This caught my eye in the news today

[www.msnbc.msn.com]

I will nail my colours to the mast and say that in my opinion children should never, under any circumstances be hit. By that I include smacked, tapped or any other euphemism for hitting.

To me any type of smacking is child abuse.

What do you think?

I AGREE 100%!!!

New Zealand passed an anti-smacking law about two years ago. I am proud to live in a country where that is the law.

Controlling a child with aggression teaches the child that inflicting pain on others is the way to get people to do what you want. Everyone wants respect. Teaching children to respect others requires that we respect them as well.

There are MANY different ways to discipline a child. The best way is to set up situations so that good behaviors are facilitated and bad ones are avoided. The statement that she was "trapped on an airplane, with virtually no way to distract or console a child" is ridiculous. What parent goes on a trip without planning and taking things to distract a child? How does she console the child when not on a plane? If she is at her wit's end, she could ask for help. Besides being cruel to the child, hitting a child on an airplane will only result in a crying child - not good in an enclosed space with other passengers. If time out is used, take the child to the tiny toilet room and go inside and have the child sit on the closed lid for the set time or until crying stops.

The trick is for people to think about creative options/solutions.

I remember the first time I was ever smacked. My aunt took me to town with her. I was dipping my foot off the curb as we walked down a sidewalk. She told me to stop, but I didn't. After telling me again and me doing it again, she swatted me on my bottom. I was probably four years old. I STILL remember how indignant I felt about that. How many alternatives did she have? She could have had me hold her other hand so that I was on the building side and not the street side as we walked on the sidewalk, preventing the problem altogether. She could have given me an explanation. She could have talked with me as we walked to give me something else to be amused by. Etc., etc., etc. The point is that adults have infinite options; it's just that abuse isn't one of them.

SO, WHAT DO I THINK?

I think all hitting is abuse. I expect to never be hit and I will never hit anyone of any age.


My favorite raw vegan

Do you guys have kids? Or the people on that flight or writing that article?
Whenever I read a discussion like this I shake my head a little. YOU just don't know how you would parent until you actually do it yourself. Sorry to tell you but it's the truth. It's nothing like you think it is, all this rationalising you think you're going to do with an unreasonable, shrieking three year old who's kicking and biting to get you to let go of their hand so they can run out into traffic. You think they listen? HA! They Never listen!

Even with 4 much younger siblings and years of babysitting and childcare under my belt I was STILL taken by absolute surprise at the realities of raising your own child. You say things and make choices and do things in ways that you never could have imagined. I'm telling you, you have NO idea...

I'm not saying that I support spanking here but I am saying that for a non-parent to discuss what they think appropriate parenting techniques are is utterly laughable. Sorry guys, walk a mile in those shoes first please.

Also, I have to say I DO agree with the last statement of that article. It's nice that someone felt inclined to intervene for that child (so young, that wee baby) but why wouldn't someone help her when her baby was freaking out and she was obviously struggling? If we're going to start watching out for each other it would be a bit more helpful if it was done BEFORE things reach crisis level.
Travelling with kids is a hell ride, I personally hate it like nothing else. It would be so great if the public service industry recognized this and actually had some sort of plan to make it less horrible for all concerned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2010 12:16PM by coco.

Coco - why do you assume that I don't have children. I have 3 actually and have smacked 2 of them once only when I lost my temper - I regretted it bitterly. My daughter I have never smacked in her life.

They are 23, 20 and 13. So I think i have some idea!!!

So I've walked in the shoes and can categorically say that smacking is wrong - end of.

Full disclosure: I am childless.

My feeling about this incident is that even a lower primate mother knows not to hit her crying infant.

