Here's one for the fishermen in your lives...

[healthypets.mercola.com]
Fish: The "Throwaway" Pet That Can Live Up to 30 Years
November 13, 2014

...

Do Fish Feel Pain?

There’s an ongoing debate over whether or not fish feel pain, but if you’re wondering whether anesthesia is necessary for a fish surgery, there’s accumulating research suggesting it certainly is.

In 2003, researchers found 58 receptors in the heads of rainbow trout that responded to electrical and chemical shocks. The fish also rubbed their lips into the gravel and against the sides of their tank, while their ventilation rate increased nearly double after the shocks.

What’s more, when the fish were given morphine, their pain-related behaviors were significantly reduced, as was their ventilation rate. The researchers concluded that “these pain-related behaviors are not simple reflexes and therefore there is the potential for pain perception in fish.”1

Dr. Culum Brown, a professor in the Department of Biological Sciences at Macquarie University, has stated that pain perception is deep rooted in vertebrates since it is essential to animal survival. And not only does he believe it’s obvious that fish feel pain, he also lead a newly published study that showed fish may have significant cognitive abilities, too.

New Study: Fish Are Intelligent, Deserve Compassion

According to Dr. Brown, fish perception and cognitive abilities match or exceed that of other vertebrates. In a review published in Animal Cognition,2 he shows evidence that fish:3

Perform multiple complex tasks simultaneously (a trait that was once believed to exist only among humans)
Recall the location of objects using “feature cues” (which humans figure out how to do around age 6)
Have excellent long-term memories
"Cooperate with one another and show signs of Machiavellian intelligence such as cooperation and reconciliation”
Use tools

Given his decades of research, Dr. Brown believes fish should be afforded the same level of compassion and welfare as warm-blooded vertebrates, but unfortunately most view them only as food or pets (and as pets, they are often not given the same level of care as dogs, cats, or birds). He writes:

“Part of the problem is the large gap between people’s perception of fish intelligence and the scientific reality. This is an important issue because public perception guides government policy. The perception of an animal’s intelligence often drives our decision whether or not to include them in our moral circle.

From a welfare perspective, most researchers would suggest that if an animal is sentient, then it can most likely suffer and should therefore be offered some form of formal protection.

…Although scientists cannot provide a definitive answer on the level of consciousness for any non-human vertebrate, the extensive evidence of fish behavioral and cognitive sophistication and pain perception suggests that the best practice would be to lend fish the same level of protection as any other vertebrate.”

Fish Become Angry if Forced to Live in Small, Barren Spaces

...
[healthypets.mercola.com]

Agree completely about fish. Fish are animals with physical and emotional feelings - just like all animals.

Two of the saddest sights: a bird in a cage, and a fish in a bowl.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Two of the saddest sights: a bird in a cage, and
> a fish in a bowl.

Suez owns caged parrots but she likes to criticize people for climbing trees and damaging the bark.

Maybe this thread is about compassion for animals. Humans for instance.

I like everyone here even when we disagree. No one is exactly like me, and I think this is a good thing. John Rose would probably agree.

I appreciate who I am, but whoever is not me is fortunate for it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2014 10:11AM by suncloud.

<<<Maybe this thread is about compassion for animals. Humans for instance.>>>

Yes, since we are supposed to be the Guardians on this planet and since we are FAILING miserably, we need to put humans first because that's why so many other animals are being tortured - it's because we are being tortured and we're doing it to ourselves.

<<<I like everyone here even when we disagree. No one is exactly like me, and I think this is a good thing. John Rose would probably agree. >>>

PROBABLY!!!

Why do you think I am so passionate about Mis-Information?

I don't get upset when someone attacks me personally, but when anyone attacks the Truth, I come to its defense.

<<<Two of the saddest sights: a bird in a cage, and a fish in a bowl.>>>

Yes, I agree - these are indeed sad sights to see, but an even worse sight is when we are enslaved but we don't see the bars!

“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” -Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> “None are more hopelessly enslaved than those
> who falsely believe they are free.” -Johann
> Wolfgang Von Goethe

Mm, maybe, unless you happen to actually be a bird in a cage or a fish in a bowl.

...Or maybe a drug addict.

Drug addicts are often pretty hopelessly enslaved. Looking at the positive, nothing is really hopeless, because nothing lasts forever.

I don't think there's a designated judge for which of us falsely believes we are free. Maybe the judge is the one who falsely believes he/she is free.

All we can do is make our best choices, and allow others to do the same.

It's possible that the ones who are most enslaved are those who are trapped and tortured by their passion to enslave the thoughts of others.

In that respect, good thing we all have a key to the door.

<<<It's possible that the ones who are most enslaved are those who are trapped and tortured by their passion to enslave the thoughts of others.>>>

Those who are most enslaved are those who are IGNORANT and refuse to WAKE UP!!!

