Brayan, I just want to say I support your decision to delete negative post,
it in no way reflects censership, just very good judgement.
thank you.

IS your definition of negative not agreeing with you,

Also your posts were also deleted.

How can wiping out other's opinions in any way be a good thing?

Isn't discussion how we solve issues?

This thinking is too narrow minded for me.

I think I will have to skeedaddle.

It saddens me because I love this raw food community but I can't allow this kind of disrespect toward me and others. It goes against how I allow people to treat me. I guess I have to say since I am disrespected I was wrong about these raw foodists. They are not the open minded, caring people I thought they were.

Negativity beckons negativity,
How can wipping out others post be a good thing?
answer when the post are not making a point and are just about agitating
that is a good thing,.
I have no problem with my post being scraped, I got agitated by the neg
and posted a neg.
can we get off the side roads and onto what is real please.
have a nice skeedadle paid for fun, or is it cyc?

It is neither paid for fun or Cyc. It is pakd4fun.

No one held a gun to your head and made you or post on those threads or read them.

Thanks for caring about me. You have a nice time getting to what is real. It should be easier when you guys run off anyone of a different opinion.

I'm seriously thinking about leaving, also. This board has operated for years without censoring and deleting posts, and even though we disagreed with each other many times, we always worked it out. It's a shame because this board was really hopping lately, and it was fun, as opposed to how boring, mundane and slow it was a while ago when there was no political discussion going on.

I agree. I was enjoying all the different ideas people had even if i didn't always agree. It was opportunity to learn and grow. Some people don't want to learn and grow. Although I don't think they should be forced, it is wrong to try to stop others from doing so.

Thanks Bill. You are a breath of fresh air and my idea of a real patriot.

Time for the haters to either be civil or take a hike. I am tired of-- among other things-- my husband being called a 'thief' and a 'coward' by el natural and cyclopsale because as a blind and deaf person he receives disability benefits and in 1982 he moved into a state-subsidized apartment. That kind of name-calling goes beyond free speech. It's not helping people 'learn and grow;' it's shaming and blaming the innocent. It's ugly and it's got to STOP NOW.

Onward and upward. Make your choices guys: please be respectful or get your posts deleted. Period.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2008 05:11PM by kwan.

Your posts were deleated too Kwan. Maybe it is the ones you are speaking to that were learning and growing. I guess you can not learn from me. Fine. If that is your attitude you surely must be right.

As I recall it was the government that was called thieving and not Jonathan.

I have the upmost respect for Jonathan from what I know about him.

No one held a gun to your head either. If you don't like reading things, then don't read them. Silencing those who disagree is never the answer. Is that the kind of government you want? Where only some have voice?

My actual request was to only remove el natural and cyclopsale's posts, not anyone else's, and to give them both a warning. Bryan probably looked at all the negative posts and decided it was too hard to sort out. I don't blame him.

I don't want to silence those who disagree, and never have-- you'll likely never see me trying to silence you, Jose or Lois (although Lois has really been pushin' the envelope lately, I have to say) because they know where to draw the line between free speech and hate speech, discourse and bullying.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Why didn't you just not read them and allow us to have our discussion? If you can't stand the heat... well you get the point.

I had just written a post to El and Cyclops that might have planted a seed, but we will never know now.

Elnatural was the only one I found disrespectful. If Bryan is to be the judge he should do it with respect to everyone, not just Kwan.