My feeling about physical discipline is that hitting, smacking, spanking are never warranted. I know this may sound absurd to some parents, but let me explain: many years ago, I studied to be a Montessori preschool teacher(ages 2 1/2 to six). Many times, in the first school in which I was placed as an intern, I spent 8 hour days alone with 11 little ones of various stages of psycho-emotional development in a poorly stocked classroom, without a supervising teacher[a violation of my internship]. A parent at conferences said something like, "I couldn't handle this many kids acting up without spanking someone." I replied, "Well, I can't legally do that, so I have to use other methods. You can too." She sort of @#$%& her head and said, "You know, I do only have two of them. I guess I could." This was such a "duh" thing to me. Countless times I felt myself ready to explode at the antics of that group of three-year-olds, or those two five-year-olds over there. But my little voice always reminded me that, being children, they had less control over their behavior than I had, and that, as an adult, it was my job to maintain control at all times, to model self control, thereby initiating the beginnings of self discipline in my charges. I had them longer each day than their own families, and in me they always got an adult who was even keel and dealt with them firmly without violence. On two occasions over two years, I had to hold a child in a seated position while they were in raging tantrums until they calmed down; this was the closest we ever came to using physical duress and it wasn't hurtful. Consistently using positive discipline methods is crazy stressfull, but mostly to the adult; children respond to it quickly because they instinctively know when they're being disrespected. It took great effort to see the affects[and many instances of pulling onto the side of the road for a good primal scream on the way home from work], but boy was it worth it.

My mother used positive discipline and reinforcement intuitively, but there was one time, when my brother and I had gotten up to some serious mischief, when she went berserk, completely out of character, and whipped us with a belt. She suffered from remorse for that for decades. It had dimished her in her own soul, and it had diminished our respect for her, which, after all, depends largely on a parent's appearing to have control over each situation by demonstrating self control. Not always possible, but certainly worth striving for.

This is ironic, I agree with coco... Now I don't think a could should be treated anywhere like how I was as a child, on the mild days I was beat with a belt or ruler till I had large red welts, on the bad days i was thrown across rooms, even punched a few time... I have been babysitting for most of my life, often, and there are situations where no matter what a kid will get themselves severely hurt or even killed if you don't give them a little swat, you don't have to beat a kid, but a little swat gets their attention, lets them know there is a consequence to an extremely dangerous action that they don't understand how really dangerous it is, and that consequence is FAR less severe than the REAL ones would be... I dont know about you, but I will take a swat on the but vs my head and a headlight meeting at 50 mph any day...

One thing I have to point out, is some people say that kids only have to be spanked in those situations because its what they are used to, I personally have seen proof to the contrary, my niece had never been spanked once in her life, had never even been allowed to watch anything even remotely violent, she was prone to massive temper tantrums, in which she would break things, bite, hit, and kick if you tried to stop her from breaking things, previously she had even pushed me while I was walking by the edge of a brick wall which led to me hitting my head on the corner and having to go to the hospital and get 5 stitches, after it had happened, I just got up, turned around, and in a stern but even voice said "Kai, please don't push me, you hurt me very bad just now, and that is not nice." she started to say something but it was drowned out by her mother screaming at me that I had no right to talk that way to her child, (I mentioned my sister is kinda nuts in other posts haven't I?hehe) and that is the backstory for the next situation...

She was having a super bad temper tantrum, her mother was bleeding from multiple wounds, it started out with her throwing a book at their 32 inch LCD cause the cartoon she wanted to watch wasn't on... im sitting there watching this whole thing, and it just keeps getting progressively worse, a window even got broken, and my sister turns to me desperately and says "HELP ME" I get up right away, grab kai and I spank her once, not really hard, but hard enough for it to sting a little, I turn her around towards the tv and point at it and say "look what you did, you broke the tv, now nobody can watch it anymore, its broken like when the dog chewed up your dora doll." then turn her to the window, and the various toys and pointed those out to, then last to her mom, and I say "see her crying, how sad she is? she is bleeding too, you hurt her very bad, she is bleeding like that time you hurt your knee! and you did that to her!."

I made the connection between her actions, their consequences, and related them to the closest to those experiences she has had, and in a way she could understand, and with the shock of that small amount of physical pain from the single spanking to make it even more relate-able, to BEGIN the process of helping her to understand there are consequences to negative actions, some of those consequences are for her, which was easier for he to grasp at her age, but with that one spanking and talk, she at 3 years old was able to learn to empathize with others pain by comparing it to her own, and I have personally done something similar with 2 other children in my life, and have heard of many others... To this day, if she starts a temper tantrum and you start pointing out calmly the negative effect she is having, it stops the temper tantrum in its tracks, Ive never had to spank her again, only a couple other times for trying to run out into traffic.

