Cops just murdered my friends brother, he was mentally disabled, super gentle and friendly, they say he attacked them, everyone else that was there said that he was scared of them and ran away from them, never acted aggressively towards them at all till they tased him, unprovoked, they tased him twice, and he died... why does this stuff have to keep happening here? (they got sued just recently for shooting and killing an unarmed man too...this kinda stuff is kinda common here.) The police here have finally gotten some national attention, and they wont be able to hide behind the redwood curtain anymore... hopefully...

So sorry to hear this. I personally think tasers are a greater menace than guns, because a cop, even a poor one, thinks twice before shooting his weapon, whereas there's this erroneous impression that tasering someone is so much less dangerous that it's a valid recourse in all cases . . . The opposite is actually true--this is a generalization, but it seems to me that one hears more often that police resort to tasers instead of relying on their critical judgment, conflict resolution training or just plain manually disarming/ apprehending someone. I hope to God they're still teaching these humane methods of handling arrests at police academies, and not bowing to the small arms industry. But, well, the cynic in me suspects maybe not so much anymore. Everyone is walking on a tightrope of fear these days. When the police are no exception, it's scary.

If your friend's family can find a good ambulance chaser, sue the force. I seldom think this way, but if this thing happened as you say, someone must formally answer for it. They police exist to protect and enforce the social contract; when they break it themselves, they must suffer justice.

they havnt decided whether they are going to sue yet or not, but they do have a lawyer and are planning on at least trying to force a criminal case if the police department doesnt take care of it... I mean there is no excuse to tase an unarmed man who who is running away from you, that is not standard procedure, and tasing him twice...that's just nuts... let alone the fact that he is mentally disabled, and was terrified of them... the cops where originally called out because he was upset and afraid and where asked to help calm him down, as was on the recorded phone call, he isnt violent, but he wouldn't let anyone near him, and the cops instead of working on calming him, where really aggressive towards him from the beginning...

I think they have a really good case for a law suit, and I think in some ways they should sue...but Ive always kinda felt in these situations, that acting like any amount of money can compensate for the loss of a loved one...kind of cheapens the life that loved one lived... But I can understand why one would want to...

Tragic. I'm so sorry.

Barbaric. What is happening to this country? If you can't move to another country, here's another possibility: consider moving to a kinder, gentler, more inclusive and progressive community. I live in a city (Cambridge, MA) that honors human rights, disability rights, gay rights, the First Amendment rights of street performers and protesters, the right to a living wage, etc., and being here keeps me sane. Cambridge is even a safe-haven for illegal immigrants. (Some may disapprove, but to me this is a good thing.) Find a place that has many of these qualities, and you'll likely also find a more humane police force.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

well, I meant county not country, I live in Del Norte county... theres no way I will ever be able to afford to leave the country, my dream would be to start a kinda commune, but with allot of modern conveniences, maybe make it an all religions church to achieve tax exempt status, and have a large organic farm used to produce most if not all of our food needs, trading with the outside for other things we need, selling at farmers market to take care of bills that trading doesnt cover...

I've been sitting here thinking about this event and a lot of different thoughts have been bouncing around. Some of it is upset, some is apprehension, some condolement, some wonderment, but essentially I don't think that there are any words which can elicit a reconciliation.

It seems to me that when some things just happen, and the only recourse is to accept it and move forward. A part of me would like those cops asses kicked royally, but another part feels that there may be more to be gained by investing that same energy into some kind of social support activity, so that it in turn can allow the people to be more at ease with less crime, and our policing can consequently relax as well.

I hope that something positive is gained through the experience though, who knows... maybe it will help wake people up to a need for change ?

maybe, although the last 3 similar problems didnt...I hope this one does...

Oh, I'm so sorry. My brother is the same and I have often feared for him when he's gone missing. He's a big guy and it would be easy to misinterpret his behavior as aggressive or intimidating, some yahoo could take offense to something he said or did and really hurt him. My heart squeezes just thinking about it...
The RCMP here are finally being made to pay for the death of a man they tasered repeatedly (5 times) in the Vancouver airport for being "aggitated". There is a non-police related observatory force being implementing to watch dog their actions now. It's too late for that poor man (someone videoed it on their camera, it's heart wrenching to watch) but perhaps not for another person in the future.

"acting like any amount of money can compensate for the loss of a loved one...kind of cheapens the life that loved one lived"

It is used to send a message about compensation for a wrongful act. It's lovely to donate that money to a cause that is close to the heart as well, funding resources for other mentally challenged individuals. Get it in the news, get that info out there to raise awareness about people with mental challenges.