Check out these 2 quotes by Aldous Huxley and Bertrand Russell who were members of the Fabian Society.

"It is perfectly possible for a man to be out of prison, and yet not free - to be under no physical constraint and yet to be a psychological captive, compelled to think, feel and act as the representatives of the national state, or of some private interest within the nation, wants him to think, feel and act. The nature of psychological compulsion is such that those who act under constraint remain under the impression that they are acting on their own initiative. The victim of mind-manipulation does not know that he is a victim. To him the walls of his prison are invisible, and he believes himself to be free. That he is not free is apparent only to other people. His servitude is strictly objective." -Aldous Huxley, Brave New World Revisited, 1958

“Diet, Injections and Injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible. Even if all are miserable, all will believe themselves happy, because the government will tell them that they are so.” -Bertrand Russell, The Impact of Science on Society 1953

Here are a few snippets from my file on the Fabian Society...

In 1884 the Fabian Society was formed, chartered by the Crown, with the purpose of ushering in a one world collectivist state through gradualism (versus violent revolution). This would become the basis for what is today called Fabian Socialism.

Fabians also played a large part in the creation of the League of Nations — the forerunner to the United Nations — and were extremely influential in creating the UN itself.

Here's a small snippet from my file on the United Nations...

1945 – 49

The role of the Rockefeller brothers was not limited to taking over the global monopoly of taking control of the global oil and drug business. They also needed the political framework for this. Under their influence the United Nations were founded already in 1945 in San Francisco. To seize political control of the post war world, they used a trick to fight countries, three of them leading drug export nations, had all the say, while 200 other nations were rendered spectators.

Founded as organizations to allegedly serve the well being of the people of the world, the UN suborganizations, like the World Health Organization (WHO) [WHO was founded in 1948] and World Trade Organization (WTO) soon turned out to be nothing else than the political arms of the global oil and drug interests.

1963

On behalf of the Rockefeller interests, the government of the pharmaceutical banana republic Germany spearheaded one of the most infamous efforts ever made within the United Nations. Under the pretense of consumer protection, they launched a four decade long crusade to outlaw vitamin therapies and other natural, non-patentable health approaches for all member countries of the United Nations. The goal was to simply ban any and all competition for the multi-billion dollar business with patented drugs. The plan was simple: copy for the entire world what they had accomplished in America in the 1920s – a monopoly on health care for their investment business with patented drugs.

Since the market place of the pharmaceutical investment business are ongoing diseases, the drugs they developed were not intended to prevent, cure or eradicate diseases. Thus, the goal of this global strategy was to monopolize health for billions of people with pills that nearly cover symptoms but hardly ever address the root cause of disease. The deprivation of billions of people from having access to life saving information about the health benefits of natural health approaches and – at the same time establishing a monopoly with largely ineffective and frequently toxic patented drugs, caused disease and death in genocidal proportions.

This epidemic of unnecessary disability and death by the pharmaceutical business with disease is unparalleled in history.

Now Connect the Dots...

The Fabian Society - Rockefeller - Organized Medicine - Diet - Injections (FORCED VACCINATIONS) - Injunctions = SLAVERY!!!

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Two of the saddest sights: a bird in a cage, and
> a fish in a bowl.

I grew up in a family that always had many animal companions in it - some domestics but a lot of exotics, too. The humans are part of their herd and flock in such a situation and they seem to enjoy their life in the hubbub of the safe surrogate wilds more than most of their out on their own brethren do IMO and observations. They also live far longer than they would have in a more natural competitive setting - which isn't all that much different than for humans who live in modern homes in first world civilizations if you care to think about it.

Furthermore, this parrot is the most infectiously happy creature I've ever witnessed in my whole life - and I've seen more than most. He was hand fed by us as a baby and has been a working member of the family, (who takes his self appointed duties very seriously), for 29.5 years.

Fish, if they are adequately cared for - which is not easy to do - can also make fabulous family members. Even invertebrates can have long enjoyable lives in captivity - and yes, they do interact with humans and even play favorites, too.

I feel sorry for people who have no knowledge of what it is like when they are growing up to cohabitate with other species. They really have missed out on an awfully lot of life's enrichments.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> suncloud, I don't want to get too into this but
> the parrot assigns himself tasks like letting me
> know when someone who shouldn't was getting up and
> wandering at night in the dark - boy was that a
> valuable duty he took on himself. He would loudly
> call my name until I got downstairs. He is a very
> good watch bird otherwise, too. He calls me to the
> phone when it's ringing, makes me change out alarm
> batteries and timers quickly, and tells me when
> clothes are done in the drier. These days he lets
> me know when it's time for me to leave and turn
> out the lights at night. He starts out nicely
> telling me in his sweet voice "goodnight" then, if
> I don't get the hint, he will turn to his stern
> voice and tell me to "go to bed" which he learned
> from people getting the dogs to go to bed
> quickly.

