"Cardiologist Pim van Lommel did a monumental study of near-death experiences--which raises fascinating questions about life after death, DNA, the collective unconscious, and everyone's karma."

[www.odemagazine.com]

They're doing a fairly large new study on NDE's.

[forums.civfanatics.com]

Never had an OBE myself.

its interesting
that in other cultures the NDE ( near death experience) is not only taken for granted
but different aspects of it are actually cultivated ( for some people... like shamans or leaders of a certain tribe/group) on a regular basis

a lot of the NDE talk of OBE ( out of body experiences)
and a lot of times, these 'exercises" are performed by shamans in order to heal others

some shamans soul travel into the ailing person's soul in order to "inhabit" their spirit so that they can investigate what is going on and then then can intuit better what to do or perform

so ... it is considered "natural" and even "required, expected " etc.

so... it seems kind of juvenile sometimes for the western medical sector to be making such a big deal out of what is completely taken for granted in other cultures

i also think that a lot of times when it is said " we are pressing forward to NEW grounds"

we are on the "cutting edge" of exploring "NEW" frontiers

i think that is actually a misnomer
and what they are ACTUALLY doing is just unearthing buried information from the past

knowledge that has been ancestrally stored... like a sea leviathan under fathoms and fathoms of water

and they are simply allowing it to surface upwards slowly but surely

but the leviathan isn't really "new" grounds

the only thing that is "new" is the acknowledgement of it

la_veronique,

I agree. It's an interesting time to be alive, in that respect.


Omega,

Thanks for this post--if I didn't read Ode, I'd be a drone!

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> so... it seems kind of juvenile sometimes for the
> western medical sector to be making such a big
> deal out of what is completely taken for granted
> in other cultures

I wouldn't say it's making a big deal about it.

Very few scientists expect a positive result from this study but somehow it got some funding.

I'm curious to see if anything comes of it.

As for "juvenile"? Are you suggesting testing theories instead of just blinding believing them is juvenile? Cause I'd say it's the definition of maturity.

Some cultures, if you got the bone pointed at you for breaking a taboo & asked to leave you'd be dead in a day or two, lost without the tribe. Here we can choose our own tribes & our own values.

communitybuilder

<<As for "juvenile"? Are you suggesting testing theories instead of just blinding believing them is juvenile? Cause I'd say it's the definition of maturity.>>

absolutely it is "juvenile" and obviously it failed
if you read the article, it says that even though these people are fully cognizant and conscious, the machine is reading "flatline"

the machine is utterly totally and completely unable to detect test prove or disprove any of these experiences

and yet such NDE and OBE experiences have been happening with such ridiculous regularity ... and so many stories have ridiculously similarly parallels

from time immemorial

from all cultures

from all centuries

and yet the brain activity level machine reads "FLATLINE"

as in "DEAD" as in "no consciousness" as in "nothing is happening" as in " this experience didn't exist because our machines PROVED that NOTHING happened"

so those who for some bizarre reason still demand "proof" are obviously only able to get it through stories of the individuals themselves

notice that even though it was published in a "scientific" magazine
there was still no quantitative "proof"

i wonder why

so yeah, it is juvenile to try and PROVE what cannot be proved

except through individual experience


i say that those who want PROOF

usually have never experienced

and those who experience

wouldn't even consider demanding a "proof"

have you ever heard the saying " You just had to be there"

this quote is apropos in such instances

either you were "there" and thus you don't have to prove or disprove what you experienced

or you were not there and will endlessly try to come up with some new gadget, device "testing" machine and try to 'prove" that which cannot be proven



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2009 11:46PM by la_veronique.

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i say that those who want PROOF
>
> usually have never experienced
>
> and those who experience
>
> wouldn't even consider demanding a "proof"

Amen sistah



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2009 12:00AM by Omega.

CB, thanks for the link to that new study.

I'm curious: how would it affect your belief system if the study ends up demonstrating that resuscitated individuals were able to identify the images?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2009 12:14AM by Omega.

la_veronique

Quote

so yeah, it is juvenile to try and PROVE what cannot be proved

Forgot the machine. Do you read my article about the other study?

Anything can be proven (or disproven) with enough imagination.

If you're afraid to be tested or bristle when it comes to the thought of being tested that's something to deal with within yourself.

For many reasons many people feel angry when someone demands they "prove themselves", this could be related to early childhood or the school system or any number of things.

However you can't expect people to just believe you on faith alone. It's human nature to be inquizitive & curious and not just accept things blindly.

The whole "if you have to ask, you'll never know" thing strikes me as a bit snobby & obnoxious personally.