Oh, i believe your right, in the best of circumstances, unfortunatey, I have seen that far to often, the people are like woohoo, sdo and so died, but we got a windfall! and its kinda sad, I cant even say honestly that I wouldnt be happy to get a bunch of money if something that horrible happened to somebody I love, and I would probably feel rather horrible about it for a long long time, i dunno, if I wasnt hard up for money, id probably donate it to a worthy cause... but most dont, and I wouldnt under these circumstances, so I dont judge them for keeping the money if they do sue, it just feels like a sucky situation to me...(typing on somebody elses really unfamiliar keyboard, so trying to type fast be4 I start work,lol)

I responded to an altered mental status call once. Guy was laying on the side of the road. Short version of the story is, by the time the call was over I was hauled off in an ambulance and my shoulder had to be surgically repaired. Now I get to live with pain, restricted movement, scars, and knowing that my shoulder will never be as strong as it once was, for the rest of my life. Several months later my department was issued tazers and we went through the training. Ironicly the first person that was tazered was the same guy that destroyed my shoulder. He was shot 3 times with the tazer none of them having any effect.

I can't say anything about this situation because I wasn't there. But I usually find that most people that talk about incidents like this and bash cops weren't there either. Majority of people get their information 2nd, 3rd, even 4th hand and it is usually twisted and so anti-cop that it makes me ill. Not saying this is the case here but it usually is. One of these days I'll learn to not read threads like this.

ok I personally know 5 people who where all there at the time of the incident, including his mother, brother, multiple other siblings, and my friend jessica, I have met him on multiple occasions and he was always a really kind and gentle guy, obviously two tasers where more than enough to take him down, as they KILLED him, plus even the officers admit he was on the front lawn when they first confronted him, they say he charged them and they tased him, however, when medical personal arrived, he was inside the house... every other witness there says that he yelled our that they where scary and to go away, and ran into the house where they chased him with tasers already drawn, Im sorry nubster but there is NO defense for their behavior, it is completely against regulations, nothing in the situation was handled correctly, sorry about your shoulder, but you got attacked by a crazy guy, not an older dude with the mind of a 5 year old who was running AWAY when he was tasered, all 4 taser marks are in his back, the cops say they are injured, it is illegal in every state for a cop to fire a taser at anyone who isnt acting aggressively towards them, and ALL evidence points to him not acting aggressively...

Finally, the cops shouldnt have even been sent out, they called asking for some one to help calm him down cause he was upset and scared and wouldnt come inside or let anyone come near him...he wasnt being violent towards anyone, or acting aggressively... what would your stance be if it was an actual 5 year old? cause there isnt much difference here.

Curator, I'm sorry to hear about your friend's brother. Whatever the circumstances, it is a tragedy. I feel sad for you and your friend's family.

Nubster, I appreciate you presenting something for me to think about. Whatever the circumstances of a death where an officer is involved, "innocent until proven guilty" applies to law enforcement officers too. Thank you for your service performing a dangerous, but necessary job.


My favorite raw vegan

Not sure where you received your LE training but it it NOT illegal to taze a non-aggressive person. I can taze you for non-compliance. The tazer is the same as using pepper spray on the use of force continuum.

And you are getting information 2nd hand from distraught and pissed off family members...hardly objective. Again...I wasn't there nor were you so to know 100% without a doubt what happened...well, neither of us will ever know.

Curator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok I personally know 5 people who where all there
> at the time of the incident, including his mother,
> brother, multiple other siblings, and my friend
> jessica, I have met him on multiple occasions and
> he was always a really kind and gentle guy,
> obviously two tasers where more than enough to
> take him down, as they KILLED him, plus even the
> officers admit he was on the front lawn when they
> first confronted him, they say he charged them and
> they tased him, however, when medical personal
> arrived, he was inside the house... every other
> witness there says that he yelled our that they
> where scary and to go away, and ran into the house
> where they chased him with tasers already drawn,
> Im sorry nubster but there is NO defense for their
> behavior, it is completely against regulations,
> nothing in the situation was handled correctly,
> sorry about your shoulder, but you got attacked by
> a crazy guy, not an older dude with the mind of a
> 5 year old who was running AWAY when he was
> tasered, all 4 taser marks are in his back, the
> cops say they are injured, it is illegal in every
> state for a cop to fire a taser at anyone who isnt
> acting aggressively towards them, and ALL evidence
> points to him not acting aggressively...
>
> Finally, the cops shouldnt have even been sent
> out, they called asking for some one to help calm
> him down cause he was upset and scared and wouldnt
> come inside or let anyone come near him...he wasnt
> being violent towards anyone, or acting
> aggressively... what would your stance be if it
> was an actual 5 year old? cause there isnt much
> difference here.