That's amazing SueZ!!! I just think all animals are really really smart, and your bird is definitely a case in point. Very sweet, your mutual feelings for each other.

> The dogs, by comparison, were not too into
> working. I'm sure they would have hidden behind me
> at the sight of a wild boar.

Yeah, my dog is just crazy. Always has been. Great watchdog though! And he has an incredible sense of humor. I can't even go into it, but he plays jokes on us all the time and laughs, laughs, laughs!

> If I were where you are I certainly would need
> guns for protection. I hope you are able to move
> soon to a less dangerous area. I'm scared of wild
> pigs, wildcats, and bears. I was within two feet
> of a bear once when I was camping and I was not
> happy about that. To make it even more
> unforgettable it was raining and there is nothing
> worse than the smell of a wet bear that I've run
> into.

I've never smelt a wet bear! That must have been scary! Wild pigs smell very bad too, or at least very strong.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > suncloud, I don't want to get too into this but
> > the parrot assigns himself tasks like letting
> me
> > know when someone who shouldn't was getting up
> and
> > wandering at night in the dark - boy was that a
> > valuable duty he took on himself. He would
> loudly
> > call my name until I got downstairs. He is a
> very
> > good watch bird otherwise, too. He calls me to
> the
> > phone when it's ringing, makes me change out
> alarm
> > batteries and timers quickly, and tells me when
> > clothes are done in the drier. These days he
> lets
> > me know when it's time for me to leave and turn
> > out the lights at night. He starts out nicely
> > telling me in his sweet voice "goodnight" then,
> if
> > I don't get the hint, he will turn to his stern
> > voice and tell me to "go to bed" which he
> learned
> > from people getting the dogs to go to bed
> > quickly.
>
> That's amazing SueZ!!! I just think all animals
> are really really smart, and your bird is
> definitely a case in point. Very sweet, your
> mutual feelings for each other.
>
> > The dogs, by comparison, were not too into
> > working. I'm sure they would have hidden behind
> me
> > at the sight of a wild boar.
>
> Yeah, my dog is just crazy. Always has been.
> Great watchdog though! And he has an incredible
> sense of humor. I can't even go into it, but he
> plays jokes on us all the time and laughs, laughs,
> laughs!
>
> > If I were where you are I certainly would need
> > guns for protection. I hope you are able to
> move
> > soon to a less dangerous area. I'm scared of
> wild
> > pigs, wildcats, and bears. I was within two
> feet
> > of a bear once when I was camping and I was not
> > happy about that. To make it even more
> > unforgettable it was raining and there is
> nothing
> > worse than the smell of a wet bear that I've
> run
> > into.
>
> I've never smelt a wet bear! That must have been
> scary! Wild pigs smell very bad too, or at least
> very strong.

I hope I never have to smell a wild pig. I forgot though about skunk smell. Not long ago a skunk by me got killed crossing the road and that area, which I drive through every day, stunk for three whole weeks!

As far as animals intelligence goes I don't really think we humans have devised adequate tests yet for measuring it. I spent a few hours watching ants one day and was completely blown away by their ability to strategize.

Hey suncloud & sUEz,

I'm really looking forward to continuing this conversation, but weekends are not the time I like to spend on the Internet.

In the meantime, here's part of a song that I'm sure you're both familiar with and reminds me of you two and this thread and the Ebola thread...

We're just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish bowl,
Year after year,
Running over the same old ground.
What have we found?
The same old fears.
Wish you were here.

In order to do this topic justice, be looking for a new thread.

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey suncloud & sUEz,
>
> I'm really looking forward to continuing this
> conversation



No thanks. Had enough of your puffed up phony cobbled together trite gas bag disinfo hollering over the backyard fence retardation. Although it's been a pleasure, as always, to talk with suncloud here.

Why don't you stick with hanging out at the local grocer's produce aisles and try to pied piper more young teenagers into going raw vegan since that seems to be all that works for you. Adults aren't going to put up with your hot air spewings.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yes, cos we're all just fish in a bowl.
>
> well atleast I am it seems.

I'm sorry you feel so helpless right now Storm. I hope this will pass for you soon.

Tis the season and all. Maybe you could get some food and give it to your local food bank. Might take your mind off the bad stuff for at least a little bit.

Actually I think I need to take my own suggestion, because my neighbor is collecting food, and I forgot...!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2014 10:41AM by suncloud.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John, phony quotes from an assassinated president
> are a blatant misrepresentation of history.

He doesn't care about blatantly misrepresenting history. Phony representations are his specialty.

Here's another Video, especially for you suncloud - see below.

