Great speech and Q&A from Richard Dawkins on morality, atheism, evolution and faith

[www.youtube.com] Part 1

[www.youtube.com] Part 2 (I definitely recommend this Q&A since it brings up many FAQs which Dawkins deals with quite well)

Cheers,
J

Thanks Jose. Will add to my "to watch" list.

The SIN Delusion

2Thessalonians 2:9-11

9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all
power and signs and wonders of falsehood,10and with all deceit of unrighteousness
in those perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, in order for them to be saved.11 And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood,12in order that all should be judged who did not believe the truth, but have delighted in the unrighteousness. 13But we ought to give thanks to Elohim

Psalm 14:1
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no YAHWEH.”

elnatural

Romans 2:13-15 (New International Version)

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Watch the video and read the book elnatural, there really is nothing to fear.

This letter from Thomas Jefferson to his nephew, Peter Carr, from Paris, August 10th, 1787, contains some good advice on how to educate oneself on the topic of religion.

Quote

Dear Peter, — I have received your two letters of December 30 and April 18, and am very happy to find by them, as well as by letters from Mr. Wythe, that you have been so fortunate as to attract his notice & good will; I am sure you will find this to have been one of the most fortunate events of your life, as I have ever been sensible it was of mine. I enclose you a sketch of the sciences to which I would wish you to apply, in such order as Mr. Wythe shall advise; I mention, also, the books in them worth your reading, which submit to his correction. Many of these are among your father's books, which you should have brought to you. As I do not recollect those of them not in his library, you must write to me for them, making out a catalogue of such as you think you shall have occasion for, in 18 months from the date of your letter, & consulting Mr. Wythe on the subject. To this sketch, I will add a few particular observations.

...............................................................................

4. Religion. Your reason is now mature enough to examine this object. In the first place, divest yourself of all bias in favor of novelty & singularity of opinion. Indulge them in any other subject rather than that of religion. It is too important, and the consequences of error may be too serious. On the other hand, shake off all the fears & servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. You will naturally examine first, the religion of your own country. Read the Bible, then as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The facts which are within the ordinary course of nature, you will believe on the authority of the writer, as you do those of the same kind in Livy & Tacitus. The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor, in one scale, and their not being against the laws of nature, does not weigh against them. But those facts in the Bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces. Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from God. Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong, as that its falsehood would be more improbable than a change in the laws of nature, in the case he relates. For example, in the book of Joshua, we are told, the sun stood still several hours. Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus, we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of statues, beasts, etc. But it is said, that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it. On the other hand, you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature that a body revolving on its axis, as the earth does, should have stopped, should not, by that sudden stoppage, have prostrated animals, trees, buildings, and should after a certain time gave resumed its revolution, & that without a second general prostration. Is this arrest of the earth's motion, or the evidence which affirms it, most within the law of probabilities? You will next read the New Testament. It is the history of a personage called Jesus. Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions: 1, of those who say he was begotten by God, born of a virgin, suspended & reversed the laws of nature at will, & ascended bodily into heaven; and 2, of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions to divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition, by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law, which punished the first commission of that offence by whipping, & the second by exile, or death in fureâ. See this law in the Digest Lib. 48. tit. 19. §. 28. 3. & Lipsius Lib 2. de cruce. cap. 2. These questions are examined in the books I have mentioned under the head of religion, & several others. They will assist you in your inquiries, but keep your reason firmly on the watch in reading them all.

Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you. If you find reason to believe there is a God, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, & that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement; if that there be a future state, the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it; if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love. In fine, I repeat, you must lay aside all prejudice on both sides, and neither believe nor reject anything, because any other persons, or description of persons, have rejected or believed it. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable, not for the rightness, but uprightness of the decision. I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists. Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration, as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics. Most of these are lost. There are some, however, still extant, collected by Fabricius, which I will endeavor to get & send you.