Omega Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CB, thanks for the link to that new study.
>
> I'm curious: how would it affect your belief
> system if the study ends up demonstrating that
> resuscitated individuals were able to identify the
> images?


If it could be validated agian & again consistently I would be curious & interged & read about it alot. It would change my perceptions to be sure & probably my values, I'm not sure how. I like to think I would still value life as much & treasure it as much as I do know even believing it continued after death.

CB

i tried to click on the link
but it failed access
will try it again

yeah, perhaps i do bristle and i am arrogant
or perhaps like everyone else i simultaneously teeter between knowing as a matter of fact nonchalantly that spirit world exists and is eternal

and is frustrated that this seeming knowing is just one part of the equation and the rest is still vastly unknown
perhaps i want life and love to go on and on forever and ever

perhaps i am afraid of life going on forever and ever and ever

perhaps i waver between wishing to continue on

and wishing to be like a rock

mute silent and non cognizant

is this peace?

i don't know

or maybe i do

perhaps i was a rock a fish a bird a white pebble washed ashore

perhaps i have known perfect peace a million times

and thus yearn always to go back to it once more

Those people haven't really died, they are still alive. If you can flatline and then be "brought back to life" then flatlining isn't the same as death. Momentary flatlines do damage but they have to be prolonged to measure death.

The experiences these people had "near death" occurred under conditions when their brains were still working.

I'd like to see them "bring back" a body that has gone through rigor mortis and stinks of decay all over.

perhaps u are right and scientifc inquiry is just a wonderful miraculous wondering wondering wondering

like little babies attracted to shiny baubles, fragrant trees, mesmerized by concentric circles growing every larger in a pond after the pebble has been thrown

perhaps it is tiresome to be inveigled in a web of deceit because i still feel i know that which cannot be defined and certain people madden me when they insist that it does not exist

perhaps it was just a fantastic self projection on my part as you pointed out

and it was only me that was troubled by the simultaneous dichotomous existence of belief and disbelief and wondering where to even BEGIN to come up with a QUESTION
which leads to

faith and lack of faith

wonder and disenchantment

all the time

all at once

never ending

ceaseless

perhaps i wonder why i even think at all

and it bothers me when there is too much thinking

because i wonder if it will really create peace

of simply foster more contention

perhaps i don't care anymore

and will be like i always am

with a big question mark in my mind

and feeling that this is the closest i will get to the truth

a big question mark

that is my answer

mystery is the answer

like love is a mystery

the mystery is the answer

at least for me

and that will be good enough for me

arugula:


<<I'd like to see them "bring back" a body that has gone through rigor mortis and stinks of decay all over.>>

i'm sure Lazarus was wondering when he could take a shower LOL

You're alright veronique. Our minds (or, er, spirits) think different but I appreciate your presence here in this no-place that is the Internet.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those people haven't really died, they are still
> alive. If you can flatline and then be "brought
> back to life" then flatlining isn't the same as
> death. Momentary flatlines do damage but they have
> to be prolonged to measure death.
>
> The experiences these people had "near death"
> occurred under conditions when their brains were
> still working.

See the Pam Reynolds case in the BBC documentary I posted here: [www.rawfoodsupport.com] (starting at the 1:55 mark of part 3 and continuing into part 4). All blood had been drained from her brain in order to perform brain surgery, bringing the brain to a metabolic standstill. She had a near death experience during that operation.

> I'd like to see them "bring back" a body that has
> gone through rigor mortis and stinks of decay all
> over.

Such a body could no longer support a spirit, so it wouldn't be possible.

<< I'd like to see them "bring back" a body that has
> gone through rigor mortis and stinks of decay all
> over.

Such a body could no longer support a spirit, so it wouldn't be possible.>>

yeah, and also.... i wouldn't want to be in the same room without a clothespin on my nose

[i still feel i know that which cannot be defined and certain people madden me when they insist that it does not exist ]

I feel that way sometimes about certain issues in life. People who eat animals, show contempt for the environment in various ways, mean people.

But I don't feel that way about people who do not share my lack of beliefs in specific dogma and a lot of what falls under the "spiritual" category qualifies, to me.

I think it's more important to focus on the here and the now, to make a difference here and now, to instill values in children here and now. I don't see the attraction of the magical mystical. It never did anything for me. Oh, how I would love to have a guardian angel, though.

Quote

I don't see the attraction of the magical mystical. It never did anything for me.

Me neither.

I remember watching Field of Dreams & Angels in the Outfield as a kid & thinking they were both terrible.

What's the point in working hard for anything or trying to understand the universe if God or magic or fairies can just change it all, make it easy or hard or change the rules.