This Video is perfect because it not only goes over "4 Major Phases of Human Farming" but it also goes over a "three phase process" to keep the Tax Livestock securely in the compounds of the Ruling Classes!!!

The First Phase is to "Indoctrinate the young through Government Education" which partially explains why you think you are Free!

The Third Phase is to invent continual external threats so that the frightened Livestock cling to the protection of the Farmers, e.g. 911, the Swine Flu and the Ebola Hoax!

Anyway, here is the Video and my notes:

[www.youtube.com]
The Story of Your Enslavement
13:09 Minute Video

Stefan Molyneux
Uploaded on Apr 17, 2010
We can only be kept in the cages we do not see. A brief history of human enslavement - up to and including your own.

JR’s Notes:

This is the story of your Enslavement, how it came to be and how you can finally be free. Like all animals, human beings want to dominate and exploit the resources around them.

At first we mostly hunted and fished and ate off the land, but then something magical and terrible happened to our minds. We became alone among the animals afraid of Death and of future loss. And this was the start of a great tragedy and an even greater possibility.

JR Insert: This is where Stefan is missing the most important Piece of the Puzzle. At first we ate a Raw Vegan Diet, but then we made a Mistake and started to Cook our Food and we Lost 1 of our Senses and that Changed our Mentality. Now we Compete for Resources on an Abundant Planet when we should Cooperate and Share the Abundance this Planet has to offer and we Prey Systematically on our own Species.

You see, when we become afraid of death, of injury and imprisonment we become Controllable and so valuable in a way that no other resource could ever be.

The greatest resource for any human being to Control is not natural resources or tools or animals or land but other Human Beings. You can frighten an animal, because animals are afraid of pain in the moment. But you cannot frighten an animal with a loss of liberty with torture or imprisonment in the future because animals have very little sense of 'tomorrow'.

You cannot threaten a cow with torture, or a sheep with death. You cannot swing a sword at a tree and scream at it to produce more fruit or hold a burning torch to a field and demand more wheat. You cannot get more eggs by threatening a hen but you can get a man to give you his eggs by threatening him. This 'Human Farming' has been the most profitable and destructive occupation throughout history and it is now reaching its destructive climax. Human society cannot be rationally understood until it is seen for what it is a series of Farms where Human Farmers own HUMAN Livestock.

Some people get confused because governments provide healthcare and water and education and roads and thus imagine that there is some 'benevolence' at work. Nothing could be further from the reality. Farmers provide 'Healthcare' and 'Irrigation' and training to their 'Livestock'.

Some people get confused because we are allowed certain liberties and thus imagine that our Governments 'protect' our freedoms. But Farmers plant their crops a certain distance apart to increase their yields and will allow certain animals larger 'Stalls' or 'Fields' if it means they will produce more meat and milk.

In your country your 'Tax Farm' - your Farmer grants you certain freedoms - not because he cares about your liberties, but because he wants to increase his profits.

Are you beginning to see the nature of the cage you were born into?

There have been 4 Major Phases of Human Farming. The First Phase, in ancient Egypt, was direct and brutal Human Compulsion. Human Bodies were Controlled, but the Creative Productivity of the Human Mind remained beyond the reach of the whip, and the brand, and the shackles. Slaves remained woefully unproductive and required enormous resources to Control.

The Second Phase was the ‘Roman Model’ wherein Slaves were granted some capacity for Freedom, ingenuity and creativity, which raised their productivity. This increased the Wealth of Rome and thus the Tax Income of the Roman Government and with this additional Wealth, Rome became - an Empire destroying the Economic Freedoms that fed its Power and collapsed. I’m sure that this does not seem entirely unfamiliar.

After the collapse of Rome, the Feudal Model introduced the concept of ‘Livestock Ownership’ and Taxation. Instead of being Directly Owned, Peasants farmed land that they could retain as long as they paid off the local Warlords. This Model eventually broke down due to the continual subdivision of productive land and was destroyed during the Enclosure Movement when land was consolidated and Hundreds of Thousands of Peasants were kicked off their ancestral lands because new farming techniques made larger farms more productive with fewer people. The increased productivity of the Later Middle Ages created the excess Food required for the expansion of towns and cities, which in turn gave rise to the Modern Democratic Model of Human Ownership.

As displaced Peasants flooded into the cities, a huge stock of cheap Human Capital became available to the rising Industrialists and the Ruling Class of Human Farmers quickly realized that they could make more Money by letting their ‘Livestock’ choose their own occupations. Under the Democratic Model, Direct Slave Ownership has been replaced by the ‘Mafia’ Model. The Mafia rarely owns businesses directly but rather, send thugs around once a month to steal from the business owners. You are now allowed to choose your own occupation, which raises your productivity and thus, the taxes you can pay to your masters.

