods never to be seen again. lol It's just that they seem to make it out as if it "goes along with the territory" which is the part I don't like.

-DaveK

Well you could easily be vegetarian for months if you really knew what you were doing stranded in the wild. Eventually you'd probably end up eating meat though. I can't think of anywhere outside of maybe Hawaii, Costa Rica and other wet tropical places where living off the land on vegetation alone would suffice & even there probably it wouldn't work in the "true wild" but nearly human civilization where non-native fruit & nut trees had been planted.

A little wild edible knowledge will go a long way though and in the short term humans can survive on very little.

My first question if I was stranded in the wild would be "where can I get water?!".

I think if you learned all the other survival techniques, then foraging for year-round plant foods in an hospitable environment would be quite easy. Your local extension service should be able to help with lists of edible local plants native to your area. And there's always the standby greens and other edibles that are all-over and easy to identify (like dandelion).

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Itzdavey Wrote:

> The underlying assumption is this: If you get
> stranded out in the woods, you will need to kill
> and eat animals to survive.

Learn to forage for plants and wild fruits, or get stranded in a tropical forest, that's the best place to get lost ;-)

Raw Fruit Festival
[www.raw-fruit-festival.net]
Health, Fitness and Fasting Retreats in Spain
[www.fit-in-nature.net]

Hi Dave K

There is a guy who is a survivalist but also ( i think) a raw foodist

he has videos on some type of meditation

i saw his book once but not sure why i didn't purchase it at the time

had very great pictures of edible plants

those books and mentality are very few and far in between cuz like u said a lot of them seem to think that u will need to hunt to survive

be strong and don't let those written words sway you

i am reading a book right now

totally unrelated to diet

but totally contradictory to my way of viewing things

at first, i started getting REALLY embroiled in what this author was saying

then i said to myself " just chill... its just HIS opinion no matter how compelling"

and so i just took it for what it was

just because an OPINION is provocative

does not necessarily mean you have to adopt it

just because it makes you "think"

does not mean it is fact

just because an idea seems to push your button

does not mean it is for you

be strong

be in a quiet space

and listen to what YOU say as truth

Thank you la veronique. To be honest, I do enjoy reading books that put forth a different opinion than mine, becuase they do cause you to grow. Well, I guess "enjoy" isn't the right word. But it's an enriching experience, something I should do more of.

I haven't gotten to the very end of this particular book yet, but one thing to keep in mind is that the author was in his 20s when he wrote the journal part of it. He says that in the epilogue (which he wrote more recently) he gives his current ideas which have changed somewhat. So I'll be interested to see what those are.

I like the way you write your posts BTW. It's good for my ADD. lol

-DaveK

I used to read survivalist books too (never killed an animal, just read them), it didn't bother me until I became a vegan. When you are a meateater you kind of have this attitude, I wish I didn't have to do this, but I have to do this in order to survive. Because meateaters don't realize that you CAN live without meat, they've probably heard about it, but they haven't fully comprehended various points about vegetarianism. I remember that once I learned that I didn't HAVE to eat meat in order to survive, I was thrilled. There was still a little reservation that I might get sick and die (yes die, I don't know where I got that idea, it's more like an impression that I had rather than a "fact" that I learned) if I dumped the meat, but I tried vegetarianism anyway, I kind of held my breath and and watched what happened, and all that happened was that I got healthier.

I was reading about this new series of books from Russia called the Ringing Cedars series. And it's basically about woman tarzan. I haven't got the books, but I've been reading the websites and she is so in tune with nature that the animals help her. The squirrels bring her nuts and the bears come and curl up next to her to keep her warm!

Right now I'm just skipping over the bunny-killing stuff, and trying to learn the rest from the books. Next is to start learning all the plants I can. The trick is identifying them - I have a terrible visual memory.

Those books sound neat Lillian. I have some friends that would definately be interested.

Learning survival skills in order to forage for plants is kinda overkill..There are many foraging classes taught all over the USA that would address that need..

Learning survival skills in order to survive an extended period of time in the "wilderness" where your equipment is limited or non-existent is another scenario entirely..

A true survival situation calls first for shelter, preferably waterproof & wind proof..Second, is a supply of water, which in extremis might mean a solar still to recycle one's own urine as well as the moisture in non-poisonous plants..Third, is fire..Fourth is food..Most modern Americans can live easily for several months on their fat reserves..Not so raw vegans whose fat levels are generally much lower..