Do you think young people with blossoming minds should be silenced? Should they not be listened to? I wonder if this is how you reared your children, if you had any. I will tell you I don't believe you or Bryan have the patience for children. If you truly want to make political changes in this world, you need to work on the next generation and that might require some growth on your part as well.

i would like to thank coco for her patience. I know it was hard for her to have the patience required to deal with certain people and she took the time to try to open minds and not just butt heads. Kudos to you coco, a great teacher and a great mother!!!

well thanks. i seem to have missed the frouferah but i'm not sorry i did. things have been volatile enough in here lately.

i have some thougths and suggestions for those who are not enjoying these discussions and those who are feeling like they want to leave because of deleting threads etc.

bryan is the only moderator here, he has a big enough job keeping spam off the boards and keeping on top of non-vegan posting (not because of censorship but because that is the format of this website and the guidelines we agree to follow when we post here). if we can't keep the explosive politics out of the threads here perhaps those discussions should move on to a political forum elsewhere. it seems a little defeatist to throw away membership in this entire website because of one thing that you don't agree with. my mom always says "take the wheat and leave the shaft", now i know most of you don't eat wheat (ha ha) that just means take what you need and leave the rest. stay in the food threads if they still benefit you and take political conversations to a forum that is intended for and tolerant of that. this is the best raw foods site i've ever found, seems a waste not to take advantage of that because of what happens on the OT forum. i mean, quit the OT if it's the part you have a problem with but why the rest of it too? cancelling membership here doesn't hurt bryan or the people you disagree with or the owner of the site, it only hurts You.

I understand your points coco. Believe me I have made them myself in my own mind. The problem I have is with Bryan censoring perfectly respectable posts, yours included. I find it disrespectful to everyone hereincluding you, and if he were to, say change that behavior I would no longer have a problem. I have never started a political thread but I don't like being silenced because someone doesn't agree when I, or anyone, posts on one. It's rude. I guess I can't be a part of a community that condones rude behavior. That caters to it. Everyone deserves respect. That is why I will be leaving. Ultimately finding my own way has been my path anyway. I will miss you and and many others. In the two years I have been here i have met so many wonderful people. I hope our paths cross again.

If you truly don't like the political threads don't read them or post on them. That is much better than trying to control them.

i know it's a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water but it is too much work to ask bryan to sift through the posts, reading everything to figure out what is truly offensive, crosses the line, goes against the policy of the website, etc. i think that's a lot to ask of him and to be honest i don't mind my posts being sacrificed along with the rest if that is what needs to be done. he is a volunteer moderator after all, it can't be easy for him to do it and he sure can't please everyone no matter what he chooses to do.
i hope you'll reconsider or come back sometime.

<<i hope you'll reconsider or come back sometime.>>

Thanks coco. I might see you around on raw talk. I joined raw freedom this morning. I really like the sunny raw kitchen.

If Bryan had specifically asked kwan which posts she found offensive he wouldn't have had to sift through them. There are plenty of alternatives to deleting the thread. I spent a long time writing my posts. One of them that didn't even get a chance to be read by one person. That is wasted time now. Time stolen from all of us. If more of you saw how wrong that was than Bryan might change his position and this would be a better place to post thoughts.

When I was a kid something was stolen in my class. The principle didn't know who did it. For whatever reason the victim had several suspects, one being me. The principle tried to get all suspects to pay a share of the cost. My father refused. I guess I learned a lesson from that. Everyone should not have to pay for what one or a few do. Also nothing is learned if the specific posts are not identified. El's were the only offensive ones I saw.

See you around the net !!

Kise'

i hear what you are saying but that is a lot of time to ask of bryan, i am sure he has a busy life and can only devote so much time here. people may be mad about him taking the easy route and deleting the whole thread but one of his jobs is to keep this place from becoming too contentious. we may not agree with how that gets done but it's his judgement call. it's not a job i would want to do myself so i appreciate that someone else is willing to take it on, whether i agree with how it is done or not.
believe me, i've gotten steamed about threads being deleted or people being told to shut up before but there is always someone suggesting another forum where those topics are welcome. i still find much of value here. oh well. chacon son gout or to each their own as they say in teh quebec, eh?

Solutions start with tollerance and forgiveness, this is something we should always keep in mind.