Billy Crystal: "Value this time in your life, kids 'cause this is the time in your life when you still have your choices and it goes by SO fast! When you're a teenager, you think you can do anything and you do - your 20's are a blur - 30's, you raise your family, you make a little money and you think to yourself - what happened to my 20's? 40's you grow a lil' pot belly, you grow another chin - the music starts to get too loud - one of your old girlfriends from high school becomes a grandmother - 50's you'll have a minor surgery - you'll call it a 'procedure' - but it's a surgery - 60's you'll have a major surgery, the music is STILL loud but it doesn't matter because you can't hear it anyway! - 70's you and the wife retire to Fort Lauderdale - you start eating dinner at 2 o'clock in the afternoon - you have lunch around 10, breakfast the night before! - then spend most of your time wandering around malls looking for the ultimate soft yogurt muttering "How come the kids don't call? How come the kids don't call"? In your 80's you'll have a major stroke, and you end up babbling to some Jamaican nurse who your wife can't stand, but who you call 'Mama' - Any questions?"

Your few Freedoms are preserved because they are profitable to your owners. The great challenge of the Democratic Model is that increases in Wealth and Freedom threaten the 'Farmers'! The Ruling Classes initially profit from a relatively 'Free' Market in capital and labor, but as their Livestock become more used to their Freedoms and to growing Wealth, they begin to question why they need 'Rulers' at all. Ah well... Nobody ever said that Human Farming was easy!

Keeping the Tax Livestock securely in the compounds of the Ruling Classes is a three phase process. The first is to Indoctrinate the young through Government "Education". As the wealth of democratic countries grew, government schools were universally inflicted in order to Control the Thoughts - and Souls of the Livestock. The Second Phase is to turn citizens against each other through the creation of 'Dependent Livestock'. It is very difficult to rule human beings directly through force and where it can be achieved, it remains cripplingly underproductive as can be seen in North Korea. Human Beings do not breed well or produce efficiently in direct captivity. Ah, but if Human Beings believe that they are 'free', then they will produce much more for their 'Farmers'. The best way to maintain this 'Illusion' of Freedom is to put some of the Livestock on the payroll of the Farmer. Those 'Cows' that become dependent on the existing hierarchy will then attack any other 'Cows' that point out the Violence, Hypocrisy and Immorality of Human Ownership.

"Officers positioned 'Grant' face first on the floor with one officer near his head - a second near his back and a third officer standing nearby. There appeared to be a brief struggle, then a 2 year veteran Bart officer stands, draws his weapon and fires." [observing crowd shrieks]

9:46 MM
Freedom is Slavery and Slavery is Freedom. If you can get the 'Cows' to attack each other, whenever anybody brings up the reality of their situation, then you don't have to spend nearly as much Controlling them directly. Those 'Cows' who become dependent upon the stolen largess of the 'Farmer' will violently oppose any questioning of the virtue of Human Ownership. And the intellectual and artistic classes always and forever dependent upon the 'Farmers', will say to anyone who demands Freedom from Ownership, "You will harm your fellow Cows". The 'Livestock' are thus kept Enclosed by shifting the moral responsibility for the destructiveness of the violent system to those who demand real Freedom.

The Third Phase is to invent continual external threats so that the frightened Livestock cling to the protection of the Farmers. This system of Human Farming is now nearing its end. The terrible tragedies of Modern Western Economic Systems have occurred, not in spite of, but because of past Economic Freedoms. The massive increases in Western Wealth throughout the 19th Century resulted from Economic Freedoms and it was this very increase in Wealth that fed the size and power of the State. Whenever the Livestock become exponentially more productive, you get a corresponding increase in in the number of 'Farmers' and their dependents.

The growth of the state is always proportional to the preceding Economic Freedoms. Economic Freedoms create Wealth and the Wealth attracts more Thieves and Political 'Parasites' whose Greed then destroys the Economic Freedoms. In other words, Freedom metastasizes the cancer of the State. The Government that starts off the smallest will always end up the largest. This is why there can be no viable and sustainable alternative to a Truly Free and Peaceful Society - a Society without Political Rulers - without Human Ownership - without the Violence of Taxation and Statism. To be Truly Free, is both very easy and very hard.

We avoid the horror of our enslavement because it is so painful to see it directly. We dance around the endless violence of our dying system because we fear the attacks of our fellow Livestock.

But we can only be kept in the cages we refuse to see.

Wake up.

To see the farm is to leave it.
[www.youtube.com]

Well then John, apart from informing everyone that we are all slaves, do you have a plan to help remedy the situation?

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well then John, apart from informing everyone that
> we are all slaves, do you have a plan to help
> remedy the situation?

In other words, once everyone "wakes up" and sees that we are all slaves, what specifically would you like us all to do that we may not already be doing?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2014 01:38AM by suncloud.