I definitely dont believe in spanking as a primary form of punishment, but sometimes it is the ONLY thing that will work, either to save a child's life, or to teach them a lesson most people 10 times their age don't know.

(oh, and I cant even COUNT how many times Ive saved a childs life with a small little swat on the hand or spanking, the scariest that comes to mind though is when one of my nephews decided to play with a snake...which happened to be a baby rattle snake, I had a slim stick in my hand which I was about to break up for kindling for a camp fire, and I hear him say "snaaaake!" in a happy voice, and turn around, see the head, see the small amount of markings present, process that where we are, the only snakes that look even similar to that are deadly, that all takes a fraction of a second, and without really thinking I swing out with the stick smacking his hand with enough force to smack the snake out of it right as it was starting to turn around on him to bite, then fling the snake away with the stick a second later... that is the most severe smack I have ever given a kid, EVER, but he would have been dead in minutes If I hadn't, told him from now on not to touch any snakes unless I tell him its ok, and if he sees one to run away and tell me... well he never touched a snake without my permission again till he got old enough to learn which ones are ok to touch and which ones arent... now even though I hit him hard enough to where he even bled a tiny bit, can any one of you, for even half a second, think that it wasn't the right thing to do?

I will come out and say it straight up, if anyone thinks that was abuse or wrong in any way, I think you are a plain fool and I hope to God or whatever deity you choose that your children are never in a similar situation...I would never want the kinda pain that would be caused by the way such a situation would probably play out to be experienced by anyone...

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

one thing I have to point out, out of all the ways i was disciplined as a child, I found the being forcibly held in place the most traumatizing, however I must admit that may not be common, as it was do to the fact that it gave me flashbacks to when I was attacked...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

You can justify it all you like - hitting children is still child abuse in my opinion.

Then you already know my opinion, and if it was your child, they would be dead. good job!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

What on earth do you mean 'good job'? I don't understand. Is it an Americanism?

What I don't understand is how you have managed to swat or spank so many children - are they yours or do you look after lots of other people's children.

Your story with the snake I don't think is an example of hitting a child for hitting's sake - it was an extreme reaction in an extreme case - really how often does that happen in a life time? but your talk of how many children's lives you've saved by a swat or spank is extraordinary. This sounds very dodgy to me



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2010 01:37PM by flipperjan.

it was a sarcastic good job, as the death of a child would never be a good thing,but such attitudes could very well cause it, I didn't say ANYTHING about being a proponent of hitting a child for hitting's sake, im talking about doing it in rare circumstances where there is no other way to save them from a grave mistake, kai had even been going to a child psychologist for 6 months with no progress, and I cant even count how many children ive taken care of, it is NOT extraordinary at all, as ANYONE with kids would tell you, kids do stuff to put themselves in serious danger ALL the time... do you have your own or have you ever even cared for anybody else's children for long periods of time? I will be greatly surprised if you say yes.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Curator,

In the situation where, prior to forcing her to survey her havoc, you spanked your three-year-old niece, was the spank really necessary? I'm not chastising you; I'm genuinely wondering if just kneeling down at eye level while firmly holding her arms to her sides and calmly telling her to stop mightn't have worked as well. Now, I don't know the child, but she clearly came from a daily life where the adults were modeling lack of control to her and she was absorbing that aberrant behavior into her schema for what is acceptable. That you firmly explained to her what she had done[consequences] was exactly the right strategy to counteract the bad socialization she was getting elsewhere, and it's great that she's getting steadiness and if A then B from someone. That's what makes a self-disciplined adult.

The example of the boy and the snake, meh, that's different--it's a life-threatening emergency and if you weren't close enough to actually shake his hand or whatever, understandable. IMO.

A word about holding the children down: in each case, problems at home were manifesting as blind rage in the classroom. We knew the reason, so holding the child down, gently but firmly, while quietly and tenderly asking them to calm down, calm down, calm down, was employed. After calm was attained(and attain is the right word) and the hold was released, I followed with a quiet talk apart from the other children about how the ragee had been/was presently feeling and a reassurance from me that the child was safe with us and among people that cared about them. It really, really helped future behavior--no more freakouts the rest of the year.

