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Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 21, 2006 02:49AM


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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: April 21, 2006 05:22AM

what does it mean to be religious

no one can define it

you are talking about a chimera within a chimera

a mystery stacked upon mysteries

atheists, too are sequestered in the pearls of the unseen

whether they acknowledge it or not

what is a crime

what is a prisoner

who is the true jailor

certainly no one outside of myself

so that even if i were to be locked in a cell

i could be free

cuz i hold the key



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2006 05:30AM by la_veronique.

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: skylite ()
Date: April 21, 2006 08:12AM

Thanks NNarzzz,

A revealing statistic, and not very surprising considering that almost every war and act of terrorism in history is deeply rooted in profound religious convictions of some sort.

Crikey how religion irritates me... Just don't get me started.

S

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: YogaLee ()
Date: April 21, 2006 08:49AM

I think there needs to be a clear defining line regarding when a person who is religious steps over that line to zealotry.

Huge chasm between a zealot/fanatic and a spiritual or deeply religious person.

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: swimmer ()
Date: April 21, 2006 09:09AM

hmmmmm.....can we infer that atheist criminals run faster than criminals of faith?

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: ThomasLantern ()
Date: April 22, 2006 12:20AM

I will also like to add that mentioning God does necessarily imply religion of any kind.

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: teloking57 ()
Date: April 23, 2006 08:30PM

hmmmmm,

Were these inmates religious when they entered prison, or did they "Find God"
while incarcerated?

Interesting thought, don't you think?

But I do like swimmer's thought that the atheist just don't get caught. ahhahahhahahahahhahahahahaha

Wheatgrass, it does a body good!!!

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: April 24, 2006 06:14AM

I desire to express that NOT believing in anything unless it can be physically "proven" is in and of itself, just as fierce of a religion as it gets, incredibly so. And the zealotry in that department can run CONSIDERABLY high.


The irony is that atheists have never been able to PROVE the non existence of God so why do they hack at those that believe in something larger than themselves and denigrate them for not having "proof"? Where is THEIR PROOF that God does NOT exist?

Is their "physical" PROOF that a person loves another person? If that cannot be tangibly, physically proven, does that mean that the other person is NOT in love? If you can't read it on a spectrophotometer, take samples of it and culture it on a petri dish and have it proliferate, does it mean it does not exist? If you can't take a photograph of it, read its temperature, and analyze its genetic structure, does that necessitate that this unseen , invisible thing be thrown out or laughed at ? Maybe all married people ought to get divorced since there really is no PROOF that the love between them exists after all. And yet the most IMPORTANT things, really, can NOT be tangibly proven.


Atheism is just as much of an organized, institutionalized and sanctioned religion as is all other religions.

There IS such a thing as "shoving down atheism down people's throats" just as atheists believe that the myriads of other "religions" are out to nab and save them.

There ARE a lot of beliefs out there. And not ALL of them try to convert you. I've had more atheists try and proselytize me into believing that nothing exists unless you can touch, feel, smell and hear it than I care to count.

The snide and chortling disbelief in things that you cannot touch or see is ( in my opinion) quite arrogant.

In that case, perhaps all your feelings and emotions don't exist. You certainly cannot PROVE them, can you? If you try to convince a judge in court that you LOVE someone, that could be ruled out on account that you have no PROOF. Is the fact that you bought your spouse flowers really PROOF that you love them? Is the fact that you were considerate of their feelings and a "good listener" provable in court? Wouldn't you become irritated, frustrated and perhaps even a wee bit enraged if you had to PROVE something that you knew deep inside was true even if you couldn't PROVE it like the fact that you love another person?

I don't know who "God" is and I don't think I will ever know entirely but if I hear another atheist self righteously and RELIGIOUSLY try and convert me into believing that nothing that is invisible exists, I WILL throw them out on the sidewalk for trying to proselytize me for the UMPTEENTH time.

I will DEMAND that they give me PROOF before I listen to their ranting.

maybe i wouldn't mind if atheists exist if they would STOP trying to convert me



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2006 06:16AM by la_veronique.

