banana who, seems like you havnt even really read most of my statements, and Nubster, it was the officers statement he was flopping, not mine, I dont know if he was flopping around or not, they said he was, but they had no reason to act aggressively to him in the first place, let alone tase him.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Show me the law...not your interpretation of it.

And flailing around after getting tazed...well...I have video of me as well as ten other officers that I worked with when we were tazed during training. Not one flailed during or after. Watching multiple videos on the internet I don't see people flailing about during or after. In your own words the guy was flailing around VIOLENTY. That is cause to taze a second time. Yeah, tazers can kill, so can pepper spray, so can hands on techniques, so can sitting on the toilet and taking a @#$%&...do you suggest we stop doing all these things?

Anyways...you are not worth anymore of my time or effort. You can cry and snivel all you want and from many of your other threads here you seem quite good at it. You can post whatever rebuttal you wish but I won't be reading it. You are just not worth it. I will not however be going anywhere.

The officers said he was flailing violently, also, I called one of my cop friends, he says your full of crap on tasers, that if both prongs didnt stick in correctly, it wouldnt even have any effect as the circuit wouldnt be completed, so if he was tased initially and fell like they stated, then your assumption that one of the prongs must not have engaged correctly, is false, otherwise he wouldnt have been knocked down by the taser.

None of the things you list are capable and known to kill a person OFTEN, tasers are.

its not my interpretation of the law, I posted the courts interpretation, it took me less time than writing this response to you to find it, try google sometime, its a great modern convenience.

"Some jurisdictions still use the term malice aforethought to define intentional murder, but many have changed or elaborated on the term in order to describe more clearly a murderous state of mind. California has retained the malice aforethought definition of murder (Cal. Penal Code § 187 [West 1996]). It also maintains a statute that defines the term malice. Under section 188 of the California Penal Code, malice is divided into two types: express and implied. Express malice exists "when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a fellow creature." Malice may be implied by a judge or jury "when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart."

"Many states use the California definition of implied malice to describe an unintentional killing that is charged as murder because the defendant intended to do serious bodily injury, or acted with extreme recklessness. For example, if an aggressor punches a victim in the nose, intending only to injure the victim's face, the aggressor may be charged with murder if the victim dies from the blow. The infliction of serious bodily injury becomes the equivalent of an intent to kill when the victim dies. Although the aggressor in such a case did not have the express desire to kill the victim, he or she would not be charged with assault, but with murder. To understand why, it is helpful to consider the alternative: When a person dies at the hands of an aggressor, it does not sit well with the public conscience to preclude a murder charge simply because the aggressor intended only to do serious bodily injury. "

"A person who unintentionally causes the death of another person also may be charged with murder under the depraved-heart theory. Depraved-heart murder refers to a killing that results from gross negligence. For example, suppose that a man is practicing shooting his gun in his backyard, located in a suburban area. If the man accidentally shoots and kills someone, he can be charged with murder under the depraved-heart theory, if gross negligence is proven. "

theres much more on this site if youd like to check out and actually read up on the actual law for once, theres a few thousand other sites out there too...
[lawbrain.com]

Seems like their behavior as reported by now, 4 members of the family, the victims brothers girlfriend, and now 7 neighbors, seems to show an "abandoned and malignant heart." since for what other reason did they have to act they way they did towards a mentally disabled person who has not ONE incidence of violence in his entire life, I work with people like him for a living, work with children usually, and occasionally adults, and he was the sweetest and most gentle one ive ever known... Also, the police department itself has sent in the tasers to be analyzed to tell how many times theyve been fired, as the officers each say they only fired once, but the department after checking the battery levels of the tasers, believe they may have shocked him over a DOZEN TIMES collectively.

And the previous post I made showing the legal ruling on what is or isnt excessive use of force when it comes to using tasers, was DIRECTLY from a california Court ruling, one of MANY, not personal opinion, not my interpretation, but the judges exact words.