I missed your last paragraph. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. First of all, it is pretty much SOP to send LE to a call when there is a mental status change. Even if the person is not doing anything illegal or violent the police go usually to make sure that EMS personnel stay safe. Even if EMS do are not called the police almost always are. Someone obviously called 911. What do you expect...the police to get the call and just not show up? Once they are given the call from dispatch unless the call can be handled over the phone they are required to respond. This is generally not the type of call that can be handled over the phone however.

And to compare a 5 year old child to a retarded adult with the mental capacity of a 5 year old child is dumb. There is no comparison. Unless a 5 year old child was armed with a weapon they pose almost no risk to me. On the other hand mentally retarded adults are OFTEN times extremely strong to an almost super human capacity. An unarmed mentally handicapped adult can still be dangerous. I have the scars to prove it. So perhaps before you start bashing the cops and spouting off a bunch of stuff that you have no idea about, stop and think and then don't say anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2010 09:00AM by Nubster.

My brother could very well injure you without knowing what he was doing, I freely admit that. He is a gentle and well behaved person but he's big and if he isn't taking his meds, he is just not right in the head. I wouldn't want to see him tasered, I certainly hope police would have some alternate training to that to put someone on the ground, I know my friend with martial arts training can lay out a person bigger than he is without hurting them at all but... I wouldn't want my brother to hurt anyone else either. It's a tough call.
If you google the video for the man in the airport that I mentioned earlier you'll see something that most people just cannot understand though. And the courts are not siding with the police on this one either. Just because some officers might be conscientious about their use of force, some are NOT. A young girl was just shot from close range in Detroit in an inexplicable scenario. Etc etc etc. Police are human too, we all make mistakes, just theirs are sometimes made with guns and tasers.

Nubster,

As you can see from the op and all responses, no one is denigrating all police, all the time; we presuppose that most due their work with due diligence and well. The point we are making is that, in this case, there appears to have been an overreaction by the police, in the vernacular sense if not in the sense of police training and protocol. And if [allegedly]exessively tasering a non compliant individual that is [allegedly]retreating and unarmed is, as you say, consistent with protocol, well that is inhumane and not what policing should be about and needs to be concertedly addressed by the community and the police agencies together.

As far as what Curator has described goes, and considering his frankness we must give him the benefit of the doubt, the taseree was not some behemoth freaking out on PCP. And it is unreasonable for all people with diminished mental capacity, which typically refers to clinical mental illness that might put one in a psychotic frenzy(perhaps like the guy who attacked you, about which I am truly sorry), and someone with, say, Down Syndrome. They aren't the same and oughtn't to require the same response. If this occurred as described, this contradicts the axiom, "If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to be afraid of," which we all presume when we go out where crimes may occur and police may be summoned. If protocol isn't altered to deal with situations like this, the job of the police will only become more difficult. And that's bad for everyone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2010 01:09PM by Tamukha.

Here's the thing. The OP wasn't there. The OP wasn't in the police officer's car when they received the call. The OP wasn't at the dispatch center when the 911 call was made. Police are at such a disadvantage sometimes because they respond to situation with only the information that is given to them and many times either the 911 called is not giving enough or the proper information or the dispatchers are failing at their job. I have had to deal with both numerous times. So it is hard to know what information the police had going in to this situation. And when they arrive the guy takes off running in to the house. Well, the police at that point for officer safety are going to go in to the house after the guy because they don't know if the guy running is going after a gun or other weapon. So now the situation has been raised a level. Since the guy had diminished mental capacity I am sure that officers orders when unheeded. At that point the tazers where likely used. That is pretty much by the book. The only problem is not knowing what the officers knew going in. Did they know this guy had the mental capacity of a 5 year old? Did they have a full understanding that the guy was typically nonviolent? There are 1001 questions that are raised that mostly can not be nor will ever be answered by the OP because he wasn't there and his source of information is unreliable. That is one reason why testimony that is information received 2nd hand is inadmissible in court. It is unreliable.

Now the thing that really pisses me off is in the very first line the OP writes "Cops just murdered my friends brother". That is utter bullshit. The cops didn't murder anyone. Do you honestly think that as the police responded to this call they conspired to kill this guy? Murder is the purposeful killing another person. I highly doubt the police intended to kill this guy and to say otherwise is foolish. And then later someone says they want to see violence committed on the cops.

