Halloooo all :O)

My name's Kelsey and I come here for some information which I think you bright and lovely people may be able to offer me. I personally am interested in both personal and world health as well as a variety of social issues, and I think that these two things interlock in many ways. I've noticed a bit of a trend in the "health nut" world (from vegetarian to vegan to raw to...), and the wider "green" movement/s, regarding social class, and even moreso regarding the issue of race.

Now this is from the perspective of a white American female, age 20. I believe that worldwide the issues may be quite different, but it seems to me that in the USA much of the healthy living movements, in terms of food and overall lifestyle, are populated mainly by white (European-American) individuals. This is just my hypothesis based on personal observation as well as conversations I've had with a few friends.

I'm just wondering a couple things...

Does anybody know of a study about the demographics of raw fooders (or vegan people, or vegetarians, etc) in the USA?

Does anybody have personal experience/stories which could help me confirm or refute my hypothesis, and more fully understand this issue?

And, does anybody have their own hypothesis, if they agree with my original conclusion, as to WHY it is that a majority of raw foodists/ "healthy livers" in this country tend to be European-Americans?

Thanks so much for taking the time to read this, and hopefully reply!

Kelsey

I'd just like to add that I understand this country is populated in majority by European-American people (though that may not always be the case!) and I am referring to percentages representative of the overall population when I talk about the perceived "lack" of non-white people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2007 08:46PM by ambulancears.

There's no lack of "non-white" people in the raw food community, there's just as many blacks as there are whites looking after their health, everybody has their own way and avenue to express what they do.

Thanks for your input.

what is the point of this? why is race being brought into it?

To start debate I guess...who knows???

sociology buffs (or students) are always interested in demographics for research purposes...maybe this person is looking for a thesis idea or something

ambulancears Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> ... it seems to me that in the USA much of the healthy living
> movements, in terms of food and overall lifestyle,
> are populated mainly by white (European-American) individuals.

> Does anybody know of a study about the
> demographics of raw fooders (or vegan people, or
> vegetarians, etc) in the USA?
>
> Does anybody have personal experience/stories
> which could help me confirm or refute my
> hypothesis, and more fully understand this issue?
>
> And, does anybody have their own hypothesis, if
> they agree with my original conclusion, as to WHY
> it is that a majority of raw foodists/ "healthy
> livers" in this country tend to be
> European-Americans?

Maybe your research could be more effectively done with SAD eaters since you would have a larger group of subjects to work with.

Some pointers you may want to keep in mind:

Are the majority or minority of SAD eaters in the USA of white european descent or from another background? In either event, why?

Are there any health conditions that that can be directly linked to the SAD diet (positive or negative)? If so, is there any corelation percent-wise, based on race--as it is predominantly defined in this country-- to the proportion of people in the USA who are of white european background? If so, how could that be?

Wishing you vibrant health

Thanks to all for the information and pointers.

rawfrancois said: "what is the point of this? why is race being brought into it?"

I do not see myself as simply "bringing race into it," because in my opinion race and the racial history of the USA already affects virtually every aspect of life. Rather, I consider myself as trying to understand the impact of racial history and racism on these "movements." I'm trying to examine this intersection because I am personally very interested in both the topic of racism and racial politics in the USA and the topic of healthy living.

The_Fruitarian_One said: "To start debate I guess...who knows???"

My intention is not to start arguments, but I'm fine with debate... if we can all learn more from it, especially.

islandgirl said: "sociology buffs (or students) are always interested in demographics for research purposes...maybe this person is looking for a thesis idea or something"

I am a student, but not a sociology student. I'm sincerely interested in demographics, but also human stories, for the reasons I mentioned above about my interests.

Pistachio: My basic interest is actually about racial politics and racism within more "alternative" movements. I feel like I already have a pretty good handle on understanding the "mainstream" culture of the USA in terms of racial demographics, and I am guessing that I'm probably in agreement with the majority of posters here about the negative affects of a "mainstream" diet, as well. Those are not issues I feel the need to research further.

Also... after looking around the site further, I realized that I may have posted this in the wrong forum. If it needs to be moved, I'm sorry!