"What justifies use of a Taser?"
the US Supreme Court said three factors determine "government interest:" the severity of the crime, whether the suspect posed a serious threat to officer safety, and whether the suspect was evading or resisting arrest.

Those are the federal guidelines, which are more loose than california law.

As they had no cause to arrest him in the first place, and they started out acting threatening towards him while he was SITTING DOWN IN THE GRASS in the yard of his own home, one of the officers even drawing a weapon, he was well within his legal rights to run from the officers, as he had committed no crime, and they acted aggressively and threatened violence against him, KNOWING he was mentally disabled and already scared and upset.

Your position in this argument has NO defense, I seldom run into a discussion in which both sides don't have at least close to equal merit, but this is one of them, I reiterate, I am so so happy your not an officer anymore, its guys like you that give the good officers a bad name, although I AM sorry about how it happened, I would've rather it didn't involve a severe injury.

Honestly, once it was obvious you where only defending their actions because they are cops, I should have just ignored you, i know your type, But I just hoped you'd listen to reason, every time I meet somebody like you, I lose a little bit more of my faith in humanity, my only prayer is that you are literally insane, or mentally disabled yourself, so there is some legitimate excuse for your behavior.

If not, I wish you well, and hope you find some semblance of truth and peace someday.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

I know I said I wasn't going to respond anymore to this but I just wanted to say...Oh snap!!!

www.triplicate.com/20100625109390/News/Local-News/Officers-were-fighting-for-their-life

Hopefully this thread doesn't result in more of you insipid, oh woo is me threads that waste bandwidth as well as people's time. Regardless of how pathetic your life seems to be...everyone else here actually has a life.

Dude the paper is only printing the officers side of the story, all the information from witnesses rebutts that,every witness says he didnt attack them, they are the only ones who say he did, thats the officers story, and my sister was at the hospital when they came in, she said she only saw one injury that was obvious, and it was a scrape on the left arm of one of the officers, that article is based on the testimony of the officers and has nothing about the families testimony on it:/. the cops are lying, their version of events is litterally impossible by the laws of physics, the editor of the newspaper, if you look her up, is childhood friends with current chief of police:/, I even saw a video of the last part of the confrontation my friend jessica took on her cell phone only 30 minutes ago, and neither officer looked injured at all:/

Edit: Oh, jessica is on the phone with me right now, saying that her boyfriends mom says everything they evenlisted about the call was a lie on the paper, this is just getting crazier and crazier im moving out of this town as soon as possible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2010 05:10AM by Curator.

I will give you though, that this is the first ive heard of any meds being switched, the family hasnt mentioned it, I will ask them about it, im about to call jess back as I didnt think about it when I was talking to her a minute ago.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Jess confirms his meds had been changed recently, she says though that her boyfriends mom didnt call 911 though, and that he was sitting in the lawn when the cops got there, and everything else you know from what I already told you, her and the entire family says the paper is only telling the deputies side of the story, jessicas video shows the deputies fell over when he was flailing around on the ground after the first taser shot, and thats how they got injured, I didnt see any blood or anything on the officers head, but I see the scrape on the left arm of the other officer, the video is kinda crappy, I'll see if I can get her to put it up on youtube, then I will share the link!!!

Edit: Iasked jess about it, she said her cell phone has been confiscated as "evidence" but that there is an article in the paper now detailing their side of the story, except they heavily edited it, but that its better than nothing, it should be up on the website by tomorrow probably, they are still mad at the paper though since they supposedly edited more than half the content of the mothers statement and changed the wording of some parts... but we shall see.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2010 05:39AM by Curator.

im thinking about some stuff nubster, and I think I owe you an apology, Im thinking about a few of the things jess and her boyfriend have told me just ithe last few hours, and things they told me yesterday, and the day be4... and some stuff doesnt match up perfectly, plus it is EXTREMELY convenient that the video gets confiscated 20 minutes after I saw it, (it was only about 11 seconds long and I couldnt see very well except there where two officers and a man prone on akitchen floor flailing around, and they fell down, but it sure looks like how they described) the timing just seems...to convenient...i dunno, I have my doubts now ok... its just...weird, I dunno... but I apologize for saying im glad your not a cop anymore, I was angry, and either way, whether your right or wrong, that was to far, and i was wrong to say it.