I will say certainly this is an unfortunate situation. No one here can say whether the situation could have been handled better because nobody was there. It may have been by the book or it is totally possible the police were completely out of line. I am not defending them or their actions because I don't have the information to do so. I am defending all police and how they are so often raked over the coals and spit on by people that hear about something that happened to someone else and then go out and start spreading a bunch of unconfirmed and untrue information to automatically make the police look like they did something horrible. It is horrible that this guy died but in all honestly he mostly died from an underlying medical condition that was exasperated by the police presence and eventual tazing. I have been tazed and while it hurts it is essentially harmless and that is why it is used. However if someone has a medical condition, especially a heart condition the tazer certainly could cause some issue. But so can pepper spray and so can getting in to a hands-on altercation with someone. All of those less than lethal options given to officers at one point or another have resulted in the death of suspects all over the country. The simple act of handcuffing someone and placing them in the back of a cruiser has resulted in death. It is a shame but there are few options. The fact is 1000's of people are harmlessly tazered for every one person that dies. It is only the people that die that get attention.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2010 04:21PM by Nubster.

I agree with Nubster (are you a cop? I seem to detect this...). I have been in a situation with a woman who decided to call the cops because my boyfriend told her to turn down her stereo. People routinely call the police to deal with their unruly children or with relatives who are not taking their meds and are behaving violently. And in the case of the latter, they get upset when things go badly after the person tazed dies (and sometimes they are on some drug that contributed to the death or they are overweight or in otherwise poor health).That last word is key--if someone is being out of control, a tazer is supposed to subdue the person so that they can be transported wherever they need to be taken. And then they criticize the cops saying "they didn't need to go that far." Well, then why did they call the cops in the first place if it was so easy to control their relative? I think we are expecting way too much from the police. Police cannot be social workers or psychologists or surrogate parents. They are a very basic protection and unfortunately, if you have relatives who are not taking their meds, you need to find some way to get them to do so. Otherwise, their behavior may put the public at risk or be misinterpreted. Are there cops who abuse their power? Of course. But to automatically dislike or blame cops is unfair, IMO. I know I am glad to see a cop car go by if I am alone at night! And nowadays with so many violent people packing, I can see how cops would be freaked out and act as aggressively as they do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2010 11:22PM by banana who.

"Police cannot be social workers or psychologists or surrogate parents."

Sad thing is we routinely are required to do all three...sometimes at the same time. And to answer your question...yes, I have worked in law enforcement for the last ten years. Two in corrections and eight on the street.

First off, to both of you, Nubster and Banana who, the cops broke california law, period, I NEVER said ANYTHING denigrating ALL cops, I said THESE ones committed murder, and if they have had proper training then they KNOW two taser shots can even kill a healthy person, one usually wont, but 2 can. Secondly, they called the cops, because he normally LIKES cops, they have called them be4 to help them calm him down, he has NEVER gotten violent before, officers in the past would just talk with him a few minutes, and he would calm down and be ok, he was taught from a young age that police will make sure he is safe and will help him... But their aggressive behavior scared him...

Nubster, Im sorry but there have been MULTIPLE cases of cops raping, and killing people in this town, PROVEN cases, in the court of law, It seems like you are defending their actions ONLY because you used to be a cop, by their OWN statements he was in the YARD when they arrived, if he charged them, how come they tased him in the House? How come the EMT people that showed up stated all of the taser marks ARE IN HIS BACK!!! use some simple analytical reasoning, dont defend their actions just because they are wearing blue.

The legal definition of MURDER is :Intentional homicide (the taking of another person’s life), without legal justification or provocation. that is how the courts nationwide have upheld it based on U.S. Code, Title 18
This is U.S. Code Title 18.
"Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought."
I will concede the first officer to fire his taser probably had no intention of killing him, BUT since he wasnt resisting or acting violent in any way, he DID commit manslaughter,or at LEAST aggravated assault as one could argue he had no knowledge the other officer would fire a second time, the second officer fired after he was already on the ground from the first taser, that is murder.

The Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco has ruled that police must have reasons to believe a suspect is dangerous before firing a Taser and can’t use the weapon merely because the person is disobeying orders or acting erratically. so Obviously, you received your training, what, over a decade ago, cause this isnt a new ruling.

It is common knowledge that two taser hits can KILL the average person if the first is enough to take them down (I.E. not on something like PCP, or other similar drugs), tasers cause all the muscles in the body to contract violently, putting ALLOT of stress on the heart, a second taser blast can cause permanent damage, and possibly kill the average person, Drugs like PCP cut off a large portion of the nerves connection to the muscles and brain, hence why one on PCP or other similar substances cant feel pain, and why tasers dont usually work on them.

By their own admission the second officer fired his taser after he was already on the ground cause he was flailing around violently, which is an uncontrolled side effect of being tased, and NOT a reason to tase a guy again who is of no danger to you.

They KNEW he was mentally disabled, THEY knew he posed no threat as there is proof he was running away from them, I KNOW he wasn't a threat, as he isnt violent, Ive seen neighborhood kids bully him, and him run away crying, and his family and my friend are far better witnesses than those 2 cops, My friend doesn't even LIKE her boyfriends family, other than his now deceased older brother, she would not lie for them, period.

