Scientific honesty and transparency just don't seem to be of interest to the raw food movement. Take for example, how some people think it's no big deal that Boutenko makes up statistics to support her personal opinions or how Wolfe gets away with a quick according to his research, which is not always revealed.

I think raw foodists deserve more and should require it of their 'leaders'. It's OK to express opinions and pose theories, but they should be presented as such along with the thought process and reasoning behind them.

Personally, I'm somewhat discouraged when I see these things. I can't help feeling that someone is using a fad to make a fast buck or as a vehicle to spew their dogma. Does anyone else feel this way? What would you like to see change in the information that we are being fed from the high-profilers? Do you feel strongly the other way?

Yes, it is discouraging, but also boosting to know that I know enough about science to read these things and seek out information that corroborates or rebuts these things, allowing me to ultimately draw my own conclusions as to the information's necessariness. I trust that most people here can discard the spurious without hesitation and without developing armor against all things provocative(which is likewise undesirable) and find their own way through this lifestyle. I find the contributions of the individual posters here who are living the life far more useful and necessary

I also wish there were more scientific proof of nutritional claims.

Unfortunately, that can be hard to come by when the bulk of funding for research comes from for-profit companies, such as ones that make nutritional supplements and companies that sell processed food.


My favorite raw vegan

I think we differ on that, Tamukha. I'd feel more confident drawing conclusions based on studies or evidence. I think they are better building blocks for my own ideas than others' unfounded opinions. So, when I read a book without footnotes or a bibliography or even in-text references, I personally get nothing out of it since I didn't need someone else to form an opinion for me. I feel cheated. And, honestly I don't feel that many people who are vocal about raw foods have good perspective or balanced views.

I would like more objective studies on nutrition as well, Trive. But, I still think that people who publish books and/or encourage or profit from mass followings on websites or other means are not using what information is available. They are not putting in the requisite work.

Tonya Zavastas new book Quantum Eating is full of scientific back up info.

veghunter,

No, we are alike: in the absence of actual study data, which I find extremely frustrating, I'll consider what people on these boards have to say rather than what some "guru" whose information may be fancy-based says. I don't think there is any incentive to study the effects of raw plant foods on human health, and there shan't be, unless some raw foods millionaire starts funding reasearch, LOL. And also, I believe that we are not just overlooked by mainstream research; we are at war with mainstream research, and even some alternative proponents not otherwise averse to raw plant foods: witness Mercola's anti China Study newsletter of today(I didn't even read the comments this time, presuming they are full of aggressive meatist vituperative):
[articles.mercola.com]

Not just frustrating--demoralizing.

maybe i ought to feel bothered
but i just don't

i really don't

its like playing with a jigsaw puzzle

people give me pieces
they may or may not fit in my puzzle
but i am not bothered by any of the individual pieces

I think it does matter - very much.

Tam, not everybody has the intellect that you use to come to your opinions. Many people believe everything that they read not even realising that it may have no refernces etc. If they are following one particular guru because they like the cut of his jib then they could get themselves into all sorts of nutritional trouble.

The raw food diet is usually viewed as weird, unhealthy, dangerous - it really doesn't help if people are publishing books with all kinds of claims which stand up to nothing.

I, myself am not going to buy any more books unless I am satisfied with the author's credentials - this wipes out most of them in my opinion!!

flipperjan,

No disagreement from me on this!

[thanks for complimenting my intellect; right back at ya ]

I agree with everything flipperjan said,lol...including the compliment to you tam,hehehehehe

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

good luck
you might be waiting a verrry long time for your "transparency" and "honesty"

your trauma might be long term then

oh well

so goes it

to each their own

i agree with LaV

there is actually very little transparancy in the non-raw world as well, so many studies are slanted for personal gain and paid for by big interest groups so how transparent/accurate are they either really?

the study of science for the sake of truth/fact at times seems to goen the way of the dodo

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Just as a joke. I usually visualize an overhead projector with printed material on plastic. Technical material would be 'scientific transparency'!

cute mislu

LOL...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

The thing I would really like to know is how does conventional cooked ideals really find their support? I have heard many people say that cooking is fine because so many people do it for such a long time. Also because person "x" is fine, and has lived "x" years so it must be ok.

I would like to know more about damaged nutrients and how it influences the body. Within my partners family, there is a doctor and professional nutritionist. Neither one knows anything positive about raw foods. I might expect that from a doctor, but not a nutritionist. The nutritionist actually prefers to eat processed foods, but really knows better. I have never even thought of asking what she thinks of a completely raw diet. I just think the conversation would not go well. Actually, I think disinterest would be more likely.

The other part is that some traditions on the planet say that cooking is actually needed. I don't know what support there is for that idea.