On another point though, I still think most of the evidence points to police misconduct, especially since the family says it was their lawyer who demanded an outside investigation, not anyone in the police department... we shall see.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

damnit...damnit...crap... nubster... I am sorry, ive been talking with jess, I brought up that it seems REALLY convenient that she tells me the cops confiscated the video, shortly after she showed it to me, it turns out it is not the whole video, she showed me an edited version...she says the full version shows something a bit different, I have not seen the full version yet, but this is what she says is on it, it shows them chasing him into the house, him throwing a punch at one of the cops chasing him then turning around and trying to run more, the cops raise their arm, I assume its the taser, but its not very clear, he hits the ground, flails around, cops fall over, get back up and tase him again, that last part is the part I saw, starting right after the punch, I still think they used excessive force since at the time he wasnt even trying to stand up, but your right, I dont believe they committed murder, or even manslaughter, im starting to believe at this point, it was just a tragic accident, I dont even know after finding out they edited the video they showed me, If I even trust the rest of their story...

You seem like you where mostly right, I WILL say however that with all the information that was on hand, it stills comes off like you where defending them just cause they where cops,And I still dont really like you at all, but your instinct seems like it might be right in this situation, and as far as im concerned, I have 5 less friends, as I dont care to continue to be friends with people who would lie about something like this, you cant blame me for believing it though when the cops have done so many messed up things in this town, many things I HAVE seen with my own eyes, just last year they shot and killed an unarmed man (who was acting aggressively) down the road from wal-mart... so you can see how one would be apt to think police in the same department would be likely to be more careful, but share similar mindsets of their friends that led to such an incident... All in all, the changing of the meds seems to be the biggest culprit, as he has always been the gentlest guy...I just dont know what to think anymore.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

>Not sure where you received your LE training but it it NOT illegal to taze a non-aggressive person. I can taze you for non-compliance. The tazer is the same as using pepper spray on the use of force continuum.<

Nubster, you sound like an angry person. I don't believe tazering is appropriate in many of the situations in which it's used. Sounds like this was one.

You are so personally involved, because of your involvement in law enforcement, perhaps you need to chill.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

>Not sure where you received your LE training but it it NOT illegal to taze a non-aggressive person. I can taze you for non-compliance. The tazer is the same as using pepper spray on the use of force continuum.<

Man, that is a scary thought. "Non-compliance" could be up to the officer's overzealous interpretation of a given situation. I don't want some guy who is having a bad day & is a bit edgy to decide to taze me...

Kwan...

I am sure you are following the story in your area of the cop who punched the fleeing offender in the head several times after pulling him over...this was after the offender was in a submissive position...

can you say, "excessive force..."

No one needs to be punched in the head...

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but check out the video...

[www.youtube.com]

Ten or twelve officers swarm all over the guy, all wanting a piece of the action. Yes, obviously the offender was clearly in the wrong, I suppose tazing may have been an option in this case.

If you watch the vid closely, the first officer to reach him has his arm drawn back with a fist ready to strike even before he reaches him.

Curater, don't know all the details of your situation, but as other have mentioned, domestic cases can get very ugly. The police have a tough job to do, and sometimes poor judgment is involved.

We can sit here and "armchair quarterback" because we have all the time in the world to rationalize about it now, but in tense seconds during an altercation, the police do not have that liberty.

My condolences to you and the family...