He didnt run when they arrived, which youd know if you actually read what I wrote, they arrived, he was sitting in the yard, they acted aggressively towards him from the moment they stepped out of the car, where yelling at him to lay down on his stomach with his hands on his head, he told them to go away that they where scaring him, and his mom yelled out that he was mentally disabled, plus he had downs syndrome, so its physically OBVIOUS he is mentally disabled, and not some guy on drugs... he did not run till after the first cop pulled a taser, and he ran away yelling about them being scary.

I normally wouldnt say this or even feel this just because somebody has disagreed with me on something, but you are Obviously defending wrong actions just because they are cops and you used to be, I have lost ALL respect for you, and im glad your not a cop anymore, cause your coming off as the kinda cop that would look the other way while his buddy rapes the women in the jail, like what happened to a friend of mine, and over 30 other women, cases proven, officers slapped on the wrist and lost their jobs, the tapes from surveillance magically disappeared, so it was the cops saying it was consensual, vs over 30 women saying they where raped...our local newspaper didnt even freaking cover it...I hate this town...

Last but not least, to those who are reasonable on here, Im pretty sure ive made it clear that I do not have anything against cops in general, I love and appreciate the good cops, I have a few as personal friends, but I HATE (and I never use that word lightly) officers who Abuse their power, and even more, those who defend that abuse of power, California AND federal law says a crime has been committed, forensic evidence proves the cops are lying, theres no way a man could charge them, yet end up dead on the kitchen floor, over 30 feet away, the opposite direction, with taser marks ALL in his BACK! And it is total BS for you NUBSTER to say that 5 people are all lying, and have given the EXACT SAME STATEMENT immediately after it happened... yeah im so sure these are perfectly great cops and all of my friends conspired against them to get them in trouble...

But good just of sticking up for your fellow officers Nubster, im sure you bleed blue.

Police are wary of confrontations in kitchens because there are knives at hand. An officer friend of mine was called to a disturbance between a couple who were arguing in their kitchen. In the process of directing them away from the kitchen area there was a scuffle and then complaints to their superiors of heavy-handedness.

Another time my neighbor in his yard lit into his disrespectful son-in-law verbally, very loudly, heated and relentless. The police arrived, surveyed the situation and with one on each side he still managed to sock his son-in-law in the jaw. Things happen that fast.

Once again...more crap is spewing from you mouth. First of all I NEVER said anyone was lying. But getting information from distraught family members of a person that dies is not a reliable source of information. I didn't say anyone lied but views and perceptions of what happened are often skewed.

Secondly, I know what the definition of murder is. I told you what it was before you tried to teach me what it is. Whether one or two or ten tazers were used...I doubt that anyone was trying to kill this guy. I don't think that the second officer deployed his tazer with the intentions of making the guy die. No intent, no murder.

As far as being in the yard...I only said that if he was in the yard and took off running for what ever reason...it doesn't matter, into the house and the police followed which is standard procedure, then when the guy did not follow commands given by the officers it would be logical for him to have been tazed in the back. That is NOT illegal nor improper. If you don't mind, show me something that states a person CANNOT be tazed in the back...I'll be waiting a very long time for that because you CAN CAN CAN taze a person in the back and in fact it is probably the most effective and safest place to taze someone. In fact when I went through my tazer training everyone was tazed in the back...wonder why that was? When you took your tazer training, where you tazed in the front or back?

Two tazers being more dangerous? Maybe. But funny that the instructors in my class tazed two of the people in the class with two tazers at once. If it were so much more dangerous I doubt that would have happened.

Flopping around from being tazed? Not likely. People don't flop around when tazed. All their muscles are so tense from being contracted that unless you are impervious to pain, high on drugs, making a super human effort to fight through the tazing, or the probes do not have proper contact to make the tazer effective, then you do not flop around. If any of the above does occur and the person if in fact moving and "flopping" around then that is exactly the reason a second tazer would be and should be deployed. Again...you should have learned that in your tazer training.

So to recap...
- I never said anyone was lying...just unreliable. Only person here telling non-truths is you.

- Guy runs, reason why is irrelavent. Gets tazed in back...standard procedure and is actually taught during tazer training.

- People getting tazed to not flop. If the guy was flopping it was not because of a properly engaged tazer. Second tazer deployed. Again, standard procedure.

- Murder...I know what it is...I told you what it is. This was an unfortunate incident but not murder. Even the second tazer being used is not murder unless the intent was to kill which I doubt. If the officer wanted to kill the guy and felt deadly force was needed a firearm would have been used.