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 24, 2006 03:23PM

"The irony is that atheists have never been able to PROVE the non existence of God so why do they hack at those that believe in something larger than themselves and denigrate them for not having "proof"? Where is THEIR PROOF that God does NOT exist? "

The burden of proof is on those making the claim. If I claimed invisible purple elephants orbited your head day and night it would be my responsibility to proof my claim. Pretty basic debating knowledge right there.

"Atheism is just as much of an organized, institutionalized and sanctioned religion as is all other religions."]
False of course. Atheism is mostly disorganized and personal. And it certainly isn't "sanctioned", how many atheist organizations you know get tax breaks?

"The snide and chortling disbelief in things that you cannot touch or see is ( in my opinion) quite arrogant."
What exactally is arrogant about it?? I find it rather prudent and practical to not accept doctrine without consideration. Am I arrogent to be skeptical of informercials and used-car salesman too? Would I be less arrogent if I accept the Koran as my gospel and made it my mission to kill Allah's enemies (or Yahwhe's, whoever you like).

"I will DEMAND that they give me PROOF before I listen to their ranting.

maybe i wouldn't mind if atheists exist if they would STOP trying to convert me"

Having a rough day there Veronique? I don't see anyone HERE trying to convert you. I never even claimed to be athetist as a matter of fact. Simply displaying some interesting statistics for your edifycation. If you feel threatened by that... well, maybe you should ask God to help you handle that.

Anyway, an atheist couldn't "convert" you, you'd have to convert yourself.

Cheers,
Narz

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: April 24, 2006 05:02PM

<<The burden of proof is on those making the claim. If I claimed invisible purple elephants orbited your head day and night it would be my responsibility to proof my claim. Pretty basic debating knowledge right there.>>

atheists make a claim that if something is not tangible
it does not exist
in my book, that actually constitutes a claim

<<Atheism is mostly disorganized and personal. And it certainly isn't "sanctioned>>

It actually is sanctioned in a myriad of institutions and places but its not p.c. to make that admission so it is done implicitly through remarks that blatantly denigrate the beauty and profundity of people's beliefs ( whatever they may be).

<<I find it rather prudent and practical to not accept doctrine without consideration.>>

Name anything that deals with spirituality that you actually CAN prove. Can you prove feelings or emotions? People seem to get involved in relationships that affect and color every aspect of their lives based on a chimera called "love". Why is that not scoffed at as being "imprudent"? Where is the proof? If someone claims to love another person and this claim will tremendously affect EVERY portion of their life and the life of their family members, and it is sanctioned by society, and the IRS itself, why is there no rallying around for "proof"? In that same aspect, there are actually people who have a relationship based on love that other people cannot SEE but it is real to them. To express disdain for their belief simply because they cannot "prove" it is tantamount to denying the existence of love. A lot of religions are based on love which is why I use love as "the" example.



<<Having a rough day there Veronique? I don't see anyone HERE trying to convert you. I never even claimed to be athetist as a matter of fact. Simply displaying some interesting statistics for your edifycation. If you feel threatened by that... well, maybe you should ask God to help you handle that>>

I don't have to have a rough day to stand up to what I believe. My point was simple :

1)Atheism is a religion that is no different than other religions because it is based on a belief.
2) The non existence of a spiritual entity cannot be PROVEN.
3) There is no difference when a "religious" person is expressing their "beliefs" and when an atheist is expressing his/her belief. Both can be construed as forms of proselytization.

As far as anyone HERE trying to convert me, I wasn't referring to anyone on this board. I have, however witnessed a number of people who have expressed the most
bigoted views ( in a religious sense) towards those who express a belief in ANYTHING if it cannot be "physically proven."

I don't feel "threatened" by statistics. Statistics, like any other tool, is simply another form of malleable political clay that can be bent and squished to make anything look "real". Statistics has become the new form of "proof" and its a laughable one, at best. How did they "prove" that the inmates in those prisons were of the Bahai, Buddhist , Muslim or Protestant faith? Did they simply give them a number two pencil and have them fill out an empty circle? Shouldn't they have actually PROVED that the person was of that faith by rigorously scrutinizing their lives to see if their way of living actually MATCHED the tenets of their belief system? Isn't that what SCIENCE is all about? They just simply took their word for it. They actually took a leap of faith and BELIEVED what they were being told and tabulated it into a table as FACT. Pretty unscientific, if you ask me.