Even then I thought it was dumb. That and church. I hated Disney & all the stupid garbage kids were "supposed" to like.

IMO, even an inkling of magical thinking makes you lose your egde, waiting for "God" to bend the rules for you.

Mysticism breeds complacency & comfort in the midst of inaction. That's why it's always been so popular & so encouraged.

It can breed friendship & facilitate bonding but so can sharing a beer or an STD. Why not ditch the shared delusion & just connect?

in the end

we experience whatever it is we experience

that's it

CB--
What a great/funny post! I see it things a little differently from you, but definitely resonate with your feelings, especially about the way mysticism can breed inaction and apathy.

>I remember watching Field of Dreams & Angels in the Outfield as a kid & thinking they were both terrible.<

** Ha! I hated them to, but for slightly different reasons: I've always been somewhat mystically inclined, so I just thought they were inauthentic and boring.

>Even then I thought it was dumb. That and church. I hated Disney & all the stupid garbage kids were "supposed" to like.<

** You were smart. When I was really little, I was pretty programmed; later I hated church and was really pissed that my brother didn't have to go, but my mom made me go.

>IMO, even an inkling of magical thinking makes you lose your egde, waiting for "God" to bend the rules for you.<

** My sense is that a lot of what's termed magical thinking is just plain erroneous and counter-productive, but some of what's termed 'magical thinking' is right on. What if a lot of the 'rules' are actually man-made and artificial, and in reality we don't have to obey them?

>Mysticism breeds complacency & comfort in the midst of inaction. That's why it's always been so popular & so encouraged.<

** I always have seen a certain type of meditative path in that light too (the kind where people are almost totally introspective and removed from the world): almost as if instead of engaging in life, you just hit the snooze button. It always seemed like such a shame to me to disengage from life like that. But on the other hand, I believe that to fully be present in my life, I have to go within regularly and be in touch with my inner being and intuition.

It can breed friendship & facilitate bonding but so can sharing a beer or an STD. Why not ditch the shared delusion & just connect?

** lol A lot of Zen practitioners would agree.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

communitybuilder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's the point in working hard for anything or
> trying to understand the universe if God or magic
> or fairies can just change it all, make it easy or
> hard or change the rules.

The "rules" are that we all have 100% free will, and that God is non-interventionist. If God could intervene, it would infringe on our free will.

(OTOH, Christian rhetoric often sounds like it is encouraging people to give up their free will.)

> IMO, even an inkling of magical thinking makes you
> lose your egde, waiting for "God" to bend the
> rules for you.

I'm not waiting for God to bend the rules. What I'm doing is learning what the REAL rules of the universe are (not what man or religion says they are), and using those in my own life to empower myself to help heal the planet.

Religion doesn't have a monopoly on "God," and just because religion has brainwashed people to think about God in a certain way, doesn't mean it's true.

> Mysticism breeds complacency & comfort in the
> midst of inaction. That's why it's always been so
> popular & so encouraged.

Religion may be the opiate of the masses, but IMO genuine spirituality is a completely different thing -- highly personal -- and highly empowering.

It is not magical thinking, but quite the opposite -- understanding the TRUE nature of reality, understanding the REAL reason why we're here.

The first half of the movie "The Matrix" is a perfect allegory for this. Who was more empowered -- Thomas Anderson or Neo? Was the "real world" just magical thinking on the part of Thomas Anderson? Or was it the Matrix -- so called "reality" -- that was in fact composed of magical thinking?

Although the movie was a work of fiction, the Matrix/real world structure is totally analogous to the nature of our reality and the human condition.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2009 07:12PM by Omega.

"What if a lot of the 'rules' are actually man-made and artificial, and in reality we don't have to obey them?" - Sharrhan

They are.


"** I always have seen a certain type of meditative path in that light too (the kind where people are almost totally introspective and removed from the world): almost as if instead of engaging in life, you just hit the snooze button. It always seemed like such a shame to me to disengage from life like that. But on the other hand, I believe that to fully be present in my life, I have to go within regularly and be in touch with my inner being and intuition." - Sharrhan

Oh definitely. If you don't pause & look within you won't know what you're looking for.


"I'm not waiting for God to bend the rules. What I'm doing is learning what the REAL rules of the universe are (not what man or religion says they are), and using those in my own life to empower myself to help heal the planet. " - Omega

Sounds good to me!


"It is not magical thinking, but quite the opposite -- understanding the TRUE nature of reality, understanding the REAL reason why we're here."

The reason why we're here is up to us. There is no Mr. Anderson to combat, we just have to choose why to live & then do it.