Again, in all the years I cared for children, sometimes very cranky, willful, manipulative and even borderline pathological children, I was never allowed to use force and had to compensate with other methods. Now that I think about it, it isn't in my nature to uses physical force against someone who isn't threatening my life, so even if it had been legal to spank the lil' nippers, I wouldn't have under any circumstances.

Tam, it was tried that way previously by me during one of the days in which I was watching her, it lead to me having two black eyes and a bloody nose, sometimes people, nomatter what age, need something sufficiently shocking to shake them out of such destructive behaviors,sometimes a quick spank is the only thing that can do that, and help re-enforce the talk after wards that stops the behavior, believe me, even a gentle swat is the LAST choice in the way I approach teaching and disciplining children. also, even taking the time to just shake his hand even if I was close enough, he would have been dead, its a baby rattle snake, a full grown adult would die in under 15 minutes, a 4 year old...a couple minutes best case scenario... the fact the baby rattle snake waited as long as it did without striking was a miracle in and of itself...

I do believe I did already specify that my case was most likely an abnormal one, I doubt most other children would find being held down as terrifying as I did, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was questioning your method on that one, I only meant to state my own personal experience with it, because your description brought up the memories, and I have very little filter after not sleeping for 2 days, chances are, everything ive revealed about myself during this time, I will most likely regret in the next couple days, but at this moment, my brain is so numb I just dont care,LOL...

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

i dont have kids but boy can i ever sympathise with those mothers in the checkout lines trying to juggle a wallet groceries and 1 or more shrieking kids

ive offered to help more than i can count, while most just sigh and moan and grump grump grump

as far as spankings go , i got maybe 3 or 4 my entire child hood, i cant say i turned out any worse for wear, i do know i never did what i did a 2nd time lol

i swear when the 4 of us kids were acting up in the backseat my mom could backhand us all in one fell swoop without even turning around i think she was double jointed

im not saying its right or wrong but i do think alot of people have the potential to go above andd beyond any sort of reasonable force (and what exactly is reasonable force) and the potential for abuse is there, a smack is one thing, outright punching a kid out ...quite another !

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

yeah, thanks jodi, thats is definitely true, my main problem with spanking is that I personally think most parents do go way overboard, not always as severe as punching a kid, but far more than what was ever called for, and worse, is when they do it in a heated moment, they are angry or upset and they spank... thats one thing I have always made sure of, to NEVER even lightly swat a child if im angry... I could be wrong, but I think they can sense the anger behind the swat, and that is what has the highest chance of causing serious emotional harm...

I almost forgot to mention, I should look up the study again, but I read one a long time ago, that showed that amongst families polled,and subsequent criminal records checked, there was a higher incidence of crime committed by children who where never spanked, vs those who where spanked moderately, with the highest incidence being amongst children who where brutally abused... Im sure everyone will want to see the study, so I will get on searching for it, chances are even if I post it though, flipperjan will still probably not believe it...meh...nevermind, I dont care anymore, screw it...this is my last post on the subject, its not worth the effort.

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Curator,

Please get some sleep, for pity's sake, dear.

Curator, I think the study you reference is one by Marjorie Gunnoe. I can't find a site that posts it for free, but there are news articles referencing it, like this one:

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

I don't think swatting your niece was a terrible thing, wrong or ultimately harmful to her development. I think her continuing on with that sort of behavior might have been though. But a swat on the butt that's just enough to get attention without hurting is not what I call a spanking.
And the snake story, that's drastic but it's not a spanking either, that was a life saving manuever. Different.

I remember the two spankings I got from my parents as a child and both were terribly upsetting even though I wasn't physically hurt. I can honestly say that both times I deserved it, I knew I was being horrid and I just did it anyhow. I really wasn't leaving them with a lot of options in terms of getting me to behave. I was such a brat and I wasn't the least bit afraid of my parents and what they might do to me. They Never spanked. It was utterly ineffective on those two occasions, I remained unruly.
I have to say, considering my childhood, I would have been Incredibly traumatized by that holding down business though, OMG, there was NOTHING that could freak me out and turn me into a blindly, furiously raging lunatic faster than restraint. That does Not work for every child, lemme tell ya.

