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Re: Evolution and Intelligent design discussion
Posted by: cosbynian ()
Date: January 12, 2008 01:49AM

Here is just a few passages:

Heb 1:1-2
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

KJV

Note that "worlds" is plural, meaning more than just our own. If there is no other life out there, it would not be reasonable to place them in the same category as ours.

Job 1:6-7

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

KJV

In this verse, is described some type of celestial counsel involving the sons of God. Notice that Satan is coming from the earth meaning that he is the one in the Old Testament who had gotten control over the earth (God has revealed the details on how he stole this position from Adam and Eve). It is my personal belief that these others described as the "sons of God' are comparable to delegates or ambassadors from the other worlds. Whether or not they reproduce like us is not the central issue. I don't limit all life as having to reproduce like humans reproduce.

Matt 18:12-13

12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

KJV

If one views this parable in the broader spectrum, which certainly makes sense, the "one lost sheep" applies to this earth. If, therefore, the earth is that "one lost sheep," Christ here speaks of the other ninety and nine which did not go astray. This, I believe, is another reference to UNFALLEN worlds. The earth is the one dark blot in the universe and God has purposely quarantined us off, so to speak, to keep this thing called sin from contaminating other life. This is why I believe man will never, in his fallen state, meet or scientifically observe other lifeforms.

Christ is represented by the man in the parable, and he left the other worlds in the heavens to come down and save this planet.

Now concerning you statement:
Quote

Aren't those beings spiritual, not physical? they also do not reproduce.

According to the Bible, a spiritual being does not necessarily mean it is immaterial. Upon His resurrection, Christ was given a spiritual body of which all believers are promised to receive as well.

1 Cor 15:42-44

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

KJV

The new body is clearly said to be a "spiritual body." Now notice what it says about Christ's resurrection.

Luke 24:36-39

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit [i.e. ghost].
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

KJV

Christ's new body is a spiritual body as is promised believers in the resurrection, however it is also material flesh and bone, but of a different nature than we are used to because Christ was able to walk through the walls right into the upper room of the apostles.

To any scientific mind, this should not be hard to fathom because there are many physical realities of which man cannot see - gamma rays, x-rays, radio waves, and a good part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Again, these are really there, but cannot be seen with these physical eyes.

So also is the spiritual realm, they operate in a different plain of existence of which man is mostly blinded to in our fallen, carnal state. Again, these are just a few references. There are others. Not everyone, and probably most Christians, are unaware of these and / or do not believe in extraterestial life [extraterrestrial simply means apart or other than the earth].

I agree with musicbebe in her encouragement for you to go to the source, and not just read what other people say about the Bible. And don't just go to the source, pray to God that if He is real, ask Him to reveal Himself to you in a sincere desire to know if He is there. If you honestly do this and give it time, and do not experience anything, then I cannot fault you for disbelief.

"Taste and see that the Lord is good" (Ps 34)
i.e. experience His reality for yourself.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent design discussion
Posted by: la_veronique ()
Date: January 12, 2008 04:15AM

Mislu asks:

<< Cosbynian,
You said the following:"the Bible very plainly teaches that there is other life, with the most notable being angels". Aren't those beings spiritual, not physical? they also do not reproduce.>>

How do you know that angels are just insubstantial gossamer chimeric beings. They could be as substantial (or insubstantial... since people really are insubstantial made substantial by forces) as you or I.

Also, how do you know that they don't reproduce? There is a passage in the bible that i read about where there are these beings ( notably males) and they are
like uber humans...( kind of like between an angel and a human) and they seek human females to mate with. I don't remember the exact passage. Maybe cosbynian does. but at any rate, if this were true, the implication is that their children were hybrid angels and humans.

know the saying to be careful of how you treat someone because they could be an angel walking amongst us? i am thinking that is maybe how that saying came about

in some circuitous way

forgot that passage
was a while ago since i read and pondered about certain scriptures

there really is a lot in it that is hidden

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent design discussion
Posted by: jono ()
Date: January 12, 2008 05:01AM

Sometimes I think of myself as just an organized mass or single-celled organisms.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent design discussion
Posted by: cosbynian ()
Date: January 12, 2008 03:37PM

La V., the passage that you are citing is in Genesis 6

Gen 6:1-4
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
KJV

Personally, from the research I have done, I do not interpret this to mean angelic beings sleeping with humans. There are many Christians who do interpret this passage that way; however, it is my belief that the sons of God represent the righteous lineage of Adam that came through Seth after Cain killed Able. The daughters of men represent Cain's lineage which were in outright rebellion to God's way of life. Scripture teaches that believers are not to yoke themselves nor intermarry with unbelievers--thus, this is what I believe the passage is relating. Seth's lineage (i.e. the sons of God) intermarrying with Cain's lineage (i.e. the daughter's of men).

However, I am always open for correction or further enlightenment on this and all areas because many are hidden and obscure on the surface, as you point out La V.

