"He" seems like a good soothing balm (albeit a placebo balm) for people in distress who have little to no real life support from tangible, actual beings.

Almost everybody starts out in their spiritual evolution believing in a parent-like god who is alternately angry or loving, or a king-like god who is governing and 'reigning on high' -- based on what we know and learn culturally-- so people act like children or subjects in relation to what they conceive to be 'God.' It's only much later that we realize 'IT' is US: 'I Am That I Am;' 'So'ham;' 'I and my Father are One;' etc. At first there's a tremendous sense of separation from the Unifying Field of Love and Intelligence (okay, God ;-p); as one meditates and matures spiritually they gradually realize there is no separation at all, and IT is the substance of all things, including us.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

communitybuilder,

I have real life support from tangible, actual beings. This doesn't obviate my believing in a higher power. I agree with what Kwan writes, but I shall put it more crudely: I had a dad already, don't need another one, thanks. Hence my higher power is non-anthropomorphic. For others it's simply non-paternalistic, or it's a plural, or whatever. But it's still a "source" one can rely on for achieving equilibrium in one's life when the world is looking particularily gruesome, and as a reminder of one's insignificance, which promotes humility. Lastly, a belief in some greater supernatural force can keep even those of us that sin seldom ; ) on the path of righteousness by acting as a constant reminder that one's perfected self is somewhere on the horizon and worth striving for. The most important and essential people in my life rarely fulfill this purpose. Indeed, what a burden that would be for them to shoulder. For the Ahura Mazda, however--no biggie!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/27/2009 09:28PM by Tamukha.

According to Gallup, 8 million Americans have had near-death experiences. Seek and ye shall find...

[books.google.com]

[www.youtube.com]

NDEs have increasingly been one of my guiding lights over the past 20 years or so, at the same time that I've been busy investigating and discarding my belief in a great many teachings and psycho-spiritual systems. NDEs are intriguing and amazing testaments to the fact that there's something going on that's larger than just our little camping trip on earth, and that just because we can't quite figure out what eternity means yet doesn't mean it ain't so. I especially love the NDEs where people left their bodies and saw/heard things they couldn't possibly have known if they were just unconscious (like one person saw a pair of shoes outside on a ledge on one of the floors of the hospital), and later reported them back to their astonished relatives, doctors and/or nurses.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

kwan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Almost everybody starts out in their spiritual
> evolution believing in a parent-like god who is
> alternately angry or loving, or a king-like god
> who is governing and 'reigning on high' -- based
> on what we know and learn culturally-- so people
> act like children or subjects in relation to what
> they conceive to be 'God.' It's only much later
> that we realize 'IT' is US: 'I Am That I Am;'
> 'So'ham;' 'I and my Father are One;' etc. At first
> there's a tremendous sense of separation from the
> Unifying Field of Love and Intelligence (okay, God
> ;-p); as one meditates and matures spiritually
> they gradually realize there is no separation at
> all, and IT is the substance of all things,
> including us.

But if God is us then there is no God, just the best we can be (God) and the parts of us we don't like (um, ego, devil, whatever word we want to use to hate on that part of ourself).


Omega Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to Gallup, 8 million Americans have had
> near-death experiences. Seek and ye shall
> find...

I plugged in the toaster & dropped it in the tub with me but I didn't see God, although I did hear a faint otherworldly chuckling as they rushed me to the ER. Could have been the doctor though...

cb,

But if God is us then there is no God, just the best we can be (God) and the parts of us we don't like (um, ego, devil, whatever word we want to use to hate on that part of ourself).

Right.

I plugged in the toaster & dropped it in the tub with me but I didn't see God, although I did hear a faint otherworldly chuckling as they rushed me to the ER. Could have been the doctor though...

I hope you are joking.

he is.

the divine spark of life that animates us and connects us all is G_D to me. that's what i hear when people speak to me of G_D. might not be what they are trying to say, specifically, but taking it in in my own context sure does make communicating with them easier. i even go to church events with my mom, friends and neighbours (menontite is my favourite). the community and fellowship is G_D energy to me. jesus consciousness, if you will.
i am pretty put off by all the meat most religious people consume though, i don't understand how they reconcile that with their religious principles. runs contrary to everything they stand for so far as i can see. it's surprising.

Why is it "too bad"?

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why is it "too bad"?