The full letter here [www.freethoughtpedia.com]

Cheers,
J

The SIN Delusion

ephesians 4:18
18having been darkened in their under-standing, having been estranged from the
life of Elohim, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart,19who, having become callous, have given themselves up to indecency, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Hebrews 3:8
expectation firm to the end.7Therefore, as the Set-apart Spirit says,“Today, if you hear His voice,8do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness,9where your fathers tried Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years. 10“Therefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.’ 11 “As I swore in My wrath, ‘If they shall enter into My rest 12Look out, brothers, lest there be in any of you a wicked heart of unbelief in falling away from the living Elohim,13but encourage one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened by the deceivableness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of
Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end,15 while it is said, “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” 16For who, having heard, rebelled? Was it not all who came out of Mitsrayim, led by Mosheh? 17And with whom was He grieved forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? i

Hebrews 10:31
31It is fearsome to fall into the hands of the living Elohim.

mathew 10:28
28“And do not fear those who mock the existance of YAWHEY and can only kill the
body but are unable to kill the being. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both being and body in eternal Hell.

elnatural

Quote

Posted by: elnatural_1 (IP Logged)
Date: March 18, 2008 11:38PM


The SIN Delusion

2Thessalonians 2:9-11

9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all
power and signs and wonders of falsehood,10and with all deceit of unrighteousness
in those perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, in order for them to be saved.11 And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood,12in order that all should be judged who did not believe the truth, but have delighted in the unrighteousness. 13But we ought to give thanks to Elohim

Psalm 14:1
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no YAHWEH.”

elnatural

Quote

Posted by: arugula (IP Logged)
Date: March 19, 2008 07:22PM


Romans 2:13-15 (New International Version)

13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

Quote

Posted by: elnatural_1 (IP Logged)
Date: March 20, 2008 08:02PM


The SIN Delusion

ephesians 4:18
18having been darkened in their under-standing, having been estranged from the
life of Elohim, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart,19who, having become callous, have given themselves up to indecency, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Hebrews 3:8
expectation firm to the end.7Therefore, as the Set-apart Spirit says,“Today, if you hear His voice,8do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness,9where your fathers tried Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years. 10“Therefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.’ 11 “As I swore in My wrath, ‘If they shall enter into My rest 12Look out, brothers, lest there be in any of you a wicked heart of unbelief in falling away from the living Elohim,13but encourage one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened by the deceivableness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of
Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end,15 while it is said, “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” 16For who, having heard, rebelled? Was it not all who came out of Mitsrayim, led by Mosheh? 17And with whom was He grieved forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? i

Hebrews 10:31
31It is fearsome to fall into the hands of the living Elohim.

mathew 10:28
28“And do not fear those who mock the existance of YAWHEY and can only kill the
body but are unable to kill the being. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both being and body in eternal Hell.

elnatural

Amen, amen and amen.

Quote

ephesians 4:18
18having been darkened in their under-standing, having been estranged from the
life of Elohim, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart,19who, having become callous, have given themselves up to indecency, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

One who does not believe in God can do immeasurably more good than someone else that purports to believe in some supernatural entity. Not believing in God does not stop you from being charitable, from helping the poor, helping the environment, loving yourself, appreciating the wonder of life and consciousness, and in general living a life of compassion and generosity.

Quote

Hebrews 3:8
expectation firm to the end.7Therefore, as the Set-apart Spirit says,“Today, if you hear His voice,8do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness,9where your fathers tried Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years. 10“Therefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.’ 11 “As I swore in My wrath, ‘If they shall enter into My rest 12Look out, brothers, lest there be in any of you a wicked heart of unbelief in falling away from the living Elohim,13but encourage one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened by the deceivableness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of
Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end,15 while it is said, “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” 16For who, having heard, rebelled? Was it not all who came out of Mitsrayim, led by Mosheh? 17And with whom was He grieved forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? i

If one lets fear rule their life, true happiness and compassion will never be achieved in my opinion. "Belief" in a supernatural being does not preclude one from having a "wicked heart", nor does a lack of belief assure it. Someone's goodness should be judged on their actions, on their generosity, on their compassion, and on their humility, not on some abstract supernatural belief.

Quote

Hebrews 10:31
31It is fearsome to fall into the hands of the living Elohim.

mathew 10:28
28“And do not fear those who mock the existance of YAWHEY and can only kill the
body but are unable to kill the being. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both being and body in eternal Hell.

Just some more examples of how religion prays on the fear of the unknown that all people have.