Curator: Good for you to acknowledge this new info! As for corrupt police, yeah--there were some cops around here who busted people for drugs, stole them for profit or maybe took them for partying. But we can look to any profession and point to the bad seeds. For some reason, many people with liberal bents tend to resent authority including police. I do not! The thing which really makes me batty is when people say: "Well, they didn't have to treat him so roughly. They first should have talked to him, etc." First of all, if it's so easy to interact with the subject, then why can't the family do so? The family should be the last group of people that these "misunderstood, gentle souls" would flip out on and yet they do. Whether it's due to mental illess (paranoid schizophrenics), drugs (PCP, alcohol, crack, meth), or a pathologically short fuse, it doesn't matter. Why should a cop risk getting shot by being overly touchy feely when someone is out of their minds? If the family had called a mental hospital, they would come by with a syringe full of Valium or Thorazine, and a butterfly net or a straight jacket, not a Hallmark card and chocolates and teddy bear, LOL

Ok...I'm back. Not to bring up anything about the OP or the original topic but to address the excessive force thing in general. I agree. There is a lot of that going on around the country. But it is not a new thing...just being brought to light much more often now that most people have a camera and/or video recorder in their pocket.

I don't agree with it and would never purposely do something excessively like that but it does happen. It has happened to me and I am generally a very mild mannered person, even when in uniform. I have had many other officers comment about how I took so much more verbal abuse from a person then they would have. I am just not typically a violent person. However there are circumstances when emotions and adrenaline and getting caught up in the moment just takes control and sometimes things get a little out of hand. I personally have never injured anyone but I may have handled them a little rougher than needed and after things calmed down and I had time to reflect I always felt really bad about it. It is definitely nothing that I am proud of nor do I brag about it to anyone. In 10 year on the job that has happened maybe half a dozen times. I know that is 6 times too many and people look at LE officers to be in more control of themselves and honestly most are but there are just some of those extreme situations and we are human after all. Now I am not taking up for anyone, just giving you guys a different perspective. I whole heartedly disagree with the out right disregard for other people's safety and well being and purposely doing things like punching someone repeatedly while they are on the ground or using a baton on someone needlessly or using things like a tazer or pepper spray as punishment. That kinda crap don't fly with me. And even if they are officers of the law and there is a brotherhood, I still don't get angry when I hear about an officer getting charged and convicted of doing these things. They deserve it and it does do a lot to damage the publics perception and trust in LE.

There are definitely officers on the other side of the coin though. There are some that enjoy inflicting pain on others just because they can. I personally never ran in to any as a LE officer but there were a lot in the jails I worked at. I don't know if that is typical that correctional officers tend to be more aggressive and seemed to get pleasure from hurting other but that was my experience. Now I did work with some LE officers that enjoyed getting in to physical altercations with people but once the suspect was subdued it was over...there was no extra shots taken or excessive force used. Heck...when I first started I was one of those. I did not try to provoke things and didn't really need to...it seems there is never a shortage of drunks that like to fight the cops. So when I was younger in my 20's I did actually like to get a little hands-on with some bad guys but like I said...when it was over it was over. Those fights were never fights were punches were thrown or anything like that....usually just the guy not wanting to be arrested so they would resist and wrestle trying to get away.

And to address the comment about tazing someone for non-compliance...I am not saying I do it (I have never tazed anyone matter of fact) or do I even condone it. I was simply stating that it is allowed, that the person does not have to be violent or combative to be allowed to taze them. A prime example of a situation would be one time a co-worker had arrested a guy for domestic battery. Took the guy out of the house in handcuffs and to the back of the cruiser. Attempted to get the guy in the back seat and he wouldn't go. He kept moving around and squirming to avoid being placed in the car. Not really combative and not violent but being completely defiant. So the officer removed the cartridge from the tazer that contains the probes and used the tazer to drive stun the guy in the side of his leg. Drive stunning is a pain compliance technique that hurts like hell rather than tazing the guy causing him to loose control of his body. The guy was more than happy to get in the car after that. So by using the drive stun the officer prevented himself from getting hurt or the prisoner from getting hurt other than the momentary pain he received.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2010 06:57PM by Nubster.

Nubster...you are one of the good ones....we need more like you...

