Had a bit of a discussion about this online today. Man, people get p-oed when they want you to say Merry Christmas and you opt for Happy Holidays. Why is that I wonder? It's not like Happy Hols doesn't include Xmas, it most certainly does, right along with everything else on equal footing. Do people just really, really need it to be ALL about them before they're happy? If that's so why aren't the folk who celebrate Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and Solstice out there telling people off too? Geez.

I think they think you are excluding christmas or trying to undermine it or something. The same people I think probably object to secularization of the holiday. There is usually conflict when and if public property puts up any holiday anything, and then they have to put up equal time and space for anything else.

I have had the complete opposite reaction by saying happy holidays. I had someone tell me pointedly, "I don't celebrate christmas". I just thought to myself 'thats odd, I didn't say that".

I don't celebrate the holidays any more really. I went to a restant for thanksgiving, but I didn't make anymore of it than usual. My partner and I were looking at the holiday decorations being put up. It was funny seeing deflated lawn characters. Some goofy looking santa and reindeer. I have seen some nativity scenes, but santa, winter animals elves etc are more common on the lawns.

I actually miss the fun I used to have as a child around christmas. Well, some aspects I don't miss. I used to like shopping, but now I avoid going into stores like avoiding a plague around the holidays. I think my personal financial worries and school have a lot to do with that. Whenever I go by windows of the store I just think of all the things I can't buy or afford. And then on second thought I think do I really need any of them?

I promised myself no big deal with the presents this year but then I found myself with advent calendars for both the kids, lol. It does help them measure and understand time during a period when they are more likely to pay attention to the passing of days and how that "feels", you know? But it's a small gift every day for 24 days! There is very little in the way of presents planned for the 25th but it's all special so they are sure to enjoy it. And I love seeing the lights with them, their wonder and enthusiasm is infectious.
We don't technically celebrate Christmas though, it's just a holiday from work and school that we spend with family each year. I love it. It's a time in winter to get together for food and song, comfort, a roaring fire, candles, gifts and so much love. I don't care what it's called but just like choosing to say "Oh my gosh" instead of G_d, avoiding using the word "retarded" out of context, etc to be sensitive to those around me, I also choose Happy Holidays as a seasonal greeting. I don't get how anyone can be offended by such an inclusive sentiment. It's really very nice.

I agree, happy holidays is more inclusive. It shouldn't be a big deal to say it or hear it. I guess people want to hear Merry Christmas back when they say it. I guess its a form of validation. I don't know why, but I just don't feel good saying it. I don't want to say 'bah humbug' either. I want people to enjoy something that means something to them, but at the same time I don't want to feel obligated to sound like I am endorsing something. I don't observe it as a christian holiday. I guess I could still say it with a secular meaning, but I guess there is still christ in christmas so there is always a religious undertone to it.

You could always wish people a happy Saturnalia instead .

coco, don't you understand that when you opt to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas," you are actively waging War on Christmas[tm]?

As a modified Zoroastrian I sometimes correct people: "Actually, it's Happy Mithras' Birthday," and add, "But I ain't mad atcha" when I inevitably get a blank stare in return.

I say Merry Christmas to anyone who isn't a Jew, and the Jews get Happy Hannukkah. Kwanzaa people let me know and I wish them a happy Kwanzaa, etc. It's all tedious, mostly because it's unholy to take offense at something that isn't meant to offend. Taking offense at "Happy Holidays" means that you are elevating your petty feelings above the birth of the baby Jesus or whatever, and this sort of self centeredness is most likely frowned upon by your faith. I-ro-ny.

If only the average person knew English well enough to know that "Happy Holidays" is an ideal general greeting for this time of year. If only . . .

I must admit I have never once heard of this issue.
Maybe I live under a rock,but even under rocks you still hear stuff.

Vinny

It's in the paper every single year, people put up signs, some old friend of the family I friended on facebook has been posting what amounts to racist comments along the lines of "It's called CHRISTMAS! If you don't like it, go back to where you came from!" to which I can only reply "Where would that be, exactly? 'Cause I was born right here." I mean, really, go back to where I came from. Should I go back to my mama? She's doesn't always call it Xmas either! LOL. It's pure stupidity, this trying to claim ownership of December celebrations. It's SUCH a mash up of this and that from many cultures and, let's be honest, more advertisers than any one thing. Silly silly silly, and completely contrary to the supposed sentiment of the season.

I think it's sad. I mean, think of what Christmas stands for. I think of Christmas as more of a folk tradition, rather than a religious one. Why can't we all celebrate all of the holidays instead of just picking one based on religion or race. I think we should all take an elementary school approach and just celebrate them all. (Though Hanukkah seems difficult.) I like Happy Holidays. I suppose Merry Christmas can be a touchy greeting. Think of the gift exchange scenario.. Maybe the p-oed people were just looking for gifts, or are like fanatical Christians.