But what are YOUR thoughts on the matter? Have you watched the video? Read the book? What is stopping you? I might have the wrong impression but it seems like you are afraid to do so. Can you make an informed decision without having examined all of the evidence? It seems to make sense that, as Jefferson says, one should not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. In the video (and book) Dawkins makes many excellent points which I think could be quite illuminating for many people.

Cheers,
J

Jose, you haven't given a single fact in anything you've said. It's all opinion and something that you've taken by faith. You are taking something written by a modern day man by faith. It hasn't stood the test of time yet. Yet, Christians place their faith in Someone who has stood the test of time.

You ask if we've read your book and watched your video on one man's opinions. Have you read the Bible, which is written by many men and stood the test of time to remain the best-selling book?

People who don't believe in God are so adamant about it that it reveals their fear and hatred of God, not their disbelief in Him. If you don't believe in Him, you wouldn't be so adamant about it. Why would it matter to you if a bunch of people believed in something that didn't exist? Why does that threaten YOU? If I had an imaginary friend who was half child and half ostrich, you wouldn't think twice about it because it would be ridiculous. Yet the fervor in which some people are against God reveals that they know He DOES exist, but they're so angry and hateful at Him that it's easier to argue that He doesn't exist.

"People who don't believe in God are so adamant about it that it reveals their fear and hatred of God"

(some) People who believe in God are so adamant about it that it reveals their fear...

the bible is a book written by men to explain the unexplainable. personally, i dont' find that it does such a great job of that. and for me it's unexplainable for a reason, i don't think it's our job to try and figure that out. some people can't stand not knowing though, they just gotta think they have the answer even if that answer is bananas.

Quote

"People who don't believe in God are so adamant about it that it reveals their fear and hatred of God"

(some) People who believe in God are so adamant about it that it reveals their fear...

True, thank you. I certainly didn't intend to intimate ALL nonbelievers of God. Thank you for correcting me here and I apologize for my hasty typing.

Quote

the bible is a book written by men to explain the unexplainable. personally, i dont' find that it does such a great job of that. and for me it's unexplainable for a reason, i don't think it's our job to try and figure that out. some people can't stand not knowing though, they just gotta think they have the answer even if that answer is bananas.

Part of the conflict in belief stems from how a person views the Bible. I believe what it says. I believe that, while it was written down by men, that those men were inspired by God to write what they did. But, no amount of debate with someone that believes otherwise is going to change their mind, just as my mind cannot be changed on this.

I believe you're right, coco, that people do have an intense desire to understand everything and it gets chalked up to craziness when they can't. Personally, I wouldn't WANT to believe in a god that I COULD fully understand. If I fully understood God, He wouldn't BE God.

I also believe that the Bible is either to be wholly believed or else it's just one great novel. It can't be picked apart with someone saying, "I believe this, but I don't believe that." Otherwise they're picking and choosing what THEY like and not what an Omnipotent God said. I like this quote by St. Augustine:

"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."

Something else I find very interesting is that political correctness screams out for tolerance and yet it's okay to be intolerant of God and those who believe in Him. Heaven forbid we have any intolerance for anything else.

There won't be any athiests or evolutionists in Hell! LOL

elnatural



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2008 10:47PM by elnatural_1.

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

elnatural

it's not a person's personal beliefs that i am intolerant of,it's the sort of sentiment expressed above that is offensive to me. the whole "i believe and you don't, nyah nyah, you're going to hell" holier-than-thou nonsense that is such a turn off. if i had any interest, any interest at all in religion it certainly would not be peaked by that sort of horribly dismissive, negative, fear mongering attitude. people who express such thoughts and feelings are guilt of pushing others farther and farther away from religion, they reveal the dirty underside of organized religion that is certainly something to avoid if you value your peace of mind. and that is what is most prevalent with the religious set In My Experience (no offense to anyone who doesn't embrace those thoughts, i am not speaking of you). fear is not a basis for anything positive or progressive, it rubs me the wrong way as i am sure it does many others. and yes, i am fairly intolerant of that. who wouldn't be? i can't be scared into eatting cows by doctors with a meat eating agenda, i sure can't be scared into christianity by "believers" with fear and hatred in their hearts.