Kelsey

it would be better if all humans were blind

or would we then segregate ourselves by voice?

hmmmmm

Perhaps it would be better. But the fact is that we (as a whole) are not, and have never been, and that reality has far-reaching consequences. In my opinion, talking about seeing the world through "colorblind" eyes tends to be a method for those who have never been forced to realize the impact of race and racism (read: many white people [in America]) to continue, as the term implies, being "blind" to the reality which many people who DO experience racism see and feel and understand every single day.

If we were blind how would we see the beauty in our differences?

blah blah blah

you see this often brought up by folks who are looking for excuses to not do healthy things

its too expensive..better to stick with the lower classes and eat rice crispies

fact is it isn't true.

i've lived in all different kinds of neighborhoods...most anyone who is part of an 'ethnic' community eats larger portions of fresh fruits and vegies then any white people I know. This may indeed be changing with the shift in consciousness to more organic foods but usually only in product form. and the 2nd, 3rd generation 'ethnics' eating more american gunk. Some homeless folks will refuse fruit, yet hassel you for money for mcDonalds...Is this a social indoctrinating issue? probably, but I wouldn't say its race specific.

Many asian counties are practically lands of paradise in terms of fruit..yet people still chow down on fried pork. In my opinion tieng raw food...to some racial prison state complex or whatever just doesn't fly.

minorities and the poor are probably disenfranchized by the health care system...big loss.
if it is true that the majority of raw folks are white, it could be that they are more ill from inheriting genetic crap and seeking alternatives. most folks see themself as healthy until their dead or at least debilitated. This could be oddly a racist statement, but many non-whites just seem far happier (to me) with smaller goals...which goes a long way in health.

Also some ethnic cultures are incredibly tied to their 'cultural signifigance' of foods (BIG unfortunate roadblock!). I get this from white folks as well though. 'what about giving or preparing a meal for someone". "Umm ok. here, want some of my cantaloupe?" "here I will cut it for you."



in all seriousness though...the idea of obtainable health is an issue that is larger then just distributing information (which is the only way I see one could rationally tie it to race, as if some folks had access and others did not). There has to be motivation. Everyone now with the internet has no excuse not to find this information no matter what social class they come from...other then the fact that they arn't motivated or aware. libraries are still free, information is still free. Time would be better spent bringing awareness to these communities/disenfranchized folks your concerned about.

ambulancears Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps it would be better. But the fact is that
> we (as a whole) are not, and have never been, and
> that reality has far-reaching consequences. In my
> opinion, talking about seeing the world through
> "colorblind" eyes tends to be a method for those
> who have never been forced to realize the impact
> of race and racism (read: many white people ) to
> continue, as the term implies, being "blind" to
> the reality which many people who DO experience
> racism see and feel and understand every single
> day.

do you mean people like ward connerly?

anaken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Also some ethnic cultures are incredibly tied to
> their 'cultural signifigance' of foods (BIG
> unfortunate roadblock!). I get this from white
> folks as well though. 'what about giving or
> preparing a meal for someone". "Umm ok. here, want
> some of my cantaloupe?" "here I will cut it for
> you."

HAHAHAHAHA.

Kelsey,
First of all, what are you trying to say?? It seems to me that you are trying to rephrase the question: Why are most health-conscious people white? with all that bla bla and statistics you mentioned. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds very ignorant to me.
And what is a European -American please?
I mysself am European and I have never heard of that term before.
Please explain yourself!

Also, the term European-American meaning "white" is an insult! Not all Europeans are white sweetheart. And also the general population in this country isn't white either.
You need to get you're facts straight first before you talk about a sensitive subject like this.

Hi, plastic.

First, I'd like to address the issue of a certain hostility which I feel from your posts. I am open to your opinions and insight, and I sincerely thank you. However, I do not understand why it is necessary to "speak down" (for example, calling me "sweetheart," which I perceive to be condescending) to me in order to offer those opinions and insights. Again, thank you for taking the time to respond!

I apologize for my mis-use of the term European-American. I do believe that the majority of people who live in the USA who are considered "white" are originally descended from European countries, although I agree that it is very important to understand the subtleties of racial identification all over the world. Thank you for pointing that out.