I will be tolerant and forgive if I am assured my respectful posts will not be deleted in the future. I am surprised more people aren't upset about their posts being deleted. How much time and effort do you put into them? I realize Bryan's time is a factor, but how is his time more important than mine and everyone else on this board? If I volunteer for a job I wouldn't slough it off because it became too much, I would find another solution. We really don't know if that is why Bryan deleted the thread. Those are reasons coco guessed for him.

pakd--
in the past i've enjoyed engaging in discussions with you many on many occasions. i really hope you will stay. here is what i think about deleting cy's post: yes i thought of the fact that he's a little younger than us, but i also realize that he's not an 8-year-old, you know? he's old enough to formulate his own belief systems and have intense discussions with people, so he's old enough to be responsible, as well. perhaps the best thing that could happen to him at this time in his life is the learning experience of realizing that certain types of language and rhetoric are unacceptable on a forum.

i wish you both the best and hope that you will stay; i will definitely not harbor any bad feelings toward cy. remember when he apologize the other day? that melted my heart and i immediately felt connected. it's the insults and ruthless comments that cause me to withdraw, especially when it's about someone near and dear to me like jonathan. but i can let that go in a heartbeat if i know that we will have inclusive and tactful conversations with one another.

let's move on together, okay?

Love,

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

I have so enjoyed our conversations too, Kwan.

Cy is my nephew. We have taken him into our home, something I have wanted to do since his conception. I introduced him to this board because I thought you all could teach him some things and I really think you have, thank you so much. He has a long way to go, but he is young and he will get there. We talked a lot about the things discussed here and his cynicism. I don't know if he will decide to stay or not, but MY issue is with Bryan. I hope if Cy does stay he will continue to learn from all of you. Please remember with him, patience is in order. I assure you he is just a sweet boy who has a lot to learn about life, love and people. He hasn't experienced a whole lot of love but we are working on that. He is getting gobs of it now. I think that will make a world of difference in his thinking.

I hope this is not the end for you and I! I feel that it is not!


With Love,
Kise'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2008 11:09PM by pakd4fun.

There has been more negativity, zealotry, bad language, deliberately hurtful words, strident postings, etc., here in the Off Topic section of the forum since serious discussions regarding the 2008 Presidential candidates began prior to the primary elections than the entire rest of the forums put together going back for more than a year..

I distinctly recall the day I first uttered the curse word f**k out loud in public to someone that was not another teenager..I was 13 years old..I was punished in 3 ways..First, I was made to go & make a public apology to the adult in question in front of my peers..Second, I had my liberty restricted for a month..Third, I got a whupping from my father for being deliberately disrespectful to an adult that in no way deserved that disrespect..

I remember one of my uncles telling me after the incident that the true mark of a civilized man or woman was their ability to communicate their ideas to another human being without raising their voice or using bad language in any of it's many forms..He said that for every curse word there were at least a half dozen words just as descriptive, some of which were in all likelihood more appropriate..He remarked that when a person that was not known for raising their voice or cursing resorted to doing so, they were much more likely to be taken seriously..

Bad language, whether over the internet or in person face-to-face, seems to be becoming the order of the day whenever people don't get their way, are contradicted, or disagreed with in any fashion..

My suggestion to those posters that continuously post using hurtful language is to allow a 30 minute time out after you finish typing your post..Walk away from the computer & go do something calming for at least 30 minutes..Then, return to the computer & carefully read what you have typed..Then, decide if the language that you have used to create that post is the type of language that you want to be known for..Because, once the Post Message button is clicked on those words are going to be on the internet for the rest of your life..Whether you like it or not, you are going to be known for what you posted on the web; so think carefully before you post..

There are no redeeming values to being known on the internet as a hateful, hurtful, zealous bully..We've got far too many people posting in the Off Topics forum that are coming across that way, at least part of the time..And, I agree with others that the negativity being embraced by certain people here in the Off Topics forum is upsetting considering the serenity espoused in most of the other sections of this forum..