Hey Simple Living,

Quote

Jose, you haven't given a single fact in anything you've said. It's all opinion and something that you've taken by faith.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as all I've said in this thread is that the video and Q&A are interesting and insightful for those seeking a well rounded religious education. Haven't made any assertions that I'm aware of, aside from simply maintaining that non-believers can be every bit as good or more than those who believe in an abstract supernatural entity.

Quote

You are taking something written by a modern day man by faith. It hasn't stood the test of time yet.

I'm not taking anything on faith, simply considering the rational arguments brought forward in the video and Q&A.

Quote

Yet, Christians place their faith in Someone who has stood the test of time.

There's plenty of things in the Bible and other religious texts (Jewish, Muslim, etc...) that haven't stood the test of time. For an example just read Jefferson's letter which I quote above.

Quote

People who don't believe in God are so adamant about it that it reveals their fear and hatred of God, not their disbelief in Him. If you don't believe in Him, you wouldn't be so adamant about it. Why would it matter to you if a bunch of people believed in something that didn't exist? Why does that threaten YOU?

I'm not particularly adamant, just simply started a thread on criticisms of theistic belief systems. These irrational beliefs do have big repercussions in the world at large, and throughout history religious grievances have fuelled many conflicts and wars. It essentially acts as an identifier, one more reason for one people to band together and threaten some other people. The main underlying philosophical problem with theistic religion, of course, is that it discourages critical thought. Things are taken as given, there is no semblance of inquiry or critique, and theistic religions revel in mystery and ambiguity. All this of course culminates in the belief that there is a supernatural being, which claim is of course entirely without basis. This suspension of rational faculties is amply evident in the world today, from world leaders which "pray" for success in war, to others which ask their particular "deity" for inspiration and courage whilst stripping people of their freedoms.

Why not dispense with all that artificiality and refuse to believe in things that cannot be proven in any way, shape or form? Why not just be good for it's own sake, because of our underlying humanity and compassion, and not because of any exterior reason? There is absolutely no need for any God in this world. We can treat each other well without needing to do so under pain of punishment or expectation of reward from some imaginary "deity". Forget about God, and just be nice to your neighbour. That way, no leader or religious headpiece can manipulate your goodwill, and use people's good intentions for ulterior motives. Just imagine, say to yourself "There is no God" and then next time you seek an explanation for something and someone says "That's the way it is" or "God did it" you will be able to clearly realise that this response is simply not good enough. Rebelling against the dimming effect of religious thought and dogma would open up people's spirit to the greatness of our world, and the beauty of nature and scientific inquiry. As Jefferson says Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion.

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You ask if we've read your book and watched your video on one man's opinions. Have you read the Bible, which is written by many men and stood the test of time to remain the best-selling book?

Yes, of course, many times, as well as other religious texts. I'm not afraid to read any book, as I recognise it is simply ideas and thoughts, of whose merit I will decide upon using reason and logic. I find many religious people are afraid to even read certain books or watch certain videos that might in some way be viewed as "threatening" their beliefs. I seriously do not understand that mentality. For example, if tomorrow you told me, Jose, I have this amazing video that really shows how theistic belief is the way to go, check it out, I would have no qualms in watching it.

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If I had an imaginary friend who was half child and half ostrich, you wouldn't think twice about it because it would be ridiculous.

Well, I would be quite concerned if that otherwise harmless imaginary friend induced you to self-righteously proclaim superiority or mastery over any other person whilst at the same time dimming your powers of critical thought.

Quote

Yet the fervor in which some people are against God reveals that they know He DOES exist, but they're so angry and hateful at Him that it's easier to argue that He doesn't exist.

Not really, I'm pretty sure God doesn't exist, there is no evidence to support that assertion. I'm pretty sure we do exist though, and believe there is true value in being compassionate and rational with one another without recourse to any exterior forms.

Cheers,
J

John 3:16-21
16“For Elohim so loved the world that He gave His only brought-forth Son, so
that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but possess everlasting life.
17“For Elohim did not send His Son into the world to judge the world, but that the
world through Him might be saved.
18“He who believes in Him is not judged,but he who does not believe is judged already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only brought-forth Son of Elohim.