<<<Well then John, apart from informing everyone that we are all slaves, do you have a plan to help remedy the situation?>>>

Yes, I've perfected a 3 Step Process so all of us can Play our Individual Role and when I finally figure out a clever way to present it without the vast majority of people Shutting Down their Frontal Lobe, we can put an end to this madness.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2014 02:20AM by John Rose.

OK. And do you have a vision of how things will be different once we've all completed your 3 steps?

Or (kind of a different question) do you have a vision of how things will be different for each individual once we've completed your 3 steps?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2014 02:28AM by suncloud.

<<<In other words, once everyone "wakes up" and sees that we are all slaves, what specifically would you like us all to do that we may not already be doing?>>>

Very few people understand that there are many levels in Plato's Cave and people like Stefan Molyneux don't really know why we are so easily Controlled and Manipulated and they think all we have to do is tell everyone about what's going on. But realizing that we are Slaves does Not get us out of Plato's Cave. Yes, we need to be aware of these Psychopaths so we can work Downstream or do Damage Control, but we need to go Upstream and get Re-Connected.

As I mentioned earlier, we've got the Wrong Mentality because we Lost 1 of our Senses and the only way to Change our Mentality is to stop destroying the Nutrient that Feeds our 6th Sense or our Spidey Sense and that's where Raw Food comes into play because Cooking our Food DESTROYS this Nutrient called a Biophoton by 100%.

Raw Food, of course, is not a panacea because we have other Needs we have to Satisfy based on the Law of Cause & Effect and our Anatomy and we have other Needs we have to Satisfy based on the Ripple Effect and the Damage we've done to our Anatomy, Society and the Environment.

In other words, we have 2 Groups of Needs we must Satisfy in order to get out of Plato's Cave and Return Back to the Garden or Paradise, which is simply a place where we have NO Problems that are 100% Within our Control. Unfortunately, most of us are Not Willing and Able to Satisfy these 2 Groups of Needs, which is why I added why I added 2 Preliminary Steps to the only thing we have to do, thereby, perfecting a 3 Step Process. The 1st Step addresses the Willingness Issue on a Temporary basis so we can see what we’re missing and then, be in a position to take the 2nd Step where we are going to Correct 5 Main Mistakes on a Permanent basis. And then, once we add these 5 Main Mistakes on to our List of Mistakes to Correct, we’ll finally be in a position to take the 3rd Step, which is where we Satisfy these 2 Groups of Needs and I call that the Science and the Art of Solving Problems that are 100% Within our Control.

I've talked about the Science and the Art of Solving Problems that are 100% Within our Control dozens of times over the last several years, so for those who are interested, just do a search and you can read more about it.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2014 03:37AM by John Rose.

<<<OK. And do you have a vision of how things will be different once we've all completed your 3 steps?

Or (kind of a different question) do you have a vision of how things will be different for each individual once we've completed your 3 steps?>>>

Once we reach the Tipping Point, we’ll realize that we are all one and that the more we give the more we receive. At this point, we’ll return to a Gift Mentality or a Gift Economy or a Resource Based Economy that Jacque Fresco spoke of in Zeitgeist Addendum.

And then, in as little as 10 years, we will look back in horror and in disbelief at where we were and what we were doing and how we couldn’t figure out that there was a simple Solution to Solve virtually every Problem that we face as a Species.

By the way, if you really want to understand how all of us are Debt Slaves, watch Zeitgeist Addendum!

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> <<>>
>
> Once we reach the Tipping Point, we’ll realize
> that we are all one and that the more we give the
> more we receive. At this point, we’ll return to
> a Gift Mentality or a Gift Economy or a Resource
> Based Economy that Jacque Fresco spoke of in
> Zeitgeist Addendum.
>
> And then, in as little as 10 years, we will look
> back in horror and in disbelief at where we were
> and what we were doing and how we couldn’t
> figure out that there was a simple Solution to
> Solve virtually every Problem that we face as a
> Species....

If it's possible for us all to be free by figuring out the simple solutions, are we really "slaves"? I'm just wondering if it wouldn't be more productive to focus on the solutions. It seems counter-productive to envision oneself as a slave, especially if a clear alternative is not often presented.

So I checked the website for The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM) [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]. I liked the general idea. Here's a paragraph from their mission statement:

"The movement's principle focus includes the recognition that the majority of the social problems that plague the human species at this time are not the sole result of some institutional corruption, absolute scarcity, a political policy, a flaw of "human nature" or other commonly held assumptions of causality. Rather, the movement recognizes that issues such as poverty, corruption, pollution, homelessness, war, starvation and the like appear to be 'symptoms' born out of an outdated social structure."

It appears that other elements of The Zeitgeist Movement include non-violence advocacy, a focus on logical debate, and better use of technology and "the Scientific Method" for solving problems.