If that is accurate, then I agree with Juicer katz nubster, unfortunately in our small town we have had to deal with allot of officers who do not share your feelings on the use of force, even in tennesee I "met" quite a few since I was living in a really bad neighborhood, who where as bad as the people they where supposed to be protecting us against... I don't believe they are indicative of the majority of officers in the U.S. though, its just difficult to really believe In good cops when you've mostly been exposed to rotten ones.

I over reacted to your Initial statement, and showed far less control in my reaction to it than I should have, after now having lost 3 friends since january to senseless and disturbing situations, you are right, im not in the best shape emotionally, im in the process of rebuilding myself, learning and growing, and some of my behavior here I think was a bit of a stumbling block, but I believe ive learned something from it, so my only regret in the situation is having obviously offended you in a way that was not entirely fair for me to do, but id like to bury the hatchet so to speak, we don't have to be friends, But id like us to not be enemies, and for there to hopefully be no bad blood between us.
Namaste.

No bad blood. This is America...we have the right to disagree with each other without having to hate each other. So no worries.

Cool.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Well that was civil ! I admire people who can admit being wrong Curator. I'm not saying that I feel that you are or were, but being able to concede to another when there is so much stigma of weakness ascociated with it is a sign of real strength in my eyes.

er, uh... thanks Lightform...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

I can only imagine what a useful and relatively safe device a taser must be from the point of the law enforcement person, but there is no doubt they can be misused, and with very tragic consequences.

[en.wikipedia.org]

While I was reading this thread from the beginning, I totally refrained from saying anything because:

1) I wasn't there.

2) I wasn't there.

3) I wasn't there.


The reason why my emphasis on this is emphatic is due to the fact that nothing can ever be said with 100% certainty if one is not there. When people tell me about certain things, even if they are my friend, neighbor, relative etc, I do not automatically take side with them.

This is out of total respect for

1. myself
2. the people who were in the situation
3. the person who is telling me whatever information

It is plenty obvious that there are situations where things get out of hand during LE scenarios. There are also the countless times when things were handled correctly as well. Those events don't exactly make headline news.

I will however say that a cop's performance is not always a matter of " good cop" or "bad cop".Those labels are not very pragmatic. I think that ability , strength and skill DO matter in a LOT of situations and will MOST DEFINETELY guarantee, in quite a few cases, whether or not they will make it out of the situation alive or with minimal injury and also determine the degree of "subduing" that will occur on the "suspect/assailant". If we were to assume that an individual cop has a sound mind, good intent, excellent judgement and ability to "read" and read very quickly, a situation, now it will all boil down to his/her ABILITY. I know people who are in LE and they operate quite differently from most people. The best ones are the ones that have worked extremely hard to work on themselves physically, spiritually, mentally and emotionally in order to do the right thing.
It is definetely not an easy job. That's all I have to say. I can't comment about what happened in this particular situation even if Nubster posted the article simply because , once again,

I was not there. IMO, the only "evidence" is me "being there". Also, there is "evidence" and interpretation of evidence and those could be entirely different universes apart. There is also the fact that a lot of things can never be proven such as motive, intent etc. So, once again, all I will say is, this is an imperfect world and things get done imperfectly. Any time a violent person is subdued with no injury is an incredible success. There have been many of those instances too as well. Those instances are expected by LE but actually a TREMENDOUS amount of skill is involved in order to placate, subdue etc. without injury, harm or death depending on the intensity of violence by the person who is resisting.

Obviously, I do not condone malicious intent followed by the manifestation of that malice with excessive force and one can point to numerous cases of abuse of power.

I, however, am not talking about those types.

My only point is that it is enormously difficult to subdue extremely physically violent behaviour in a non violent fashion and those LE officers who are capable of doing so have extraordinary ability. Most do not have that ability not because they are evil people but simply because it IS incredibly difficult to do.