Might I suggest to Bryan that if the forums are set up for it to be done so, that instead of deleting entire threads that a thread simply be closed to any further posts..With a sticky after the post's descriptor indicating that it has been closed to any further discussion..If necessary I can understand deleting individual posts within a thread..But, unless the majority of the posts in a thread are negative in a way that benefits no one; I don't see why entire threads are deleted instead of individual posts within the thread, or simply closing the thread to further discussion..

This way, myself & others won't feel as if all the time & mental energy that goes into compiling a thoughtful post has been deleted into cyberspace..Although I try not to let it become personal, I will admit to being mightily peeved when one of my thoughtful posts is summarily deleted along with other people's thoughtful posts, & one or two negative ones..

Bruce



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2008 01:03AM by baltochef.

bruce, i appreciate your suggestion about closing the thread but i think it pretty likely that people would read it and just start a new thread to carry on where it left off.

pakd4fun perhaps bryan will respond and let us know the why of the deleting the entire thread and if it were in fact due to what i suggested we could all be sensitive to that. moderating a site is a very large job, this i do know, and it is not possible to please everyone all the time doing it. this is a site about raw food, i doubt bryan signed up to moderate an extremely heated bunch of politcal threads but that is what he got hit with. and i am totally ok with my posts being deleted, they were read by all they were responding to after all and so not wasted in any way.

i missed your nephews appology, that was mature of him to do. he is at a tough stage in life right now and i am so glad that he has you as a support and source of love. that's so very important.

When I found out that my posts where deleted, I didn't believe it. I didn't and still don't understand why people see my posts offensive, well I can see a few places where I said something strongly, but these were all purely and simply how I believe. I was not trying to offend anyone at all. I was not trying to be aggressive or antagonizing. My words were simply who I am and how I feel about politics and philosophy. I believe in being straightforward and openly honest. And this is how I would like to be. And this is how I was writing.
I am personally apologizing to anyone that my posts offended, and if I hurt you with my words. But this sort of makes me unhappy, because my words are a reflection of who I am, so really I guess I am hurting you. I truly don't intend this. I would like to be on this forum, and I would like to learn to speak in "less offensive" ways, but I still believe in perfect openness and honesty. So I am never going to fully change many of the things that I say, because I think a person should say what they mean and mean what they say, but I am willing to reword anything, appropriately, that I recognize as may be offensive towards others.
And just before I wrote this, I said something on another thread, that might be deemed offensive, please don't take this to heart. I am merely saying what I believe in. Again I am sorry.

Bruce,

You really helped say a lot of what I am feeling and helped me not feel so alone.

Coco,

Thank you. I loved your post to cyclopsale in the deepak (Sp?) thread. It was so thoughtful and beautiful. You are such a supportive friend.

I am hoping Bryan addresses my issues.

With love,
Kise'

pakd4fun,

Your post getting deleted was not personal. Many people's posts were deleted.

First of all, this internet website is oriented towards raw foods, and the off topics forum is a place to talk about non-raw foods specific things. On the other raw forums here, if this kind of trouble were to arise, I would take more time to cull out the offensive posts, including the posts that were responses to the offending posts, and clean things up. This take a considerable amount of my time to do this.

On the Off Topics forum, I have less time to spend doing this. Remember that I am a volunteer here, and I don't get paid for my time. And there were people who were being abused in that post. So for me, it was expedient to delete the whole post, as that only takes 2 button clicks, as opposed to perhaps 10-20 clicks (plus my time).

There are political forums elsewhere on the internet where you can express your opinions with like minded folk.

Bryan,

I appreciate your responding to my complaints.

In a previous post kwan stated that you deleted an entire thread Suvine started because of rude comments on the main forum. So if this is true than no forum is safe from deleted posts.

I don't have any problem going elsewhere to discuss politics but the discussion I was on was here and the topic is irrelevant to my issue.

My time is also precious. I do not think the complaints of three people (unwarranted for all but one poster, IMO) is reason to disregard my time as well as MANY others. I think if someone is offended by comments that go against their beliefs and ideals they should be given the advice not to read them. Please don't mistake this to mean I think disrespect should ever be tolerated. Much more of my, and many other's, time was lost to this deletion than I am sure yours would have been finding and alternative solution.