Ill just stay under my rock,listen to my Christmas Carols,watch my Scrooge movies,decorate my tree,sip cider....and enjoy.
Vinny

Vinny,

This gave me quite a chuckle:

Quote

Maybe I live under a rock,but even under rocks you still hear stuff.

I'm gonna make that part of my lexicon

I saw a banner on someones house. I don't recall exactly what it said, but something like merry CHRISTmas. Observe your right to Keep christ in christmas. Something like that, but it had some subtle negative vibrations in it. One just has to say whatever. I am all for someone having a good time and joy in what they believe, but it had overtones that seemed to say everyone else can't observe something else, or call it something else. Or observe nothing at all. Everyone else has rights also.

I enjoyed seeing someone who decorated their fence with rings and ribbons and a string of evergreens. I think thats a better way to celebrate, don't worry about what someone else is doing or not doing. Especially if they aren't preventing you from doing what you want or hurting you in any way.

Isn't it weird Mislu? Taking the joy out of it for themselves and everyone else who reads their sign. How depressing to be them or their neighbours. Whew. Glad I can just take enjoyment from the days off school and time to spend with family. My kids get so excited too and it's just wonderful to be brought back to the days of my own childhood through them. It's lovely.

There are aspects of it myself that I miss. I miss the sense of wonder I had as a child. More recently however I remember going out with my brother and his wife to drive around to look at christmas lights and decorations. The local paper had a listing of particularly spectacular areas and sometimes even particular addresses of interest. Some were just SOOOO over the top with lights and very expensive lawn decorations.

The most impressive to me was what looked like life sized nativity scene made from ceramic. With lights everywhere. It was beautiful. Some around here are nice, but most are just fun and a few just plain tacky.

Do you have any young relatives? Cousins, niece, nephew, or close family friend with children? If you'd like to recapture the wonder of your youth, do a holiday craft with a kid or two. I guarantee a ridiculously high level of irresistible fun and silliness .

None nearby. Thats a good suggestion however.

I just heard about someone who made a mockery of the holiday. Its labled 'atheist'. But I suppose it could be an expression of dislike for the holiday.
virginia-atheists-erect-crucified-santa-skeleton-display-on-courthouse-lawn-shockingly-people-arent-thrilled-about-it

I would have never thought of doing something like that. My partner considers himself atheist, but he would definately not do something like that either. Hes not militant against religion, but more indifferent, unless its actively hurting him.

Kind of lame...I am sure more creative atheists could come up with something better than that, and more acceptible also. Except how does one depict 'no god' or 'no gods'? Its easier to show a frog, rather than what isn't a frog, right? What about something festive but isn't associated with anything currently 'christmas'. Mid winter festival? Snow flakes? well thats already x-massy....

I'm partial to Festivus myself, lol.

[www.festivusweb.com]

I don't find the saying "Keep the Christ in Christmas" offensive. To me it just means, don't forget about the spirituality in all the materialistic hooha.
I mean, isn't the symbol of Pisces, which is said to represent Chritianity, two fish - spirituality and materialism. We do live in a material world, why can't the two go together. i mean, food is a material. Gifts can be of a spiritual nature.

Rawalice,
This is just my perspective, it should not be taken as fact. Christmas is a hijaked holiday, or borrowed or modified however you wish to view it. It existed before the foundations of the christian faith. Jehovah's witnesses and the WWCOG and perhaps a few others also agreed that its not really a christian holiday. There is a possibility that there is spirituality in the holiday, but is it necessarily christian, and does it have to be?

You lost me with pisces, I equate that with things eastern, pagan, new age and astrology etc...I suppose they don't necessarily conflict. But I wasn't raised with a belief of pisces or any astrology associated with christianity. In fact we were even discouraged from reading the horoscope in the paper. Are fish used in decorations for christmas?

Mislu, Alice is talking about the fact that supposedly Christianity began under the sign of Pisces (during the Spring equinox). And what do you think Christmas is? A PAGAN holiday! Trees are big Pagan symbols, the Winter Solstice, etc. That is why it's so hilarious when fundamentalists act as if Paganism is satanic when they have adopted these practices and symbols. And what about the Three Wise Men? Weren't they (gasp) ASTROLOGERS???

Plus fish and fishing=important to early Christian symbolism, right?

Mislu, I just want to make it clear that I am not mocking fundamentalists but I get the feeling you no longer belong to whatever sect that was...(JW?). I grew up in a liberal Christian sect, but even that never resonated with me. I can't imagine what it is like to have heavy-handed (and sometimes threatening messages) forcefed to children but I know many "surviving Catholics," etc. It seems many of them become outright atheists. If it's a choice, then fine, but a reaction to one's upbringing means that it continues to control a person. I don't follow any organized religion but I respect the esoteric versions of the Western faiths (like gnosticism, Sufism, and Kabbalah).