The other passage you cite is Hebrews:

Heb 13:2
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
KJV

When one studies the scriptures, the term "angel" is not isolated to only celestial beings that are not human. The word "angel" is angelos in the Greek which simply means a messenger and is used many times in scriptures of humans who bring messages from God. Angelos forms the compound of evangelion which is Greek for the "gospel" or "good news" and the English ev-ANGEL-ist, which is one who brings glad tidings or a good message.

That good message or gospel that began to resound two thousand years ago, and is still echoing today, is that there is life beyond the grave, eternal life that is incorruptible, undefiled and that does not fade away; and that life is found in our Creator and His Son Jesus Christ, who came to show man how to be reconciled with our Maker and enter into that life right now.

John 10:10
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Jesus Christ

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent design discussion
Posted by: Mislu ()
Date: January 15, 2008 07:06AM

Cosybnian,
Thats interesting, but a little bit of a stretch. Anything more specific other than other worlds are made? (that suggests that the bible teaches E.T.s exist) The 99 sheep is interesting, but that can totally be read in many ways which have nothing to do with life outside of earth.

An interesting statement:
"This, I believe, is another reference to UNFALLEN worlds. The earth is the one dark blot in the universe and God has purposely quarantined us off, so to speak, to keep this thing called sin from contaminating other life. This is why I believe man will never, in his fallen state, meet or scientifically observe other lifeforms."

This fallen state, isn't that something which the Christian believes they are liberated from? In theory couldn't a faithful christian make these observations?(and tell the rest of the world?) Its kind of funny, but I visualized a big sign outside of our solar system that says "keep out".

I'm not so sure that other worlds are not fallen. At a certain point, I believe all planets will partake of the 'tree of knowlege of good and evil' that is develop rational thought. In actual fact however, I am not so sure that there is absolute good or absolute evil.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent design discussion
Posted by: cosbynian ()
Date: January 16, 2008 12:22AM

Quote

I am not so sure that there is absolute good or absolute evil.

Mislu, there is no possible way to attack the idea of absolute good or absolute truth without negating and defeating such a proposition.

Consider for instance, your statement. To say that there is no absolute good or absolute truth, is to state an ABSOLUTE. Thus, by stating an absolute, a statement such as this ends up negating itself; because if the statement is an absolute, it at least proves there is one aboslute and thus proves itself wrong.
[i.e. picutre Wylie Coyote standing on a tree limb and sawing off the very branch that he is standing on and you will get an accurate picture of such statements as these]

"Good" and "Truth" link up, and Truth is defined by Webster's dictionary as "reality." Attack this and try to deny this, absolute truth and absolute reality, and you will find a word given in the dictionary and psychology to describe this condition: DELUSION. This is the state of fallen man; we have rejected Absolute Truth and Absolute Reality, therefore we have been given over to a strong delusion. And if we continue to fight against truth by ommission or commission, the ultimate end is the opposite of truth, order, law, reality, and existence which is: NON-EXISTENCE.

2 Thess 2:10-11
because they received not the love of the truth ... God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
KJV

Note: God does not directly and intentionally delude a person, but rather gives a person over to their own desires and choice, and takes responsibility for the result because He is sovereign over all.

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Re: Evolution and Intelligent design discussion
Posted by: Jose ()
Date: January 22, 2008 06:30PM

More evidence for evolution [www.time.com]

People who doubt the truth of Darwinian evolution love to claim that there are no transitional fossils—no remains of ancient creatures that have the characteristics of two different kinds of organism, mixed together. If evolution were true, you'd expect to see them.

Actually, you do: transitional forms like Archaeopteryx, a lizard-like bird, have been known for many decades, and more pop up all the time. But casts from a newly discovered fossil, slated to go on display at the London Science Museum tomorrow are, by all accounts, the most impressive example to date of a transitional form. They come from a remarkable creature, mostly fish-like but with some clear adaptations that let it operate on land. It fits perfectly with the conventional tale told by evolutionists the epochal moment when animals first began to emerge from their ancestral ocean.
........................................
In short, fishapod adds one more brick, and an especially important one, to the edifice of Darwinian evolution—and at the same time puts the so-called theory of intelligent design into even greater question than it already faces. That would be true if only because any designer who deliberately made such a queer fish would have been more of a practical joker than anything else. But it also demonstrates that while evolution has plenty of missing bits of evidence, they keep showing up all the time to strengthen it. Evolution is, as ID supporters love to say, "just" a theory. It also happens to be one of the most successful scientific theories in history, whose predictions of what should be found in the fossil record have been proven out for the zillionth time.


also, this paper is quite important [www.sciencedaily.com]

Evolution Is Deterministic, Not Random, Biologists Conclude From Multi-species Study

ScienceDaily (Nov. 19, 2007) — A multi-national team of biologists has concluded that developmental evolution is deterministic and orderly, rather than random, based on a study of different species of roundworms.


Cheers,
J


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