I don't ever want to feel like if I put time and thought into a post that it could be deleted before I can even post it, which is what happened yesterday.

Hi Bryan,

I think I know how you feel. I myself do some voluntary works on regular basis and although so far I haven't receive any complaints from others, I'm already getting a little tired because it takes away so much of my time and I can't do the things that I want to do. Plus, it's hard to satisfy everyone I encounter and it's also not easy to cope with everyone's character...

Having said that, pakd4fun and cyclopsale, I'm not trying to say that you're wrong... it's just that it seems like we live on the same planet but we actually live in our own world. We, as humans, can hardly understand others with different characters, you know.

All the Best,
Wong

<<<Having said that, pakd4fun and cyclopsale, I'm not trying to say that you're wrong... it's just that it seems like we live on the same planet but we actually live in our own world. We, as humans, can hardly understand others with different characters, you know. >>

I really don't know. I have no idea how this point is relevant to this issue. I have four siblings, three kids and a husband, believe me I understand others with different characters. I don't believe I have ever had the opportunity to live in my own world, nor do I want to. As I am writing this post I have had three conversations with the kids. I also put not only time but a lot of money and heart in rescuing animals and have for 30 years so I understand volunteering. I do it because I choose to. It is something I want to do. I commend people who volunteer, but I think it should be beneficial to them as well as others. If it becomes a burden maybe they should rethink it and "give back" in another way or adjust their attitude toward it.

Blue_sky,

Maybe you are not grasping how it feels to work really hard on a post after thinking about it instead of sleeping the night before only to have it deleted with one click of a button. I worked nearly an hour on a post no one saw. There were over 30 posts on that thread that I wanted to go back and read and ponder. I was learning from it and so were MANY of us. And because one person was being rude, Bryan obliterated all of it. All this because Bryan feels his time is more important than ours, which simply isn't true. I have read some of Bryan's poingnant posts and I imagine he would be upset if this had happened to him. I think a little empathy is in order here. Some people are not upset about it and that is fine but some of us are. It isn't right and no matter how much you sympathize with Bryan's job as a voluntary moderator, nothing will change that what he did to me (and others) was wrong. I/we deserve an apology and some kind of assurance that the time we spend on our posts will be respected here on this forum.

pakd--

While I understand why it was vastly simpler for Bryan to just delete the whole thread, I do empathize with those of you (hey, self included!) who had their messages deleted. I've experienced the shock on other forums, as well, of having a thread deleted and realizing something I had written-- an expression that I really liked and considered thoughtful and well-written-- was lost and gone forever. I know this probably doesn't help or provide a solution, because there will probably be times in the future when for one reason or another a thread has to be deleted, but I resonate with what you're saying.

Love,

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Thanks Kwan. Just having my feeling validated feels good.

Bryan,

I was thinking about your reply to me and I wanted to try to communicate more clearly.

I get that it was easier (two clicks as opposed to ten or twenty) to make kwan and two other people satisfied than it would have been to respect my, and many other's including Kwan's, posts. I get that you're a volunteer and the task can be daunting. I adopted a horse last year. I had to stick my arm up his butt past my elbow during a hurricane two weeks ago because he was dying from colic . I know volunteering at a job can be a daunting task!!!!! Believe me, I get what you are saying! After getting all that, you were still wrong and I know it. I am sorry that you may not learn from this but I hope you do.

As I am writing this I am thinking I hope it makes it to the board because I don't know if I could express this so well again and that is not how I want to live. I don't trust you with that kind of control over my time any longer. My efforts have to count because I keep my life very full of all things that matter to me. I am not leaving here with hard feelings but I am sad because I have enjoyed posting here. I can still benefit by reading but will no longer be posting. Thank you for all that you do and all I have and will learn from you.
------------------

Thanks to everyone here. You guys really are the best.

With love,
Kise'