I actually found it humorous. My rant had nothing to do, in fact, with your "information". It was actually a reaction to what I have witnessed and continue to witness. If atheists claim that it is the "religious" people who create violence and cite that as the reason why they are against religions, in fairness, they ought to also see the polar argument which is that atheists put to death and kill people for having spiritual views as well. The kid in Colombine is a perfect example. When he asked that girl ( the one whose mother wrote a book about her daughter) who was in the cafeteria if she believed in God and she said "yes", he shot and murdered her on the spot. Is that NOT an example of an atheist perpetuating his views?

<<Anyway, an atheist couldn't "convert" you, you'd have to convert yourself.>>

I would say the same for any religion. No one can convert another person into believing anything. Like they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

veronique

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 24, 2006 08:14PM

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> atheists make a claim that if something is not
> tangible
> it does not exist
> in my book, that actually constitutes a claim

Atheists only claim is "prove it". Why should people believe in something that cannot be proven. Well, loneliness I suppose and because it makes them feel better. That's not enough for some people. Get over it. winking smiley

> It actually is sanctioned in a myriad of
> institutions and places but its not p.c. to make
> that admission so it is done implicitly through
> remarks that blatantly denigrate the beauty and
> profundity of people's beliefs ( whatever they may
> be).

Name one out of your myriad. Not PC, eh? They still mention God on our money and in our courthouses. I suppose all beliefs are ok except atheism, eh? Can you truly not see your double standard?

> Name anything that deals with spirituality that
> you actually CAN prove. Can you prove feelings or
> emotions? People seem to get involved in
> relationships that affect and color every aspect
> of their lives based on a chimera called "love".
> Why is that not scoffed at as being "imprudent"?
> Where is the proof? If someone claims to love
> another person and this claim will tremendously
> affect EVERY portion of their life and the life of
> their family members, and it is sanctioned by
> society, and the IRS itself, why is there no
> rallying around for "proof"? In that same aspect,
> there are actually people who have a relationship
> based on love that other people cannot SEE but it
> is real to them. To express disdain for their
> belief simply because they cannot "prove" it is
> tantamount to denying the existence of love. A lot
> of religions are based on love which is why I use
> love as "the" example.

Feelings ARE proven by action. What is love if I don't do anything about it? If you love but don't act your love is weak. If I love someone I do things for them, I call them, I spend time with them, I would save their life if I had to. Is that not proof enough for you? Love is very real, God is not. If I was about to be killed someone I loved could save me, God could not. If you were starving, would you rather be given food or given God? Reminds me of this humourous article. Maybe it will illustrate the arrogence and out-of-touchness of the other side. : [www.theonion.com] (Yes, it's a joke but hopefully shows you the difference between the real and unreal, in our sheltered Western world it's easy to forget and blur the difference)

> I don't have to have a rough day to stand up to
> what I believe. My point was simple :

Stand up for what you believe on your own ground. Don't go trampling on other people's ground claiming yours is more sacred. That's what turns people off to religion in the first place (that and some folks would rather think for themselves than be handy a manuel for living, basterised over thousands of years),

> 1)Atheism is a religion that is no different than
> other religions because it is based on a belief.

It is very different from any other and it is not a religion. See any churches of atheism? It simply ignores the unprovable to focus on the process of living and enjoying life. Seems rather to the point, in my opinion.

> 2) The non existence of a spiritual entity cannot
> be PROVEN.

No argument there.

> 3) There is no difference when a "religious"
> person is expressing their "beliefs" and when an
> atheist is expressing his/her belief. Both can be
> construed as forms of proselytization.

So now no one can speak their mind without being labeled as a proselytizer???