A survival kit that would cover almost any contingency for virtually any place in the world can be carried around in a small package measuring 6"wide by 8"long by 4" thick & weighing in at no more than 2-3 pounds..

The equipment in such a kit presupposes the necessary knowledge to effectively use the materials in the kit..That knowledge is best acquired by attending one of the better survival schools..The one that I attended back in the 1990's was the Tracker School that was started by Tom Brown..I highly recommend it for basic skills..After attending such a school the skills must be practiced or the skills will become very rusty & not of much use in a future catastrophe..

Google Tom Brown, the Tracker School, & his various books of which there are approximately 15 or so in print..

Bruce

baltochef Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Learning survival skills in order to forage for
> plants is kinda overkill..There are many foraging
> classes taught all over the USA that would address
> that need..

I don't think i ever said I was reading survival books to learn foraging. Only that in reading the books, I find that the paradigm when it comes to food is that survival=hunting.

> Learning survival skills in order to survive an
> extended period of time in the "wilderness" where
> your equipment is limited or non-existent is
> another scenario entirely..

Yet if you read survival books, every other chapter seems to be about how to kill or trap animals. Yes, they tell you about shelters, water stills, rock boiling, etc. But they also seem to assume you're going to miss your steak dinner and want to eat something that night. I found this to be consistent looking through most of the survival books.

> A true survival situation calls first for shelter,
> preferably waterproof & wind proof..Second, is a
> supply of water, which in extremis might mean a
> solar still to recycle one's own urine as well as
> the moisture in non-poisonous plants..Third, is
> fire..Fourth is food..Most modern Americans can
> live easily for several months on their fat
> reserves..Not so raw vegans whose fat levels are
> generally much lower..

This I wonder about. Raw vegans may not have the fat reserves, but I think that because of the way their body utilizes nutrition, it might be better at getting what it needs out of whatever is there. Most SAD dieters get headaches and discomfort when they skip a meal. I can easily go most of the day without eating, as long as I'm hydrated, and not have any drop in energy or appetite. (I am about 130 pounds.) I have fasted so I know I can go awhile on just water also without suffering ill effects. So though I lack the fat reserves I still think I might fare better in a survival situation. Also, if I find an edible plant or two that might sustain me becuase I can process the nutrition better, whereas my SAD friend will want to know when the salad is over and the real meal is coming.

> Google Tom Brown, the Tracker School, & his
> various books of which there are approximately 15
> or so in print..

Thanks. I'll check him out. But still, Tracking means "tracking animals" and when that's tied up with survival skills it means "tracking animals in order to kill them and eat them."

So again it begs the question of how much of survival skills is tied up with this meat paradigm. I keep reading about the spiritual side of tracking and how it feels so marvelous to be in tune with the rythms of nature when you are tracking animals. I believe that, but when that nice little speech is over, our at-one-with-nature friend is snacking away on that "beautiful creature" he was admiring. At least that's what I keep finding in the book I'm reading at the moment.

-DaveK

DaveK

You are correct in that virtually all of the books & therefore the classes being taught are based on the premise of killing animals for food..

100,000 years of humans killing animals for food has pretty much led to that being the norm..

Because of the ease of mis-identification when it comes to teaching someone how to recognize & safely obtain wild plants for food this aspect of survival is not much emphasized in either the books or the classes..The resultant lawsuits that would ensue from a student eating raw wild plants & becoming ill or dying during a class pretty much mitigate against this knowledge being passed along..The same would apply for after the student left the class & returned home..During the week long class that I attended at the Tracker School we probably spent less than 1 hour to actually identify, pick, & eat wild plants..The ones that we did sample were the "SAFE" plants such as dandelion, plantain, burdock, & pine needles..

The immense volume of knowledge that is required to safely forage in North America for wild foods literally takes an entire childhood to learn..As well as the rest of one's life to master..This is an aspect of life that raw vegans need to concentrate on in the coming decades..Most of this knowledge (95-99%) is currently in the hands of native peoples ranging from the Artic to southern Mexico..The remaining small percentage resides in the minds of survivalists, foragers, & those people still living close to the land..It is usually the very poor that still forage for food out of necessity..Most native peoples have been so mal-treated by the European conquerors & their governments that they are extremely reluctant to part with any of their centuries old knowledge..

Bruce



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2008 12:37AM by baltochef.