I remember going to the Raw Spirit Fest a couple years ago and hearing David Wolfe talk and try and sell me Coloidial Silver. I was so turned of by him and new that he was just in it for the money. I know here he is promoting raw meat and dairy. Way to make a 180.

I get tired of the "eat this" or "do this" and "all your ails will be cured." I spend a lot of time reading studies and have found that most of the advice people give is based on old wives tales and pseudo science. Many of the myths are perpetuated by people too arrogant to actually research the stuff they claim to know something about.

And then there are the "spiritual" people who claim they know something works because they can feel it. Well, I can feel a polyester rag fill me with love and peace if it is something I want to believe. Doesn't mean it is actually working.

oh well

Mislu:

Well, much of the reason for cooking is because it does kill bacteria, including those that are deadly. When I see the state of many restaurant kitchens, I become strongly in favor of cooking...thoroughly.

My personal take is that because government agencies need to send a message out that serves the dim as well as the savvy, it doesn't bother me that cooking is urged or so prevalent. What bothers me more is the restrictions that are put on raw, organic, and whole foods, disallowing those in the know from eating as they see fit.

CoeyCoey:

I agree about the claims to curing everything. I was watching some videos and I can't remember exactly which guru it was, but he said that it was impossible to get sick on raw food.

I am also put off by the 'spiritual' food movement. I'm in it for health not for enlightenment.


Tamukha:

I haven't been to Mercola.com recently. I stopped during the elections when the site seem to be entirely dedicated to Ron Paul. I might take a peek again and see if it's gone back to a health site.

Flipperjan:

Great points! Thanks for expressing them so nicely.

veghunter,

Quote

Tamukha:

I haven't been to Mercola.com recently. I stopped during the elections when the site seem to be entirely dedicated to Ron Paul. I might take a peek again and see if it's gone back to a health site.

Go on and take a gander. But beware--as of a few weeks ago, he and most commenters seemed to be deep into a frugiphobic fugue. But, maybe as of late, it's just stuff about flu vaccines! It's that time of year, ya know

veghunter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I am also put off by the 'spiritual' food
> movement. I'm in it for health not for
> enlightenment.
>

Veghunter,

The people who claim to be so enlightened, at least to me, tend to be the most out of balance, stressed out, and out of touch with reality.

At the Raw Spirit Fest this year, this one guy started drumming and chanting at 6:30AM. Didn't bother me since I was up earlier, but a lot of people were annoyed. They kept saying that they needed to accept his way and understand instead of judge. I said that being annoyed and voicing your opinion is not judging them and keeping it in is bad for you. They didn't agree.

If he had woken me up, I would have gone over to his tent and said "Hey Brotha, I get you are trying to be all spiritual and crap, but could you do that in a couple hours?" Either that or "SHUT THE F UP!" Depends on how late I went to bed. LOL

veghunter,
Never thought of that, perhaps if hygeine is an issue, then cooking might be an improvement. However, it would be great to improve hygeine so much everywhere that cooking would be unnecessary and outdated. That is really annoying, the restrictions, I imagine because standards might be difficult to keep everywhere. I know someone in the resturant business, he likes to eat fresh stuff, but says that is a nightmare trying to provide a consistent fresh raw dish continually. He only provided it occasionally for the health and interest of particular customers.

I can see how the 'spirituality' of food could be annoying from a particular perspective. I can see how it might be perceived that way however. When I have done raw strictly for a time, I did notice that I feel different, better. I also felt protected by the universe, nurtured. Its actually the first time I ever thought that there might be a god, and actually connected that idea with the feeling of love. At that time I thought it was 'supernatural', but really it could be the result of my brain cells working better, functioning how they are supposed to. Thats 'spiritual' if there ever was any, but maybe not in the way that most people think of spiritual.

Oh my goodness, when I worked as a cook, some of the things I saw--it's no wonder certain kitchens consider cooking a final "hygiene" step. Yes, Mislu, it would be nice if things were so tidy nbothing ever got cross contaminated and, at least at a good restaurant, you could order uncooked with confidence. But this just isn't feasible.

Tamukha,
I think you are right. When cooking for too many people, in too short on time, with money making in mind, some details are going to be missed. I knew someone who worked at a certain grocery chain. I had the naive image that they would carefully wash each item and dry with a fresh clean towel, like I would. But he said, it would never make it as corporation that way. So things just got cut up as is, unless there was an obvious piece of dirt or what not on something.

Same thing with ingredients. Shortening, corn syrup etc are cheaper and generally have a longer shelf life. In addition, they are generally more habit forming, so there isn't much incentive to change if you have customers addicted to the product.