- They knew he was disabled but you can NEVER know someone is not a threat. Even 90 year old grandmas can be a threat. I'm surprised when you went through the police academy you were not taught to treat everyone as though they could be a threat. By that I mean keeping your space, being in a position to react if required, and prepared to defend yourself if you are attacked. I once was on a call at a friends house. The suspect was a friend. He was drunk. At one point when we had to arrest him for breaking his wife's jaw, he became violent, had to be pepper sprayed (this was before we had tazers) and he ran in to his house. We stopped him just as he was running in to his bedroom. What was in there? An uncased loaded handgun on the dresser beside the bed. Was he going for that...who knows...but it is possible. Again...EVERYONE is a threat.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2010 04:46PM by Nubster.

Nubster,

Curator is using the word "murder" in the vernacular. If I proceed through a green stoplight and fail to avoid broadsiding a woman driving through the intersection crosswise through a red light, and she dies as a result of impact, I am a murderer. I have taken a life, albeit without intent to.

Am slightly disturbed that you apparently condone the repeated tazing of a retreating/prone individual simply because this is "allowed." There is also the matter of what is ethical. And we can all summon from our memories instances when what was "allowed" led to atrocity in our own communities.

Lastly, it is peculiar that you are repostulating events, based on Curator's detailed exposition, as though it is an episode of war history, rather than a domestic, if that. You repeatedly use the word "threat," and I must ask, to whom was the retreating and prone individual a threat? If the police officers were aggressive upon exiting their car, as is alleged, then they were the antagonists in this incident, and ought not to have perceived threat to themselves(being armed and not outnumbered). If you mean this man was perceived to be a threat to his family and other bystanders, well, that is possible but also unlikely given the circumstances of which all of us reading this thread were told.

I agree that this sort of situation must be very stressful to police and that they ought not to be social workers. I don't understand why the family would rely on police authorities to calm an anxious individual; even if this was routine for them it seems a misuse of police personnel. But then, I don't know what actual social services this family has recourse to. Still, I would not call what allegedly happened an "unfortunate incident," which sounds awfully like the sort of unempathic "close ranks, guys" euphemismese that makes so many people distrust the very idea of the police. Again, in the greater scheme of things, this helps no one. It may be impossible, because of your experiences in uniform, to see this the way the public may . . .

Curator: I forgot to say that I give you my sympathies regarding your friend's brother. I know this is upsetting to you and that you are very angry about his death. But you just said that the cops murdered him. Basically you are alledging that they went over there wanting to kill someone. My feeling is that with all the stress nowadays with armed offenders, they sometimes are too quick on the draw. I cannot stress enough that if people have relatives with mental illness or are special needs, they have some kind of plan for what to do in this sort of situation. You said that he was acting upset enough for the family to call the cops. Perhas there are other numbers to call? Did he go to special education classes? They should have discussed his tendency to freak out with professionals. Police are trained to deal with violent criminals. They don't know about autism and how it may manifest as refusing to obey instructions, screaming, etc. So it would behoove families raising such a child to figure out who is part of their support system. But to accuse the cops of deliberately killing a disabled man seems a bit much. I do understand your anger and sadness about it. It's too bad that this happened.

Tamukka: Curator could have easily said 'killed.' I believe that he thinks this was done out of malice. God knows why people think that the majority of police want to kill or otherwise harm people. Yeah, I get that there are bad cops (I live near Chicago, after all,LOL!). But I also know what a difficult, scary job it must be, especially now with all the automatic weapons and more and more young people raised like wolves who have never had to mind anyone and have no sense of boundaries. The police must be their surrogate parents by default. It really pisses me off! It's something that will never be a healthy alternative, nor will it solve the social problems of generational poverty, lack of education, early parenthood, and other dysfunctional influences. We really need to get off this adolescent attitude of being anti-authority. I know that some have suffered at the hands of cops, but all in all we are lucky to have a group of people willing to protect us for relatively little money.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2010 11:03PM by banana who.

Well then perhaps the word murder should be used in the correct context. The police did not murder anyone so the word murder should not be used when describing the incident.

I also do not condone the repeated tazing of a proned out non-combative subject. What I stated was to refute the OP's insistence that what happened was illegal and against training which it is not. It is NOT illegal to shot someone in the back with a tazer.

By the OP's own statement he stated the subject was "flopping" around. That does not sound like a prone person. To me it sounds like someone that is attempting to resist being arrested. It is not the response of someone in the process of being tazed. Perhaps the result of having been tazed but not in the process thereof. That is likely in my estimation why the subject was tazed a second time. It could be easily articulated that the "flopping" was an act of aggression towards the officers. However I was not there so I cannot say how the "flopping" really look, nor was the OP.