(Basically, the "Scientific Method" involves researching a hypothesis to see if it's valid.)

I'm OK with all of that. Not sure how TZM can/will be applied in real time, past the discussion phase. But discussion is good.

Regarding application, one possible concern might be that "voting" would be replaced by "consensus". With consensus, everyone must agree to a proposed action. Consensus works often. I've experienced this with environmental activism. However, I've also seen where one strong personality can sway consensus, sometimes with unfortunate results.

I'm not sure that something as huge as eliminating the vote should be predetermined and then applied in every circumstance.

I also like having a document like the US Constitution that at least attempts to protect the rights of minorities (Gay Rights for example), and is intended to override laws that discriminate. I don't know if TZM would include something like this, or an effective alternative.

I like the general TZM idea though.

Hey suncloud,

I’ve been studying just about everyone who thinks that they have a Solution to any of our Problems for over 24 years and I have concluded that if you do not understand the First Cause, then the best you can do is Damage Control. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people do not understand the First Cause and The Zeitgeist Movement is no exception. However, they do understand the Problem with Money, which is why they advocate a Resource Based Economy, but a Resource Based Economy is on our To Get List and Not on our To Do List - see below.

I’ve mentioned this many times before and here are a couple older posts where I mention SLAVERY and a Resource Based Economy being on our To Get List and Not on our To Do List.

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Re: quote from a person I met today
Posted by: John Rose
Date: August 02, 2012 08:26AM

Aristotle understood what’s going on when he said, “All paid employments absorb and degrade the mind.” It’s all a form of Slavery and it’s all because we have the Wrong Mentality and that’s because most of us are Dis-Connected or most of us have a very Weak Connection to everything around us and that’s because most of us are Eating Cooked Food. I’m sure that most people will not understand what this really means and will want to argue with me, but that’s because most people don’t have enough Pieces to the Puzzle.

I’ve been thinking about these things 24/7 for the last 22 years and if any of y’all want to challenge me, BRING IT ON!!! I’ve identified 208 of the most important Pieces of the Puzzle and have been able to Logically Connect all of them together in a 3 Box System with Pluses & Minuses.

For now, let’s take a look at what others have to say about Money. In Zeitgeist Addendum, their Solution is a Resource Based Economy and in the Thrive Documentary, their Solution is to simply get rid of the Corrupt Money. In a way, they are both Right, but they are also both Wrong.

Yes, we ultimately want a Resource Based Economy, but that’s on our To Get List and Not on our To Do List, which is a Common Mistake a lot of people make. And if we ever get around to doing what we’re supposed to do so we can Change our Mentality and Return to a Gift Mentality, we still can’t Change everything overnight, so we do have to do Damage Control and at least get rid of the Corrupt Money.

All of this reminds me of a book by Emerson and actually explains this whole idea of having a Strong Connection to everything around us. To explain this further, here is another old post of mine - [look for "abolitionist"]…

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Re: Who do you think is the healthiest looking raw fooder?
Author: John Rose (---.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net)
Date: 03-03-05 19:43

I like what it says in "A Course In Miracles" about sharing physical possessions and ideas..."If we share a physical possession, you do divide its ownership. If you share an idea, however, you do not lessen it. All of it is still yours although all of it has been given away. Further, if the one to whom you give it accepts it as his, he reinforces it in your mind and thus increases it. ...Thoughts increase by being given away. The more who believe in them the stronger they become."

I also agree with Aristotle when he said that, "All paid employments absorb and degrade the mind." Indeed, it is a shame that money is our god in this country and is used as a barometer for success. If we never ate cooked food, I am convinced that our values would not be so screwed up. This reminds me of an interesting story...I was at a friend's house about seven years ago and a book about Emerson jumped off the shelf at me, as do a lot of books. The very first words that I read on the very first page that I opened was, "...and food that fire had polluted." Of course, I got real excited because I knew what this meant, but I never thought of expressing it in this way before.

It turned out that the page I turned to was the beginning of a chapter called The Reformers. Basically, Emerson put the word out to the public for everyone who thought that they had an answer to solve our problems to come to his house and they would all discuss who had the best answer. Emerson made many references in this chapter to this guy named Alcott. Emerson never said who he was nor did he give his full name, but I recognized this name from my studies of Natural Hygiene. William A. Alcott, M.D. was one of the early founders of the Natural Hygiene movement.

Emerson mentioned that Alcott went to England to try to enlighten the Britons only to find the same problem that any raw foodist has trying to convince anyone to give up their favorite foods. According to Alcott, "...the spirit of England was hostile to human welfare, and her institutions were adverse to the largest liberty of the soul." In American, Alcott wrote, "is that second Eden to be planted, in which the divine seed is to bruise the head of evil and restore man to his rightful communion with God."