19“And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked.
20“For everyone who is practising evil matters hates the light and does not come
to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
21“But the one doing the truth comes to the light, so that his works are clearly
seen, that they have been wrought in Elohim.”

elnatural

Hi Jose,

This is the first time I'm writing you a message and I think I have read many of your wonderful threads on this forum, including "A4 papercut", which I find particularly interested in. :-)

Hmmm... so this is a thread on religion right? From what I can tell from your previous posts, you are a quite open-minded person and I believe we can have a warm conversation on this. To me, I feel one of the reason why it's a sensitive issue is because that it contains something that we humans don't know and it has relationship to our own limitations. As you know, things can only be visible to us when lights are being reflected by the objects into our eyes, and light itself has a wide range of wavelengths. Most importantly, the range of visible wavelengths of light are merely 400-700nm and it only lies in a very small region of the entire electromagnetic spectrum. In another words, I can safely assume that a majority of us are not capable of "seeing" 99% of the things in this universe right?

Hmmm... actually not all religions failed to "stood the test of time", at least not Buddhism. To be honest, I think Buddhism is a religion that is different from the rest of the religions. In Physics, we learned that every substance in universe is made of atoms, and atoms are made of nucleon and electrons that are far apart. This literally means that everything on Earth, including our body, is just "empty". Nonetheless, this somehow matches the teachings of Buddha around 3000 years ago, which in Hear Sutra says that "Form is empty. Emptiness is form."

Jose, I know you are interested in Physics, but are you interested in knowing more about Space Physics as well? I think here is an article that is well related Space Physics to Buddhism: [www.amtfweb.org].

Some may ask: What was Buddha doing on Earth 3000 years ago? Well... maybe it's like what you said, is to teach the people to "just be good for it's own sake, because of our underlying humanity and compassion" or it could be other reasons as well. Nevertheless, there is something which is common in all venerable saying about Buddha, it's that Buddha was here to tell us a very important truth that is not known by many- reincarnation. More importantly, Buddha taught us an easiest and simplest way to be free from reincarnation in this life itself, which is through the practice of Pure Land Buddhism. In today's western world, I believe reincarnation is no longer new because the westerners have found a way to recall one's memories in their past lives and it's through hypnosis.

All the Best,
Wong



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2008 01:22PM by blue_sky.

I love discussions about spirituality.

...and for the record, to me there is a vast difference between "religion" and spirituality.

I feel that the blind adherence to dogma, whether religious or atheist is equally ignorant. These debates arise because people are trying to use words to convey an idea that defies language. Organised religion fails because it tries to define very narrow parameters of what constitutes "God"... His name is Jesus or Mohamed, you can't eat meat on Friday during lent, or you must use these specific words to pray, etc. Organised religion seeks to dictate the minutiae of what should be a very personal experience. Atheism fails because it is only a reaction to organised religion. Atheists are so caught up in debunking the details of organised religion that they too have become obsessively attached to the word "God", but in the opposite extreme. Atheists say "hey, that's not how I experience the world...there must not be a God."

The problem is, that the words that are being used to describe the experience are being confused with the experience itself...both sides seem more concerned with having everyone else believe their words and not concerned at all with the wordless experiences that are common to all of us. Instead of using the word God, what if we used the word Love? ...Beauty? ...Wonderment? ...Life? None of these words can be adequately defined. We can describe them... we can say what it feels like to feel love, or to experience beauty, but we don't know these things until we experience them for ourselves... and our experiences will all be profoundly different. Just like it would be ridiculous for one organization to determine what is in fact beautiful for everyone, it is just as ridiculous for one organization to determine what is God for everyone...but that doesn't mean that beauty and God don't exist for the individual. We can read everything that has ever been written about pineapples, their botany, taxonomy, nutritional information, descriptions of it's taste and recipes for its preparation, but until we taste it for ourselves we don't know it at all. And once we do taste it, there is no way of describing exactly how it tastes to us so that another person can truly know our experience...they have to taste it for themselves... And if their experience is different than the one we described, how is it our place to call their experience wrong?

Michael Franti said it best...."God is too big for just one religion!"