Field Guide to Edible Wild Plants
Bradford Angier
Stackpole Books
Copyright 1974

This is an excellent book. It has illustrations to assist in identification. It has prep tips. Even in temperate climates it is possible to survive the winter if you have some time to prepare. The book is not a survival guide per se but it kind of has a bit of that in it.
I almost took a course called wild edibles of central park. the criteria was a pair of gloves, a pocket knife, and some bags. Supposedly you collected your dinner from the park and would be taught how to prepare it.

gorilla war

looks like a cool book, will check it out

baltochef

i read the book u were talking about " The Tracker" by Tom Brown

freakin excellent... and so incredibly spiritual

i did check out his site a while back
i knew someone whose friend went there as well

but i didn't ask his friend how the school was

would u mind giving me your impression of the school?

i read some guy's blog on it

he kind of did a disservice to Tom's school ( very biased and disrespectful)

i wanted to get another opinion

la_veronique

The Tracker School, like much of modern life, exists as a dichotomy..On the one hand, Tom Brown was taught & inspired by Stalking Wolf as a child, teenager, & young man to have the aboriginal skills of an Apache warrior & medicine man..As a part of his spiritual journey he feels compelled to pass on as much of this knowledge as he can to as many people as possible..

Many of the people who attend his classes do so after reading his books..The books come across as incredibly spiritual..Then they arrive at his 500 acre farm in New Jersey expecting things that cannot be delivered..They arrive all dewy eyed & idealistic..

The teen aged boy that turned me onto Tom Brown went to the farm expecting some kind of wilderness experience & came back somewhat disappointed..I don't know why he was expecting what he was, for after all the only thing that in those days that could be considered wilderness in New Jersey were sections of the Pine Barrens..And the farm is not even close to the Pine Barrens..When I attended my Basic Class the farm was still a working farm that was farmed by someone that rented the land from Tom Brown..

The other thing that my young friend was extremely disappointed over was the fact that Tom Brown at that time smoked cigarettes..He had built up this picture in his mind of Tom Brown that put him up on a pedestal as a kind of wilderness god..When he got to the Basic Class & realized that Tom Brown was a mortal just like all of the rest of us with all of the idiosyncrasies & foibles that human beings possess; he was very devastated..So much so that it severely affected his enjoyment of the class & his demeanor after he returned..

This idealism & subsequent disappointment is typical to some extent or another by many of the people who attend his Basic Class..I think that the reason for this is due to the fact that for many of us there are so few people that we truly look up to in life..After reading his books it's easy to build up an unrealistic picture of Tom Brown in one's mind..

The final thing that disappoints many attendees is that Tom Brown does not personally teach all of the classes..He has instructors that he has highly trained that do the majority of the instructing..For many this seems to be a big sticking point..Many of these instructors have gone on to open schools of their own which was Stalking Wolf's intentions..The dissemination of the aboriginal Apache & other native peoples skills & knowledge to as many humans as possible was Stalking Wolf's mission in life..Which he passed on to Tom Brown..Who has passed the same mission on to others..

As far as the Basic Class itself is concerned I feel that it is a tremendous value for the money spent..Tom Brown pulls no punches as regards to being extremely blunt about his views on survival..The amount of information being taught in the Basic Class is immense..I started at 6:00-7:00 AM & went to AT LEAST 11:00 PM every night..About 60-70% of the time was spent listening to lectures & demonstrations..The balance of the time was spent actually practicing some of the skills..

Some of the skills in the class are certainly oriented towards tracking, killing, cooking, & eating animals..However tracking can be used for more than killing animals..

Hope this helps..

Bruce

hey Bruce,

That was really helpful. I appreciate it. thanks a lot. There is no danger of me feeling let down because someone does not express absolute divinity. I am more than used to seeing "great people" having even greater foibles. That is what makes people human and that is what makes them interesting as far as I'm concerned.

It would be great if I could go to the school. It is a goal I am still keeping in mind. ANY learning of that caliber is good as far as I'm concerned. I do what I do with all forms of learning... I take it ... then I move on.

The things that he teaches really are things that would take not just a lot of years to learn but a great deal of unwavering consistent high enthusiasm and total devotion.

I guess that is the same for anything that someone truly loves. They end up spending a great deal of time ( years and years) dedicated to the great devotion.

Blessed are those who love something.. it is an endless source of love.