> As far as anyone HERE trying to convert me, I
> wasn't referring to anyone on this board. I have,
> however witnessed a number of people who have
> expressed the most
> bigoted views ( in a religious sense) towards
> those who express a belief in ANYTHING if it
> cannot be "physically proven."

Define bigoted.

> I don't feel "threatened" by statistics.
> Statistics, like any other tool, is simply another
> form of malleable political clay that can be bent
> and squished to make anything look "real".
> Statistics has become the new form of "proof" and
> its a laughable one, at best. How did they "prove"
> that the inmates in those prisons were of the
> Bahai, Buddhist , Muslim or Protestant faith? Did
> they simply give them a number two pencil and have
> them fill out an empty circle? Shouldn't they have
> actually PROVED that the person was of that faith
> by rigorously scrutinizing their lives to see if
> their way of living actually MATCHED the tenets of
> their belief system? Isn't that what SCIENCE is
> all about? They just simply took their word for
> it. They actually took a leap of faith and
> BELIEVED what they were being told and tabulated
> it into a table as FACT. Pretty unscientific, if
> you ask me.
>

Trusting people's word may be unscientific but it's certainly more cost effective than lie detector tests. Do you dismiss any system that isn't perfect?

> I actually found it humorous.

Good, that was the idea. smiling smiley

> My rant had nothing
> to do, in fact, with your "information". It was
> actually a reaction to what I have witnessed and
> continue to witness. If atheists claim that it is
> the "religious" people who create violence and
> cite that as the reason why they are against
> religions, in fairness, they ought to also see the
> polar argument which is that atheists put to death
> and kill people for having spiritual views as
> well. The kid in Colombine is a perfect example.
>
> When he asked that girl ( the one whose mother
> wrote a book about her daughter) who was in the
> cafeteria if she believed in God and she said
> "yes", he shot and murdered her on the spot. Is
> that NOT an example of an atheist perpetuating his
> views?

No, it's not an example of an atheist perpetuating his views. It's an example of mass murder. Who's to say he wouldn't have killed her if she said "no"? Those boys probably had everyone's card in the school. Probably had something to say to the jocks, cheerleaders, the black kid(s) if there were any. Saying it's religiously motavated or racially motavated or anti-sports motavated misses the point. Sad for this girl that she'll be remembered solely for her belief in the local diety and not for who she was as a person and what she did during her time on Earth.

>
> I would say the same for any religion. No one can
> convert another person into believing anything.
> Like they say, you can lead a horse to water but
> you can't make it drink.
>
> veronique

No argument here. Have a good day V. No hard feelings. winking smiley



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2006 08:22PM by NNNNNarz.

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: ThomasLantern ()
Date: April 25, 2006 03:16AM

I tend to use the word religious in a pretty straightforward way. If someone is making a claim about God ( such as "God exists", or "God does not exist"winking smiley, that is not based on actual understanding, they are being religious.

I would also like to add that:

1) The existence of God, as far as everyone in this thread knows, has not been proven or disproven... but that is NOT the same thing as saying that such a thing can not be proven ever.

2) We are all trying to convert one another, in some sense, in this thread... depending on how you use the word "convert".

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 25, 2006 08:13PM

ThomasLantern Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> 2) We are all trying to convert one another, in
> some sense, in this thread... depending on how you
> use the word "convert".


I'm sold. smiling smiley

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: April 25, 2006 10:34PM

,,<< 2) We are all trying to convert one another, in
> some sense, in this thread... depending on how you
> use the word "convert".


I'm sold. smiling smiley>>

I'll buy it if the price is right tongue sticking out smiley

narz,

allright, that was a decent game of theological tennis

now, let's switch sides
i'll be the atheist
and you can be the raw vegan Bahai extremist donning orange tennis shorts

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 25, 2006 11:22PM

I've only known two Bahai's. Both on the internet. I only found out their religion after a half dozen private messeges with one of them. I could not imagine either of them being extremists.

I'm happy to switch to the other side though (for fun). I like trying to see the world thru other people's eyes.