Emerson goes on to say that he tried this way of life and agreed of its benefits, "but the servants refused to leave the kitchen, and Mrs. Alcott declined to share in a second venture;..." And then there's my favorite about those who objected to a simple vegetarian diet, "The fat and ruddy eater who had just wiped his lips from feeding on a sirloin, whose blood was spouting in his veins and whose strength kindled that evil fire in his eye. It was not the voice of man one heard, but beef and brandy roaring for beef and brandy."

I've shared this story here before but there was another part of this chapter that I have not shared. There was also a group of people who called themselves "abolitionist" but they were not there to abolish slavery...they wanted to abolish money. Everyone argued and argued until everyone finally agreed that if we were to abolish money, we could solve most of our problems. They didn't go into any details but it's not hard to imagine what would happen if money no longer existed. We would stop competing with one another and we would finally learn how to cooperate with one another.

To illustrate how screwed up we are as a society...the more money I charge for my services, the harder my students work for me...I guess they want to get their money's worth. My goal in life is to become the wealthiest man in the world and then for money to become worthless. If I achieve this goal, everyone will know about raw food and money will no longer be our #1 value.

Peace and Love.....................John
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Here’s one more thing I came across lately that I hope some of y’all will enjoy…

Excerpted from “Apaches, A History and Culture Portrait” by James L. Haley”:

It was probably just as well, for the Mescaleros found little at Bosque Redondo to fan a desire to be educated in the pindah schools, anyway. During repartee with John Cremony on the subject, the ordinarily agreeable chief Cadette silenced him with what Cremony backhandedly conceded was an irrefutable argument:

“You say that because you learned from books, you can build all those big houses and talk with each other at any distance, and do many wonderful things. Now, let me tell you what we think. You begin when you are little to work hard, and work until you are men in order to begin fresh work. You say that you work hard in order to learn to work well. After you get to be men, then you say, the labor of life commences; then you build the houses, and ships, and towns and everything. Then, after you have got them all, you die and leave them behind. Now, we call that slavery. You are slaves from the time you begin to talk until you die; but we are as free as air. We never work, but the Mexicans and others work for us. Our wants are few and easily supplied. The river, the wood and plain yield all that we require, and we will not be slaves; nor will we send our children to your schools, where they only learn to become like yourselves.”

Peace and Love..........John

Re: quote from a person I met today
Posted by: Panchito
Date: August 02, 2012 09:21AM

Hey John, interesting post.

Many people are not aware that they are part of the masses. The masses started with the birth of the middle class. Before the industrial revolution people had a job depending more or less on their birth. But afterwards, people were born "blank" meaning that they had to "make" themselves. So people become someone by climbing in society. All they sought was an identity. Some people try to have a smart image. They go to schools and get phds. All they sought was recognition, to become someone. Same goes with businesses and corporations climbing the ladder and creating definitions of good-bad. They want to be someone because they were born being nobody. It is all mental and the created definitions are mental, only concepts that started from wanting to be something.
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Re: quote from a person I met today
Posted by: John Rose
Date: August 02, 2012 02:10PM

That’s very interesting Panchito, but before we were “born being nobody” we were already Born into Slavery or Born into Bondage or Born into a Belief System and a Way of Life that creates most of our problems, including an Exchange Mentality where we are so Foolish that we actually Compete for Resources on an Abundant Planet. However, your point is well taken because it does describe the Evolution of this Slavery, but the Evolution of Slavery is NOT as important as the Slavery itself!

So I agree, the 4th thing we mastered made things worse, but before the Industrial Revolution we already had 3 Mistakes under our Belt. In other words, we already had the Wrong Mentality and the 1st Mistake and the 5th Mistake creates the Wrong Mentality.

What’s really interesting about the Industrial Revolution is that we can use this Piece of the Puzzle, which is Piece 39 in my 6 Box System, as part of the Ultimate Solution. We can use Piece 39, which comes from Piece 9a, to Modify Piece 42 and now, we have something that is stronger than all of the armies in the world - an Idea whose time has come - Piece 41!

Thanks for adding an interesting perspective to this discussion.

Something else of significance to this discussion is Adam Smith’s classic “The Wealth of Nations” where he explains that there are 3 Main Groups - (1) those who Live by Rent - (2) those who Live by Wages - (3) those who Live by Profit. Smith points out that the interest for the first 2 Groups are strictly Connected with the interest of the Society, but the 3rd Group does Not have the same Connection with the general interest of the society as that of the other two because those who Live by Profit want to Narrow their Competition and Widen their Market.

I could go on and on about how those who Live by Profit Narrow their Competition and Widen their Market, but if you guys think about this for a while, you’ll understand why the Problems of Knowledge have to be addressed in addition to the Knowledge we’re missing or the Knowledge we need to solve most of our problems.

Peace and Love..........John

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]