You asked: "First off, what are you trying to say??"

I'm really sorry if my point has seemed convoluted. I am wondering: 1) if anybody has any specific information about racial demographics in the raw food community, and 2) If I am right that most people in this community identify as white, does anybody have a hypothesis as to why?

I do personally have a hypothesis as to why this is so (and I do believe that it is so). I do not consider it an issue of blaming individuals or "groups" for not "taking care of themselves," or making generalizations about the food preferences of any racially-identified group. I feel that it is related to a wider issue of racism within "green" movements, and an overall lack of effort to include socially disenfranchised people. I believe that Anaken understood my point, as she (or he!) replied with a viewpoint differing from mine, and focusing on a perceived lack of motivation and awareness and less of a focus on tying the issues to race.

Anaken: thank you for your insight and stories of personal experience as well!! (Totally off-topic: I love your username.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2007 06:09AM by ambulancears.

I don't see anything wrong with recognising race/cultural differences as a means to help bring health to other people's lives, by recogising where past generations start 'patterns' of unhealthy eating.

For instance, an old friend of mine was a Hindhu vegetarian. She lived on a lot of milk and clarified butter, and had horrendous periods- I remember one that lasted 3 weeks. Could it have been her massive intake of dairy that contributed to this? She also used to cough up a lot of phlegm (sorry for the details!). Clarified butter is used a lot in Indian cooking, as is a lot of vegetable oil for certain dishes.

In some parts of England (usually outside London, to the north), many children are bought up being told that white bread, butter, milk and eggs are needed for best health. On Yahoo news, they reported that due to salt intake, Scottish folk are more at risk from heart disease etc. Maybe the Scottish need more raw food support! ... or is that prejudice- recognising the Scottish need help?

I don't see the problem in tracking down health according to race/location etc. I know veganism/fruitarianism is getting more coverage, but we can't expect a community to suddenly go raw without the necessary support. Without the internet, I'd probably still be thinking that an incinerated veg casserole was great for my health.

Take areas which are concentrated in minority/religious groups, lets say, a muslim community or a catholic community. Are we all supposed to ignore the fact that vegetarianism (let alone veganism, fruitarianism) isn't overly popular amongst either people? How do we help get the word out if we become so politically correct, we can't recognise that people ARE different. It's not labelling someone as bad, it's working out a way to fix misunderstandings that have been locked in over the generations, so that EVERYONE can benefit.

pakd4fun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If we were blind how would we see the beauty in
> our differences?

Couldn't put it better myself

there is no reason to bring race into this for any reason.

if someone perceives a problem and they want to do something about it, they could address those PEOPLE who they feel need help.


>I'm really sorry if my point has seemed convoluted. I am wondering: 1) if anybody has any specific information about racial demographics in the raw food community, and 2) If I am right that most people in this community identify as white, does anybody have a hypothesis as to why?

it does not matter.

>I feel that it is related to a wider issue of racism within "green" movements, and an overall lack of effort to include socially disenfranchised people.

people are free to "include" themselves wherever they wish.
if they are wrongfully excluded there are consequences to that.
blaming groups for not satisfying your demographic requirements is not productive.

>I don't see anything wrong with recognising race/cultural differences as a means to help bring health to other people's lives, by recogising where past generations start 'patterns' of unhealthy eating.

it is not necessary to recognize race differences as a means to bring health to other people's lives.

>For instance, an old friend of mine was a Hindhu vegetarian. She lived on a lot of milk and clarified butter, and had horrendous periods- I remember one that lasted 3 weeks. Could it have been her massive intake of dairy that contributed to this? She also used to cough up a lot of phlegm (sorry for the details!). Clarified butter is used a lot in Indian cooking, as is a lot of vegetable oil for certain dishes.

if you wanted to help your friend, you could have done so without any labels.

>In some parts of England (usually outside London, to the north), many children are bought up being told that white bread, butter, milk and eggs are needed for best health. On Yahoo news, they reported that due to salt intake, Scottish folk are more at risk from heart disease etc. Maybe the Scottish need more raw food support! ... or is that prejudice- recognising the Scottish need help?

those folk are just folk.. what is added to the conversation by saying "scottish"?