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: April 26, 2006 06:36AM

clunk

thwack

swingggggg

thog

clump

donggg

yer winning narz!!! smiling smiley

get back to you after i change a coupla strings on this tennis racket

when I imagine Bahai's ( not sure if i met one though, except maybe at a booth)

i imagine them with blue framed sunglasses
a tall glass of pineapple coconut raspberry colada
and a smile that can lighten up 4/7ths of a football field
4/7ths sounds just about right

I also imagine them playing tennis
to the beat of Billy JOel and Sting music

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: ThomasLantern ()
Date: April 26, 2006 03:42PM

GG

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: April 26, 2006 05:30PM

thomas lantern

GG?

is that like a new designer brand?

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 26, 2006 09:17PM

Well, let me stick up for religious rights. I support your right to pray in school or anywhere you damn well please. smiling smiley


And if you are going to get into a tennis match with me, maybe it might be a good idea. heh heh

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: ThomasLantern ()
Date: April 27, 2006 06:19PM

GG means Good Game

I will be the referee, I only play tennis in french so I'm ineligible

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: May 01, 2006 08:43PM

I only play tennis blindfolded

thus

I am eligible

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: learningtofly ()
Date: May 02, 2006 07:33PM

NNNNNarz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> la_veronique Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > atheists make a claim that if something is not
> > tangible
> > it does not exist
> > in my book, that actually constitutes a claim
>
> Atheists only claim is "prove it". Why should
> people believe in something that cannot be proven.

Actually, atheists do not say "prove it." They say that God does not exist, period. This is what veronique is referring to as a religious belief unto itself.

It is agnostics that say "prove it." But veronique wasn't talking about agnostics.

15-Love

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: learningtofly ()
Date: May 02, 2006 08:13PM

Edited post:

NNNNNarz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> la_veronique Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > atheists make a claim that if something is not
> > tangible
> > it does not exist
> > in my book, that actually constitutes a claim
>
> Atheists only claim is "prove it". Why should
> people believe in something that cannot be proven.

Actually, atheists do not say "prove it." They say that God does not exist, period. This is what veronique is referring to as a religious belief unto itself.

It is agnostics that say "prove it."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2006 08:15PM by learningtofly.

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: May 03, 2006 01:31AM

Actually they both say prove it. But you're right, atheists do say definititively that there is no God (which is why I am not a hardcore atheist). Still, the theists are the ones that claim "God" is even real, so in a way ateists are just saying "Oh really? If you can't show me I don't believe it".

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: learningtofly ()
Date: May 03, 2006 01:40PM

NNNNNarz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually they both say prove it. But you're
> right, atheists do say definititively that there
> is no God (which is why I am not a hardcore
> atheist). Still, the theists are the ones that
> claim "God" is even real, so in a way ateists are
> just saying "Oh really? If you can't show me I
> don't believe it".

I guess it depends on how you define atheism and agnosticism.

Like veronique said, it's very difficult if not impossible to prove that an emotion such as love exists. And like an old friend of mine once told me, God is not an idol or something to be personified, but a FEELING. By that token, it would be as difficult to prove the existence of God as it would be to prove the existence of any emotion, since you can't PROVE a feeling -- you can only experience it.

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: May 03, 2006 01:48PM

Interesting. However if you ask what most people think of God as they won't say a feeling, they will say a diety. I have no problem with God as feeling but people who believe in God as a human-like creature (the way the Greeks believed in Zues) make me chuckle at best or cringe at worst (when they try to tell me this Fellow will hurt me if I don't give him my acceptance).

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: May 06, 2006 03:44PM

thou art God

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: May 06, 2006 04:28PM

I love what one friend said to me:

"The difference between Christians and atheists is that Christians will do the right thing in order to make sure they go to heaven -- and atheists will do the right thing because it seems like the right thing to do."

My godparents are atheist and the sweetest elderly couple I have ever known. My son is an atheist and he is just about my favorite person ever.

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: ThomasLantern ()
Date: May 06, 2006 07:46PM

LaV - no grokking allowed (j/k)

I have very rarely met anyone who actually knew right from wrong.

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Re: Atheists far less likely than the religious to become criminals
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: May 06, 2006 07:58PM

I know right from wrong. If left is wrong.

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