Aloha Nui Loa,

Greg

A great many people think they are thinking when they are really rearranging their prejudices. - William James

There is no pill that can be swallowed,
There is no guru, that can be followed, - Michael Franti (Pray For Grace)

The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion. - Albert Camus

The God Reality:

"Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead... For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the law in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit."
-Szekely, The Essene Gospel of Peace, Book 1


"You will learn and realize that fasting and superior fasting (and not volumes of psychology and philosophy) is the real and only key to a superior life; to the revelation of a superior world, and to the spiritual world."
-A. Ehret, Mucusless Diet Healing System


"...doubt, losing faith and belief will return again and again as long as waste and old poisons are circulating thru the brain for elimination. You are saved from this tragical error, I hope."
-A. Ehret, Mucusless Diet Healing System



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2008 07:39PM by Omega.

lol... Its funny when people dont believe in a higher power. Like all of this just happened by accident... I am sure that Richard Dawkins found a good reason for how this all happened aswell.

lol... its also funny how athiests think everyone who believes in god is crazy.

The atheists attacking the religious is an example of M Scott Peck's Stage III people attacking Stage II people. Here is an excerpt about those stages:

Quote

Peck postulates that there are four stages of human spiritual development:

Stage I is chaotic, disordered, and reckless. Very young children are in Stage I. They tend to defy and disobey, and are unwilling to accept a will greater than their own. Many criminals are people who have never grown out of Stage I.

Stage II is the stage at which a person has blind faith. Once children learn to obey their parents, they reach Stage II. Many so-called religious people are essentially Stage II people, in the sense that they have blind faith in God, and do not question His existence. With blind faith comes humility and a willingness to obey and serve. The majority of good law-abiding citizens never move out of Stage II.

Stage III is the stage of scientific skepticism and inquisitivity. A Stage III person does not accept things on faith but only accepts them if convinced logically. Many people working in scientific and technological research are in Stage III.

Stage IV is the stage where an individual starts enjoying the mystery and beauty of nature. While retaining skepticism, he starts perceiving grand patterns in nature. His religiousness and spirituality differ significantly from that of a Stage II person, in the sense that he does not accept things through blind faith but does so because of genuine belief. Stage IV people are labelled as Mystics.

For more about this, read The Stages of Spiritual Growth.

Thanks Bryan,

I liked that post and will read more later.

Hey wong,

Sorry about the delay in replying, I've been meaning to get back to this thread for a while. You're right when you say that we are incapable of seeing most of the matter of the Universe with our own eyes. Our eyes are only sensitive to a narrow range of the electromagnetic spectrum, namely those wavelengths which, due to their utility on this planet, we have evolved to appreciate. So the things we can see with our eyes is only a tiny portion of what we could detect with more sophisticated equipment. Even with sophisticated equipment, at present the best estimates that astrophysicists have come up with is that the Universe is made up of about 5% of "known" matter, which we can detect directly, around 25% of something referred to as "cold dark matter", which we can't detect directly, and the other 70% or so of something referred to as "dark energy". Don't worry too much about the names of things, the point is that the vast majority of the stuff in the Universe is not directly detectable at present, or very well understood. Of course, thanks to scientific knowledge we at least know 5% of matter, and partly understand some of the rest. The arrogance and at the same time ignorance with which religion presumes to adequately explain the Universe through some fabricated stories someone wrote a few thousand years ago never fails to baffle me though. It is only through science, and mathematics, which is the language of Nature, that we can hope to improve our understanding of the great mysteries of the Universe. Dogmatic religious belief clearly does not help at all. Without mathematics, reason and evidence, we are all destined to be truly blind to the wonders of the Universe.

I do have a bit more sympathy with Buddhism than most other religions, since it seems to be less interventionist, and more of a philosophy and a way of life, and also less centralised than many other religions. But again, even Buddhism makes claims that have not stood the test of time or scientific scrutiny. Whilst you are right in saying that we consist mostly of empty space, I don't find it convincing to say that this somehow matches the teachings of the Buddha. It is not the same to say "Form is empty, emptiness is form" than to describe in great detail the internal symmetries of the nucleus, or the interactions between elementary particles. I read the article you posted, and again, I don't find it convincing to claim that since Buddhism claims that "Time is not real", that this somehow is analogous to the theory of relativity. Saying "Form is empty" or "Time isn't real" is not the same as writing precise equations which show the precise relations between the different quarks in the proton, or the relativistic effects of space-time physics, or quantum mechanical effects of black holes. Mathematics is the language of Nature to a very large degree, and I feel a lack in the understanding of mathematics does not allow a true appreciation of the wonder of Nature.