I think smacking, spanking or whatever is a mistake if it's done in a moment of anger, then it's just reactionary and it's purpose is for the parent to let off steam and that's nto right. But I don't know that a swat on that butt is always the wrong thing to do. As Curator has pointed out, sometimes a raging child endangers themselves and a butt swat gets them to immediately stop like nothing else.
Me personally, I'm a yeller. I don't know that that's any better than spanking though, sometimes I wonder. But you know what? I'm on my own here with these kids and no one is handing me a magic formula for getting them to behave so I do what I can do. We talk a lot but that doesn't always work. It's a hard row to hoe.

Veghunter, that study was... something. It looks like children raised under the spanking ban actually got mroe physcial abuse and grew up more violent. That doesn't prove much to me about spanking, that just illustrates a lack of control in the parents. Parenting is definately one of the most difficult, frustrating, madenning jobs there is and there is NO job training whatsoever, we dont' even teach kids in school the basics of running a household anymore. Taht sex ed stuff is considered, I don't know what, sexists now? So perhaps what should be looked at here is not a measure of the pros and cons of spanking, which I think is ridiculous, but a way to make parenting more managable. Of course that might entail restructuring economic values to allow people to actually spend time with their own families so you can bet we never, ever see it happen.

Spending more time with your family - you've hit the nail on the head there Coco.

It's so hard in the UK to make ends meet - parents are run ragged - it's probably the same in the States too.

No, I have not walked in the shoes of a 24/7 parent. My experiences are my own and have given me some insight, however.

For some years, I was a teacher of multiply handicapped deaf-blind students (yes, like Hellen Keller), but not as well-behaved! I have been hit, kicked, bitten (with the scar to prove it), have had my students throw extreme tantrums in public, and more. Reacting with corporal punishment of any kind would have meant I'd have been fired and sued by the parents - definitely not an option. I became very good at managing bizarre behaviors and unsafe behaviors without resorting to smacking - and with children who had EXTREMELY limited communication abilities.

I have had step children. For me it was not full time. Maybe that precludes me from expressing my opinion about parenting to full time parents, although I can assure everyone that step parenting presents its own challenges to managing children's behavior.

Feeling strongly about this topic and expressing it is hard to do without it feeling like an attack on people who hold different opinions. That's unfortunate. This is one of those contentious topics where people have vastly different opinions, many of which are based on their own childhood experiences. Stances are all over the map from I'll-never-treat-my-child-like-I-was-treated to I-was-beaten-and-I-turned-out-okay to I-was-never-spanked-and-will-never-spank-my-child to spare-the-rod-spoil-the-child and on and on. Yet there needs to be dialog. When it is so easy to feel defensive about our own beliefs, how can we promote dialog that leads to consensus? Is there any hope of agreement or is trying to influence the beliefs of others just a waste of time? What support can be given to parents to learn new disciplinary skills, especially those who think corporal punishment is the best or only method of discipline? What rights do children have? I don't want to offend anyone and yet I care deeply about these questions.


My favorite raw vegan

A consensus is great, but if somebody states that even in a case where it is absolutely needed to save a childs life that its still wrong and abusive to do so, no consensus can be reached with that person, that is just beyond unreasonable, everyone else in here but me and coco and jodi are like "absolutely not under no circumstances." me and coco and jodi are the only ones that have taken a moderate stance, believe me, a once or twice a year maximum, sometimes like with my niece only once in her entire life by me, and 1 other time by her mother, thats twice in 5 years... is hardly the "spare the rod spoil the child" type, I know I said I wasnt going to post anymore, but I did say on that specific subject, technically im just posting on the vast differences between a moderate approach, compared to an extreme one,lol... but seriously, those who wouldnt do it to save a childs life, or to save the child from severe self caused harm, that makes no sense even a tiny bit to me...I would get WHY they feel that way if they where severely abused as a child, but id say they should get some counseling...cause thats just overboard in the opposite direction...the stats speak for themselves. now that will be my final post...im horrible at this final post thing, hahahaha...

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Curator said

'(oh, and I cant even COUNT how many times Ive saved a childs life with a small little swat on the hand or spanking, '

now he is saying a once or twice a year maximum. Well which is it???