Because some people clearly derive alot of comfort from this belief (though others drive themselves insane with it). Kind of like people in cargo cults get some comfort from their beliefs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2009 11:23PM by communitybuilder.

Hey CB
I for one definately believe in god, but only as an infinity that is most closely described as love. I have come to understand that there is alot more to love than what we are currently aware of.

Given that our science breaks down in so many places I would ask you, do you feel that you truely know what you are ? Also, where does that understanding come from etc... What is the purest substance that you are, and what is it ?

I pray all the time. But, the answer is always "No."

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I pray all the time. But, the answer is always
> "No."
Never any Yeses?
The way people Pray is in error. Instead of making your
prayer a prayer of Want, or Need, try making it a prayer
of Thanksgiving.
Elevate yourself in prayer, or conscious thought.
Don't buy into the 'filthy rags' image.....WY
[www.biblegateway.com];

Lightform Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Given that our science breaks down in so many
> places I would ask you, do you feel that you
> truely know what you are ? Also, where does that
> understanding come from etc... What is the purest
> substance that you are, and what is it ?

Who I am is fluctuating.

Once I was a baby, someday (if I'm lucky) I'll be an old man, then I'll be worm food. In the meantime I'm whoever I want to be.

[ Given that our science breaks down in so many
places]

What places are those? Could you please elaborate?

In a different thread, communitybuilder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That we can't edit our goddamn posts past three
> minutes or something.

It's funny that an atheist would use the 6th word in that sentence.

i dunno, i use the words "retarded" and "bast@rd" as curse words all the time. i've even been known to use the "C" word on occasion. i don't think it's at all reflective of my inner beliefs. i'm just cursey. heh.
though i do try not to say G_D at all (like gotdamn or oh my g*d), only so as not to be offensive to others. i know it's a touchy subject, like politics, sex and income. i veer away from public discussion of those too .

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> just cursey. heh.
> though i do try not to say G_D at all (like
> gotdamn or oh my g*d), only so as not to be
> offensive to others.
W.C.Fields said "Godfrey Daniel" and
"Mother-of-Pearl" in his movies in place of profanity...WY

my mom says fuggernuts lol

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Omega Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In a different thread, communitybuilder Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That we can't edit our goddamn posts past three
> > minutes or something.
>
> It's funny that an atheist would use the 6th word
> in that sentence.


I used the word "@#$%&" when I was a virgin too.

Narz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bryan Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Why is it "too bad"?

> Because some people clearly derive alot of comfort from this belief

Narz,

If what you are doing isn't working for you, perhaps you ought to try something different.

By the way, I am a big fan of believing in nothing.

Believe in nothing, everything is sacred. Believe in anything, nothing is sacred.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2009 08:41AM by Bryan.

[If what you are doing isn't working for you, perhaps you ought to try something different.]

There's no on/off switch for me. Much as I'd like to believe in a big father in the sky always looking out for me and wanting to give me eternal reward or punishment for my deeds or beliefs during a short period of time, it does not compute. I believe that religiosity is not only genetic but also a bigger component of one's mindset when one is less educated, especially in the sciences.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2009 06:00PM by Omega.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> I believe that religiosity is not only
> genetic but also a bigger component of one's
> mindset when one is less educated, especially in
> the sciences.


Wow, I'm surprised arugula! I enjoy reading your posts because you usually write such well researched scientific information. I've learned from your posts and respect you so I say this with intellectual curiosity, and not as a personal challenge...That quote doesn't come across as anything that is scientifically or statistically based in any way.

What about Einstein? His belief in God is well documented. There are many other religious people who are/were scientists that the world of science owes a great deal.

I have been a believer my whole life, usually very involved in my church, but I'm well educated, scientifically knowledgeable, and research oriented. I celebrate God's Love every Sunday with a great group of people. Among them are doctors, research scientists, professors, teachers, musicians, a public defender, artists, an architect, and even a vegan chef with a PHD in biology, as well as many other intelligent well educated, and less educated people.

Not believing in the existence of God is an intellectual choice you have made, and I respect that choice. Do you really want to make a blanket implication that someone who has a greater amount of faith in God does so because he or she is less educated or somehow genetically different from a non-believer? Or that the more education somehow equals less devotion to ones religion? My religion and faith are a large part of how I view the world and approach life, but why would this have anything to do with my thirst for knowledge in sciences, cultures, etc? Being religious does not have to equal being ignorance or intolerant. Unfortunately, there are many who use their religion as a weapon to help them remain ignorant and intolerant. That's the fault of those individuals, not a characteristic of being religious. Don't you agree?