I don't know, maybe it's a bit like how the Catholics adopted symbols from the Celtic folk tradition to include with their "new" religious/world view to make it more appetizing in the conversion. I mean, the way I see it, at least the tradition was upheld by someone. I guess that would change the "Keep the Christ.. "in Christmas where we put him!" i don't know, I admit to viewing Jesus in more of the Hindu manner, but people do so much good in the name of Christianity that I can't hold a grudge against a whole religion because of a small percentage of people's way of pushing of it. I guess it's easy now, since we're free to believe in all religions if we please, or holidays. It's probably the magic that keeps me interested. Here's a video out of my church growing up. [www.youtube.com] Mickey's Christmas Carol

What magic keeps you interested, Alice? Are you speaking of paganism or just the feelings you get during the holidays? I can't wait until Dec. 26th! The fever pitch of this whole thing is just so fake to me. I used to work in a health food store and my boss was pretty morose. She never smiled. And yet during the holidays she would get a bit manic (as opposed to a genuine happiness). It's so silly to be happy because it's a "special" day yet what about the rest of the year? But then, it's the same with weddings for me. If you have everything invested in one day, what is the point? I like ordinary days myself. People place too many expectations on Christmas, IMO. But perhaps the ones who get weird are the ones who didn't have such nice holidays as children and so they idealize this time of year and try to make up for it. I always had such nice holidays as a child and now I can look back and feel like I was allowed to be a child and enjoy it and not yearn for it. But then again, I don't have kids! I supppose if you do, you want to make them as idyllic as possible...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2011 12:56AM by banana who.

B who,
Well there is a conspiracy theory about those matters. I won't go into detail here, but if you search eventually you might find information about that. I did have a falling out with the religion I grew up in. And yes there was a larger degree of mind control than I ever realized. Its taken so many years for me to start to see it. I think I still have some anomosity towards it, but that has really lessened in the last few years to more indifference.

I actually appreciate and want my parents to still be involved in it. I couldn't say that years ago. Mostly because I have come to believe that they simply can't understand anything else, in addition to being fearful of everything else. So why push it? If it no longer has value to them, then they can find something else if they want to, and when and if they are ready. For my father I think it does something for him. He has no other grounding in ethical behavior outside of that context as far as I know.

Rawalice,
I do find hinduism very interesting, and I read some article about it. Written actually by a christian critic. It was so incredibly concise and logical and direct about some of the major unifying thoughts. Hinduism is so incredibly diverse and ancient. Yet there are so many things that tend to be in common. It was supposed to be 'anti' hindu, yet I found the critic more persuasive to a hindu view.

I am not sure what do say about good deeds. Some can be appear good to everyone, some deeds may be misunderstood. Some good deeds might only seem so by the followers of the particular faith. I find it difficult to understand their true motivation for doing anything. In the particular church I was raised with, good deeds were essential for salvation, but its not always taught by all christians. My general disallusionment with christianity leaves me questioning the value and motivation of good deeds, and what possible strings are attached to it. Although one christian gave me a gift and he said something about comparing it to the gift of salvation, all one has to do is recieve it. So hopefully there isn't an hidden agenda.

I always talked to Jehovah's Witnesses because I liked debating them. But now I don't want to crush their beliefs. This world can be a cruel place. There is a saying that the definition of a cult is any religion except your own. That's a funny punchline but I don't think it's always the case. To me, a cult is a spiritual group that has very rigid guidelines, isolates members (and shuns those who leave), has threats for not following the faith (or not being perfect): God will punish you, etc.

I have heard it said that people are attracted to this sort of punitive religion because they are very judgmental in their private lives and it resonates on that level. I tend to agree with that.

My boyfriend sometimes visits his friends at the Hare Krishna temple. This sect was often cited for cult-like practices in the past (like the '70s). I see that they are much more detached these days. You can visit and won't get someone trying to keep you there. I have gone with him and although I enjoy Hinduism, this sect is too strict for my tastes. However, they put on a great show on Sundays.

I have gone to a H.K. temple out of curiosity. I like certain images of krishna and I used to have a poster of one or another god. It might have been shiva. I sometimes don't know how to tell them apart. It never really entirely appealed to me. But I remember buying a book from one at the aport. I remember feeling something very spiritual when the person spoke to me. But I never felt it again after that.

Thats a good definition of a cult. Its also a matter of degree. Every 'culture' has rules and beliefs which unite, and to some degree seperate themselves from 'other' cultures. Its a matter of degree.

When they tell you that if you don't believe what they do, you'll go to hell, have bad things happen, etc. then that is using fear to control, IMO. And when you're a kid growing up with this, you just don't have the perspective to be able to not take it literally and not internalize these implied threats. Very scary stuff. It definitely takes its toll on some people. I understand better now when some people get so freaked out if you mention God. It's almost scary for them, I bet...