I still think that in nearly every case of 'saving a child's life' or 'severe self caused harm 'there is an alternative method to hitting that child.

I think a moderate stance is not hitting a child - I call hitting a child very extreme

per child flipperjan, I have taken care of MANY children, that adds up to a whoooole lot of times. analytical reasoning, good stuff,try it, I pretty much HAD to post again to clear things up because you didnt... can you come up with even one way you could have saved my nephew from the snake without hitting him? keep in mind a baby rattle snake takes 1 second max to strike once it decides to, and it doesn't let go till it has pumped all of its venom, can you think of anything?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

I think it's been said here more than once that the 'snake episode' counts as a very extreme example and yes you did brilliantly, well done.

I'm surprised that all the children you have taken care of required hitting.

Let's draw a line under this shall we - I don't think we are ever going to see eye to eye.

Trive and Tam, I do appreciate hearing both of your input regarding dealing with special needs and/or mulitple children without the option of swat, spank, etc. It's a good perspective, food for thought. And I don't discredit those experiences, nor those of a step parent or part-time parent. Those are valid experience for sure, but they are different than having your kids full time and/or on your own.
My sister splits care with her mother who she lives with and her ex who has their son half the time. I can see how her parenting approach is very different to mine already, even though her small boy is still pretty young. I am FAR stricter and always have been. Food is eaten at the table only, kids don't get to soak the bathroom with crazy splashing at bath time, if toys aren't being shared they get put away until later on, when I say something I mean it and I make sure I am willing to follow through No Matter What! She is far more gentle and flexible in her approach and I doubt she'll be a yeller but she has a lot of back up for when she gets tired, for when she has to clean up or make meals or whatever. There is only me, I have a limited amount of time and energy to take care of the kids and run the house so I run a pretty tight ship and they get less freedom in many ways than they might otherwise. I don't think it hurts them, I think it's just our lives and we are all living it to the best of our ability together and that's the way of things. Certainly if I could have it all my way we'd have way more time for fun and games and play and way less housework and tired mummy but that's an ideal and not by any means neccessary for raising happy, healthy kids.
I could never afford the time to hold one struggling child still in my lap until he or she finally calmed down, the other one would get into something that needed my attention just as much, you can bet on it. If I am ever in a situation where I feel that a swat on butt or hand is the only option that time and circumstance allow, I will use it. But you know what? If my sister was reaching for something over an open flame I'd probably swat her hand away too!

For me there is a difference between hitting or spanking and tapping or swatting. One hurts, the other does not.

Hey, my 14 y/o cousin is here visiting right now and we've been talking about this. She got spanked growing up if she was super naughty. She says it never hurt though it might have stung for a moment, she knew when she got a spank what it was for, she never felt it undeserved, it did straighten out her behavior in the moment and the hint of getting a spanking in future would often get to her to behave and she doesn't resent her parents for it (in fact, she scoffed at this question).
She is exceptionally well behaved now and not because she's afraid of punishment (she's much too old for a spanking now). She's an incredible student, very motivated, tons of extra-curricular activities that require a LOT of self-discipline, and she's a great kid. She does say that she doesn't know for sure if she'd spank her own kids but her own kids are probably something that's never yet crossed her mind.

Her experience is way different to mine but I think it's probably very common. Honestly guys, I wish my parents had been more strict with me. They were such marshmallows.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2010 07:12PM by coco.

not all,but many, they run into traffic, wont listen to when you tell them not to, even if you yell, most wont stop,and even when you carefully explain why not to, but they keep doing it over and over again, then you finally give them a little swat on the butt and they never do it again? at that point I dont care if it causes some sort of future emotional issue for them, which I dont think it does, but even if it does, better they have the chance to develop such issues, than be dead in the street, and kids running into the street is a relatively common occurrence...seeing one kid die from that is MORE than enough reason for me to make sure it never happens again, not on my watch at least...Id probably be banned from these boards if I gave the details of the aftermath,it would give the parents here nightmares, God knows its given me plenty...