Bryan :

Quote

By the way, I am a big fan of believing in nothing.

If you think you believe in nothing you're fooling yourself but I don't think you really believe that.

swimmer, in general as education improves religiosity decreases. This is apparent worldwide.

I don't buy the "genetic component" to religiosity though, maybe it's a small piece of the puzzle.

Not believing in God isn't really a choice anymore than not believing it's summer in March is a choice. I got outside, there's snow, it's winter, there is no choice involved, simply acknowledging reality. Belief is a choice, disbelief is the default. Are you making a choice not to believe in a purple snake growing out of your forehead?

It would be kind of cool to be able to convince myself it was summer in the winter though!

communitybuilder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I used the word "@#$%&" when I was a virgin too.

If you were anti-sex and used that word it would more closely resemble the subtle irony I was initially pointing out.

communitybuilder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> swimmer, in general as education improves
> religiosity decreases. This is apparent
> worldwide.

Where? In third world countries where religion is used to oppress and suppress the people? I doubt you will find that in first or second tier countries with established higher education systems.


>
> I don't buy the "genetic component" to religiosity
> though, maybe it's a small piece of the puzzle.

I'm glad you don't. Perspective must be kept when working with "genetic components". Genetics explains nothing about the existence of God. Mapping the where, figuring out the mechanics of how, does not explain the summation of the whole. Understanding a piece of the puzzle has nothing to do with the existence of a Creator of the entire puzzle.

Science and belief in God are not at odds in any way. The existence and use of science explains the mechanics of the life. The existence of God explains the miracle of life.

>
> Not believing in God isn't really a choice anymore
> than not believing it's summer in March is a
> choice. I got outside, there's snow, it's winter,
> there is no choice involved, simply acknowledging
> reality. Belief is a choice, disbelief is the
> default. Are you making a choice not to believe
> in a purple snake growing out of your forehead?
>
> It would be kind of cool to be able to convince
> myself it was summer in the winter though!


Sorry, but I'm not buying that one. It would seem to me it's a choice either way. You choose to drink a glass of water or you choose to not drink. You choose to follow a religion, and believe in God, or you choose not to. Choosing not to to believe in the existence of something does not negate that existence.

You pose an age old argument that can not be proven this side of a grave, except for the second coming happening before our eyes...Since neither side of your argument can be proved in any clear way, it comes down to respect. A fundamental right in this country is to believe in your choice of religion, or your choice not to believe. Therefore the only real way to honor that right is to respect other people for their beliefs, and respect what they may benefit from those beliefs.

swimmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You choose to follow a religion, and believe in
> God, or you choose not to.

Or one can choose to believe in God and not follow a religion!

> Choosing not to believe in the existence of something does not
> negate that existence.

Beautifully put swimmer.

Swimmer, I think your post is right on.

I'll add that IF a statistical correlation exists between education and religion, there's still no justification for believing that people with a higher education are right, and everybody else is wrong. A person with a "science" education knows about "science".

Most "highly" educated people don't know how to build a house or tend an orchard/garden. That doesn't mean that houses, orchards, and gardens don't exist. Why should we think that "highly" educated people would know anything about a subject that wasn't a requirement for their degree?

There's no reason to rely on the beliefs of science professors for the answer about the existence of god. Might as well ask all the farmers. Or all the beggars. Or all the disabled. Each of these have knowledge and an education that the other ones lack.

Now that we have more "scientific" education, do we have less murders, less wars?

Whether or not "religion" is correlated with "education" says nothing about whether or not atheism is a superior belief.

Another interpretation of an atheist/scientific education correlation could be that the more highly educated we are, the more detached we become from our spiritual selves. I'm not saying that's the case, but I can't say for certain that's not the case either.

Nobody knows all the answers of the universe. Until we do, the question of the existence of god remains an unknown.

Just as an atheist is entitled to tolerance for their nonbelief, a believer is entitled to tolerance for their belief.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2009 11:52PM by suncloud.

There is no relationship between scientific education and genuine spirituality, as the latter is a matter of the heart, not the head.

God will never be found in the head only. That is like a person looking for their keys in the wrong place, and then determining that the keys are lost since they can't be found there.