On television and in the movies, they make it looks SO EASY to simply disarm a person with a weapon or get a violent individual into an arm bar, head lock etc. but the reality is QUITE different. Accomplishing these things while the person is NOT cooperating but sweaty ( hence hard to get a hold of) moving very quickly, powerfully, erratically and fiercely is NOT an easy thing to do.

If you don't believe me, try handcuffing or simply imagining handcuffing someone who is being violent towards you in a peaceful manner.

Whether or not a situation was handled in a "right" or "wrong" way, a situation in which extreme physical violence or movement is involved is NOT a piece of cake to placate.

I don't think I could do it therefore it is hard for me to respond in regards to how a situation was handled because unless the person is coming straight at ME...I am not sure how exactly I would handle the situation short of running away but if there is nowhere to run to ( like in a closed or partitioned off location) then one doesn't even have THAT luxury.

I think that being an LE officer is kind of one of those IMPOSSIBLE jobs esp. when dealing with extreme violence. They are kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2010 07:52AM by la_veronique.

I would completely agree, if they where dealing with extreme violence... Ive seen the complete video now, and he was running away from them, and did nothing violent at all till they chased him, he had committed no crime to begin with, and they knew he was mentally disabled, so they where to aggressive towards him given the initial situation, oh, also, the "head injury" I saw in person on that officer, two staples... not even caused by the the man he was tasing, but by tripping on his flailing legs after he had been tased... he did take one swing at the officers though, and I no longer believe the officers meant to kill him, but I do believe, as do all 3 of my friends who are officers as well who even work with these men, that they handled the situation incorrectly... (a fight for your life against an unarmed man, and one ends up with a long shallow scrape on his arm, and the other with 2 staples?) there is actually a pretty big divide in the department right now between those who support them and those who condemn them, luckily for them, their boss is on the "support" side.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

I wasn't there so my comments were not intended to either support or condemn what happened in that particular case. I was, however, speaking in general terms.

I'll never know exactly what happened. Videos are also one of those things that appear to be "evidence" but are not always depending on who took the video, what parts may or may not have been edited, deleted, not included, included ... etc.

Videos also don't prove intent, motive, train of thinking etc. Those things precede all action and are not necessarily visually evident. Strength of force may also not be evident on a video. If one is at the receiving end, it may seem a lot different than if one were simply looking at a video.

Were the cops right?
I don't know.

Were the cops wrong?
I don't know.

What were the exact frame of mind for all who were involved?
I don't know.

Were the videos totally accurate?
I don't know.

Were the videos tampered with?
I don't know.

Were the videos showing everything?
I don't know.

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wasn't there so my comments were not intended to
> either support or condemn what happened in that
> particular case. I was, however, speaking in
> general terms.
>
> I'll never know exactly what happened. Videos are
> also one of those things that appear to be
> "evidence" but are not always depending on who
> took the video, what parts may or may not have
> been edited, deleted, not included, included ...
> etc.
>
> Videos also don't prove intent, motive, train of
> thinking etc. Those things precede all action and
> are not necessarily visually evident. Strength of
> force may also not be evident on a video. If one
> is at the receiving end, it may seem a lot
> different than if one were simply looking at a
> video.
>
> Were the cops right?
> I don't know.
>
> Were the cops wrong?
> I don't know.
>
> What were the exact frame of mind for all who were
> involved?
> I don't know.
>
> Were the videos totally accurate?
> I don't know.
>
> Were the videos tampered with?
> I don't know.
>
> Were the videos showing everything?
> I don't know.


That is an interesting point of view, because I share that same feelings. For those reasons, I always refuse jury duty...

I know, someone has to do it, but not me...I simply cannot be fair & impartial...it is not in my nature...plus, I wasn't there...

ah, sorry, it seemed allot like you where defending them in a way in which you where trying not to be offensive to me, but its cool either way, whether you truly have no opinion, or yours is the opposite of mine, I dont mind, I do think it would be cool though if the Op would delete this thread, as Im still quite emotionally invested in his death, and im just not going to be able to just not respond if people continue to comment on it...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Understood

I wish you and all involved much healing.