>I don't see the problem in tracking down health according to race/location etc.

it's not necessary. disseminate the information far and wide.
let people make up their own minds.
pushing this on people isn't going to get anywhere.

>I know veganism/fruitarianism is getting more coverage, but we can't expect a community to suddenly go raw without the necessary support. Without the internet, I'd probably still be thinking that an incinerated veg casserole was great for my health.

were you targeted because of your race?
did someone suggest you go raw because of your race?

>How do we help get the word out if we become so politically correct, we can't recognise that people ARE different. It's not labelling someone as bad, it's working out a way to fix misunderstandings that have been locked in over the generations, so that EVERYONE can benefit.

you can do what you want to do without targeting by race.

I don't agree.

I think that race, cultural differences and genetics can be useful fields of inquiry regarding diet and other health issues in general. It is NOT racism to recognize that the American Indian is genetically and culturally predisposed to alcoholism, nor is it racist to recognize that the African-American is predisposed to high blood pressure. It is NOT mere profiling to recognize that alcoholism, heart disease, and diabetes runs in families and so on...

I'm a bit confused as to why this would seem insulting to anyone.

All of us are swimming in a particular stream made up of familial, cultural and racial characteristics. That doesn't mean that we can't transcend these, only that it may be helpful to recognize what specific rocks in your particular stream are blocking the flow.

khale

khale,
Yes, there are diseases that tend to run in particular human strains. Northern europeans are more likely to have celiacs disease. Its interesting that you bring up alcohol in relationship to native americans. Its not just genetics, but I think there is also a cultural difference in how one looks at mind alterning substances. Alcohol was just another way to achieve an altered state of mind for a vision. Thats not the whole picture, but I have heard that is one view of it.

khale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't agree.
> I think that race, cultural differences and
> genetics can be useful fields of inquiry regarding
> diet and other health issues in general.

we're getting off the original topic now.

>It is NOT
> racism to recognize that the American Indian is
> genetically and culturally predisposed to
> alcoholism

how is that helpful?
if someone is not predisposed to alcoholism, do we ignore them?
likewise, have we made any headway into solving this so called genetic problem with the american indian and alcoholism? are we manipulating their genes?

>, nor is it racist to recognize that the
> African-American is predisposed to high blood
> pressure.

i would question the truth of the above - things like that
will often lead to a misdirection of effort,
and/or mistaken assumptions.

> It is NOT mere profiling to recognize
> that alcoholism, heart disease, and diabetes runs
> in families and so on...

this is exactly the kind of thing that causes people to not take charge of their health. oh, well, it runs in my family, nothing i can do...

>
> I'm a bit confused as to why this would seem
> insulting to anyone.
>
> All of us are swimming in a particular stream made
> up of familial, cultural and racial
> characteristics. That doesn't mean that we can't
> transcend these, only that it may be helpful to
> recognize what specific rocks in your particular
> stream are blocking the flow.
>
> khale


i'm not getting into whether it's racism or insulting.
i'm saying it's not necessary as per the original topic here.

i'm not saying what you're saying has no validity: but we do see things differently. i see the genetic issue as extremely minimal.

Something positive to add about native americans. I think that we are taking more responsibility for our situation. I read an article about distance running becoming popular again in certain tribes. As an alternative to alcohol, with the benefit of helping to control diabetes as well. Another disease which is a problem for the native american populations.

my apologies for going too far off the original topic.

I am no scientist or statistician, still I think it observably true that minorities of all stripes tend to be less represented in the raw food community, with the exception of women, who are very well represented indeed, and including those who earn below the poverty line.

I don't see the harm in asking why this may be so. It is absolutely true that ANYONE, regardless of circumstance, can transcend limitations imposed by race, culture, genetics, economics and consensuality to be or do whatever they choose. I don't feel hemmed in by my families medical history, but I AM informed by it. Likewise by my culture, gender, race and so on...