The word threat is used because how many jobs do you know of in this country are there people that want to cause injury to you or kill you because of the job you do? When you are working and at anytime during any incident you can be injured or killed by another person...then yeah, people are to be considered a threat. Case in point...my friend that I had to pepper spray, fight, and arrest. Or the guy that ripped my shoulder apart. Call started off calmly and after a couple minutes of questioning and then some offers of assistance the suspect snapped and by the end of the confrontation I was in the hospital and had to have surgery and 4 months of PT to repair my shoulder. Last case, a co-worker and friend of mine, his father was a DNR officer. Caught a guy littering in a strea, guy that the officer had dealt with several times before and just knew him and got along with him and never had an once of trouble from in the past. This day...the officer after arresting the guy with no problems was nice enough to take him to his house so the guy could grab a shirt...pulled into the drive way, guy bolted in to the house...officer followed only to be met at the door by the guy and a high powered rifle. The funeral was closed casket. So yeah...everyone is a threat when you are an officer of the law.



Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nubster,
>
> Curator is using the word "murder" in the
> vernacular. If I proceed through a green
> stoplight and fail to avoid broadsiding a woman
> driving through the intersection crosswise through
> a red light, and she dies as a result of impact, I
> am a murderer. I have taken a life, albeit
> without intent to.
>
> Am slightly disturbed that you apparently condone
> the repeated tazing of a retreating/prone
> individual simply because this is "allowed."
> There is also the matter of what is ethical. And
> we can all summon from our memories instances when
> what was "allowed" led to atrocity in our own
> communities.
>
> Lastly, it is peculiar that you are repostulating
> events, based on Curator's detailed exposition, as
> though it is an episode of war history, rather
> than a domestic, if that. You repeatedly use the
> word "threat," and I must ask, to whom was the
> retreating and prone individual a threat? If the
> police officers were aggressive upon exiting their
> car, as is alleged, then they were the antagonists
> in this incident, and ought not to have perceived
> threat to themselves(being armed and not
> outnumbered). If you mean this man was perceived
> to be a threat to his family and other bystanders,
> well, that is possible but also unlikely given the
> circumstances of which all of us reading this
> thread were told.
>
> I agree that this sort of situation must be very
> stressful to police and that they ought not to be
> social workers. I don't understand why the family
> would rely on police authorities to calm an
> anxious individual; even if this was routine for
> them it seems a misuse of police personnel. But
> then, I don't know what actual social services
> this family has recourse to. Still, I would not
> call what allegedly happened an "unfortunate
> incident," which sounds awfully like the sort of
> unempathic "close ranks, guys" euphemismese that
> makes so many people distrust the very idea of the
> police. Again, in the greater scheme of things,
> this helps no one. It may be impossible, because
> of your experiences in uniform, to see this the
> way the public may . . .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2010 11:37PM by Nubster.

A 5 year old doesn't attempt to resist arrest, a 5 year old (or an "adult" with the mental capacity of a 5 year old) tries with all their might to get the hell away from things that terrify the pants off of them.
There are the rules, and then there is working within the context of the situation. I realize that coming in to a situation those officers may have had very little information to go on and that they weren't likely to trust anything that wasn't absolutely apparent to them, perhaps wanting to subdue this fellow and then ask questions when things were calmer and possibly safer but... a person w downs is hard to mistake for anything other than what they are, a person with diminished mental capacity. I'm not saying that I understand how it all went down, only how it looks to me from the outside and that's all any of us can say.

There is also the fact that most officers receive little to no training on dealing with mentally handicapped persons and are usually instructed to take them in to custody and let the courts/hospital/state deal with them. So when the officer goes by their training and attempts to take the person into custody and the person whether it is resisting or attempting to "get the hell away" then the officer is going to revert to their training. I have been there numerous times so I know how it looks from the INSIDE.

Coco: A person's mental age means nothing if they are big and strong and capable of harming another person. You are right--we don't know all the details--but it appears that the family felt threatened by this person. You would think that they would know how to deal with him if he was so gentle, etc., wouldn't you? Unless...he had a side to him that was unpredictable or somehow dangerous and they could not reason with him or subdue him. But I am frankly surprised that they chose the police to deal with this since, as Nubster as noted, police are not trained to be mental health attendants or social workers/psychiatrists or others trained to deal with disturbed individuals. When you call the police to remove someone from your house (what else did they want to do with him?), then expect brute force. Not because the police are sadists overall, but because they are not mental hospital workers trained to deal with psychotic, violent people.