You are probably right, we probably never will see eye to eye... maybe someday after you take care of some kids for extended periods of time...then we will see, but for now, the stats speak for themselves.

oh Trive, btw, something i forgot to include earlier, is I work with mentally disabled children as well, many who can barely communicate at all, some who do a little bit through sign language, I have never had to spank any of them, they are easier to work with than the average child, and in their case, I don't think spanking would have the desired effect, redirecting is the easiest way, its far easier to redirect their behavior than is the average childs, and short time outs,2-3 minutes, longer than that and they just start playing where they are usually and it doesn't really "feel" like a time out for many of them anymore... I adapt my approach to the specific child, its a bit different for any child, no two kids are the same... anyway, Im going to try and take a nap, ive decided to give in and take some Tylenol PM just to end this insomnia streak, so night!

Jan: your right,This is a good place to draw the line, or after whatever you or somebody else feels like posting next if youd like the last word, and believe me, If you can come up with something that works as well for those specific trouble children, prove it works by actually putting it into some practice with known kids that have been known to be near impossible to control, then I will happily adopt your method, I'll even buy the book, you'll be a millionaire!

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

'You are probably right, we probably never will see eye to eye... maybe someday after you take care of some kids for extended periods of time...then we will see, but for now, the stats speak for themselves.'

Curator I have 3 children - I think that constitutes caring for kids for extended periods of time. How many have you got?

You really have done everything and seen everything haven'nt you?

In all my 23 years as a parent none of my children have ever run out into the street. Had they wanted to I wouldn't have responded with violence. I wonder if all these children in your care have been so difficult to control because you resort to hitting them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2010 08:07PM by flipperjan.

Most parents who do smack do it because they just "lost it". It's not like they are thinking, "okay, I will now smack my child". Parents get overtired and overstressed and lose patience and next thing you know...SMACK. I have done it and regret it deeply. But it happened only twice. Not serious smacks, either.

By the way, there is a subset of strict Christians who DO indeed plan to strike their children (instead of just losing it like most of us have done). It is their belief that disobedience to a parent is the Biggest Sin Possible in the Universe and the child who has this quality must be divested of it no matter what. Goofy. They warn the child 2 or 3 times to stop doing such & such, the kid disobeys, and there follws a physical punishment that leaves the child crying and resentful. These people drive me insane.

Another thing, bad behaviour is quite often the child's way of relieving stress. There's all kinds of good books out there showing you how to let your child blow off steam. When they are small, you just hold them tightly while they struggle and then burst into tears and bawl like mad. But you keep on holding them. Next thing you know, they either fall asleep or get all normal and happy like you wanted! It is lovely. Usually works.

I recall my baby son playing merrily with the handheld blender. He had found the darn thing, plugged it in while I was in another room, and was turning it off and on over & over an waving it around. I thought it was funny and didn't get mad, just explained best as I could (he was a baby) that it was dangerous. But if for some other reason I had been under stress I can imagine I would have screamed at him & whacked him. It's not about the kids, it's about US.

I can't help but notice that when people want to defend spanking, they almost always give the example of a child who is running out into the street. When I have discussed corporal punishment of children with someone who approves of it, that's the first thing that comes out of their mouth.

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I don't have kids, as well, but as I always say: you don't have to be a carpenter to know when a table is broken. Of course there is a difference between a swat and a beating, but I am against any physical discipline. It lacks intelligence because it does nothing to address the supposed infraction. And some of the things deemed "wrong" by the parent, are not really. I see parents all the time who freak out if their kid steps in a puddle. "Oh, dirty! Dirty!" I would never be like that! Young children are very tactile. They learn by exploring via their senses. I remember being blissed out when staring at a puddle. It's a spiritual memory, I think, which is why it is so attractive to kids. Physical discipline is not disciplined. It is a lazy overreaction and if I pissed you (an adult) off and slapped you, I'd get arrested for battery, yet it's all good with children? The part of our brain that wants to hit someone is a primitive part. It's also been shown that most prisoners were disciplined in this manner. What really horrifies me is that this was a baby.

Oh, and Trive, I really agree with you regarding clueless parents who don't bring toys for their kids. I cannot tell you the number of times that I go out in public and parents bring their kids (waiting room, laundromat, etc.) and expect them to sit still and not make a fuss (most don't care if they run wild). My mother always brought books, crayons, games for us to amuse ourselves with and my brother and I never had hissyfits in public. It can be done and I don't think it's rocket science.