And though Fruitarian One may be right in stating that blacks are just as concerned with health issues as are whites, it is observably true that they are not as well represented in the RAW FOOD community as are whites, or not, at any rate, in the USA.

khale

Khale-

blacks aren't as representative of raw in the states as whites? Am I missing something?
I always thought storm was one of the most dominant long-term raw advocates. It was his story that reached me first and introduced me living raw.
And as far as racial diversity goes, you ever notice that the mod of this forum isn't white either? I think there is a very diverse group of raw foodies around the world, and even here on this board!!

Anyway, from what I see, race is not that important... (or is it?). I don't think the genetics of the turks, irish or australians matter so much as the improvements in ALL, irregardless of genetics, when one eats the freshest, highest quality foods.


Am I wrong? Is there a certain race that doesn't thrive on raw foods?

xxpeisi

Khale, you wrote:

"I am no scientist or statistician, still I think it observably true that minorities of all stripes tend to be less represented in the raw food community, with the exception of women, who are very well represented indeed, and including those who earn below the poverty line. I don't see the harm in asking why this may be so. It is absolutely true that ANYONE, regardless of circumstance, can transcend limitations imposed by race, culture, genetics, economics and consensuality to be or do whatever they choose. I don't feel hemmed in by my families medical history, but I AM informed by it. Likewise by my culture, gender, race and so on..."

I agree with this statement, and I appreciate your input on the topic.

Also, I want to make it clear that I am focusing on race more as a social construction than as any "inherent" determining factor.

Anaken, you mentioned that with access to the internet and libraries, motivation and personal awareness are now the most important factors contributing to a healthy lifestyle. I would like to say that there are still many poverty-stricken American citizens who do not have access to either of those valuable resources. There are still many communities in which no library can be found, etc. I am not trying to "make excuses" to explain why non-white people are underrepresented in the raw community, but I think it's important to understand why. In my opinion, it has more to do with the historical disenfranchisement and in many cases (thought not all!) an absolute lack of educational opportunities offered to people of color.

Peisinoe: I think that, instead of focusing on one or two specific figures in the raw food community, I would rather focus on the overall, widespread demographics. In other words, while it is very true that there are obviously a certain number of non-white people within this community, I believe that overall racial minorities are underrepresented.

You asked: "Is there a certain race that doesn't thrive on raw food?"

I don't believe that is the truth in any way. My point is more that, for various reasons, non-white people in the USA are not as likely to become a part of the raw community... I believe that people of all races can certainly thrive on raw foods, without exception! As I said, I am focusing on race not as a "thing" which is inherently part of human beings, but as a social construction which has historically been employed in the racist society of the US to privilege and disadvantage different racial groups.

Kelsey

fresh, you wrote:

"it does not matter."

It does matter to me. I understand that your feelings differ from mine, and I hope that both you and I can understand the legitimacy of another's point of view, as members of a community which strives for not only personal health but world health and understanding as well.

You also wrote:

"people are free to "include" themselves wherever they wish.
if they are wrongfully excluded there are consequences to that.
blaming groups for not satisfying your demographic requirements is not productive."

As I mentioned briefly in my above post, I do not feel that it is as simple as underprivileged persons simply including themselves "wherever they wish," due to social constraints as well as perceived conflicts of interest. For example, I have spoken with a few friends who mention the viewpoint that perhaps a percentage of Black citizens feel less welcomed into "alternative" eating communities because of the perception that "animal rights" are placed above "human rights," which has been a historical struggle for Black people in this country.

Further, I am not attempting to blame anybody, individual or group. I'm sorry if it came across that way. I don't think that blaming is productive in any way. I am more interested in understanding the subtleties of these issues and trying to remedy the problems I perceive in any way that I am capable.

fresh, you said: "if someone perceives a problem and they want to do something about it, they could address those PEOPLE who they feel need help."

I feel that, if the racism of the mainstream American culture informs subcultures and movements such as the raw community (which I believe it does), then everybody in the community (including me, of course!) needs some kind of "help,"... people who practice racism, as well as people who are victims of racism. If there is a racial discrepancy within the raw movement, is it not important for those on all "sides" to work in understanding why this is so? I believe that, just as in mainstream culture, it is beneficial for not only minorities but for everybody. It makes us better people, I believe.