The cops in this town dont have much better to do, 90% of their calls are for help with domestic situations, they called the sheriffs department (directly, not 911 btw, forgot to specify that last time) and asked them to send over officers as they have done before to talk with him so he will calm down when they had some that weren't busy, as he always listens to police officers, they weren't called out for an emergency or anything like that, The ONLY reason anything went wrong here, is because of the officers direct behavior, Nubster, I outlined what the california state Law says is alegal use of a taser, THEIR USE WAS NOT LEGAL BY CALIFORNIA STATE LAW, im sorry, my opinions are based on law, your opinion are based on BS, you got a problem with that, take it up with the state legislature, I have 3 friends who are police officers and KNEW this man, and NONE OF THEM SUPPORT THE ACTIONS OF THOSE OFFICERS! EVERYONE in the department knows at least OF him, a couple have even taken him on a ride along for his birthday once, which till the day he died, he hadn't stopped talking about.

I am not telling ANY lies nubster, its the law, you dont like it, go somewhere else, I did not go to the academy, I WAS tased (in the back) as part of a demonstration for highschool kids which I volunteered for, and I tensed up like you described, then flailed wildly immediately after, the fact he was tased in the back proves he wasnt charging them nubster, which shows THEY WHERE LYING,you can't tase a man in the back who is charging at you, that is impossible, ALL of the families and friends AND now neighbors testimony lines up perfectly, the cops report is the only one that doesnt jive with what everyone else says they saw, and your saying that their testimony is more reliable when their own statements contain obvious logical faults as the sequence of events they describe is literally impossible ? your repeated defense of their behavior is ridiculous, PLUS the insult you posted on my formspring account anonymously is ridiculous and childish, you have something to say to me, say it to my face, but thanks for the proof of your cowardice.

For it to be legally murder, they only have to show there was malice, EVERYTHING in their behavior shows there was malice involved, at the BARE minimum if there was NO malice whatsoever, there was depraved indifference, or at least negligent homicide, they would at least get man 1 if justice was to be served, as if it was any licensed civilian who fired the tasers, and if it can be proven that they acted aggressively from the start, then they could get murder 3, or possibly even 2... Last time I checked though, legally, If I was to get in a car, and drive 100MPH and accidentally hit some one and kill them, id be charged with MURDER, even though I had no malice towards that person, the charge would still be murder, because I was doing something I knew was dangerous to others, and somebody died because of it.

He is NOT the first man to die from two taser hits,(or less) perfectly healthy individuals have died from it be4, its not the getting hit at the SAME TIME as I already stated, it was being hit, THEN being hit again afterward, puts allot of strain on the body, being hit at the same time, has almost the same effect as being hit once, just a little stronger, being hit once, then being tased again puts more stress on the heart and other muscles than being tased by two tasers at the same time, it can literally tear a heart apart, thats been proven, try google for 5 minutes be4 you talk next time, its why the use of tasers are being seriously reconsidered around the country, as they've been proven to be far more fatal than originally thought, and aren't really effective against the truly dangerous people who are on drugs... one hit from a taser is more than enough to take down anyone who isnt on drugs, my brother was over 350 pounds, mostly muscle, by the time he got on the force, and a single taser took him down like it was nothing...he even crapped his pants...lol...

And banana who, I never said it was the majority of cops, I said the opposite actually, although in my town, it IS the majority, I have stories that would make you sick, some of them even backed up with pictures, a buddy of mine showed me a party he went to where there where 4 officers, and a local judge, all drinking and doing coke, and they had 3 prostitutes between the 5 of them, He secretly took pictures...It gets worse from there, but im gonna stop now, as I dont think even your imagination could come up with anything as bad as what ended up happening...well, maybe, if your very imaginative, and twisted...lol...

Oh, and thanks Tamukha, Im glad to see im not the only one here who sees the obvious holes and peculiarities in Nubsters argument.

And loeve, I understand that, in normal circumstances, with normal people, but they know this guy is mentally disabled and non-violent , there is proof they where lying about the sequence of events, and their actions where illegal by california law unless he really was charging them, which then it would have been impossible for them to shoot him in the back... They where approaching from the street, in front of him, they where yelling at him, one of them pulled a taser, he was sitting till that, and after that and their yelling he got really scared of them, and ran into the house, the opposite direction of where they where standing, so how did he "charge" them? if one cant see the logical flaws in their stated sequence of events, then I dont know what to tell ya...

Nubster,the families testimony, and the what the neighbors say, all line up, and is FAR more reliable than the officers testimony, if their stories where unreliable because of them being upset or distraught by the whole situation, there would be ALLOT more variation in their individual testimony, also its been scientifically proven that memory becomes far more detailed and vivid during times of extreme emotional distress, as its one of the bodies natural primitive responses to such situations, so one remembers them more vividly, so one can better avoid them in the future. (lion killed 3 of my friends when we camped on the ground, so lets camp high up, or with a high fence around us, so lion doesnt eat me or my friends again.) and no, im not saying a lion ate my friends, im giving an example of how it would normally work in a more primitive society... And I know first hand, the details of traumatic events stick in your mind far more accurately than the details of good stuff, I know that from experience.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?