I think Buddha was probably quite a wise man, and also, for example Jesus Christ, but almost certainly not "divine" or supernatural. Certainly, even if not entirely original, the teachings of Buddha and Jesus can be quite interesting from a purely moral/ethical point of view. Any claim of the physical world that they made is not as interesting or relevant as the wisdom they showed at times.


As for reincarnation, I'll have to say I'm skeptical, although I have to admit a lack of knowledge in terms of rigorous experiments, etc... that may have been done to falsify/prove that theory. The point is that for ANY claim, such as reincarnation, divinity, intervention through prayer, etc... (or even more mundane things like how good a certain juicer is), one should always demand convincing evidence before even remotely considering believing it. If you are aware of some rigorous scientific study on reincarnation then please do share it with us as it would be interesting.

Hey greg,

<<I feel that the blind adherence to dogma, whether religious or atheist is equally ignorant>>

I think you've got the wrong idea here, as atheism has nothing to do with dogma, it's just a lack of belief in god(s). I think I agree with you that there is a lot of beauty and wonder in the world, most of which is missed by religious believers I'm afraid. It is only by keeping an open mind and respecting reason and evidence that one can truly appreciate the wonder of the Universe. It is also true to a large extent that mathematics is the language of Nature, and that a lack of understanding of mathematics, reason and evidence can hinder a deeper appreciation of the Universe.

Hey Context,

<<lol... Its funny when people dont believe in a higher power. Like all of this just happened by accident... I am sure that Richard Dawkins found a good reason for how this all happened aswell.>>

Like what happened? Evolution? Galaxy formation? The Universe? We know a lot more about these things thanks to science than we could ever hope to learn from any dogmatic religious belief. Have a look in Wikipedia for all these things, it's a good place to start.

<<lol... its also funny how athiests think everyone who believes in god is crazy.>>

I don't think theists are crazy, in fact most of them are quite good people. All I'm saying is that a dogmatic religious belief system hinders critical though, reason and a respect for evidence.

Hey brian,

I believe most of the time, and it should be all the time, atheists are not "attacking the religious" but rather the religious belief system. It is a critique of ideas, not people. I certainly try to stick to that.

As far as the stages which you quote, I can't say I agree with the labelling of people in that way, or in general. I also find it amusing that Stage III is given to the rationalists, yet abandoning reason is considered superior and an entry requirement into Stage IV. I would argue that one can best marvel at the mystery of Nature through a deep understanding of science and mathematics, through reason and evidence. For example, like I wrote above, what greater insight into the wonder of Nature can be found at present than to realise that only around 5% of the Universe is made up of matter which we can directly detect and understand, or that the fabric space-time can stretch so much as to create black holes? Of course, one will not find any such intriguing possibilities in any religious scripture. Your article further claims that it is only by passing through reason and Stage III can one enter Stage IV,

Quote

Advanced Stage III men and women are active truth seekers.

Despite being scientifically minded, in many cases even atheists, they are on a higher spiritual level than Stage II, being a required stage of growth to enter into Stage IV

yet it is not necessary to believe in any deity to marvel at the intricate mysteries of the Universe, or to be deeply ethical/moral to fellow living beings. Indeed, to abandon the path which got you to such a place in the first place does not seem very wise.

Quote

Mystic, communal. Out of love and commitment to the whole, using their ability to transcend their backgrounds, culture and limitations with all others, reaching toward the notion of world community and the possibility of either transcending culture or -- depending on which way you want to use the words -- belonging to a planetary culture.

Up to here, there is no need to suspend reason.

the following sentence doesn't make sense of course, since scientists are always "living in the unknown" to a large extent. That's what research is all about. This author does not appreciate the fact that the language of Nature is mathematics, and it is through this language that the deepest mysteries can be contemplated.

Quote

They are religious, not looking for clear cut, proto type answers, but desiring to enter into the mystery of uncertainty, living in the unknown.

Then it goes on to make some unsubstantiated claims that it is the "religious mystics" that can "contemplate, meditate and reflect" that even though all scripture acts as "fallible pointers to inspiration" it still contains the "nature of God".

Quote

The Christian mystic, as with all other mystics, Sufi and Zen alike, through contemplation, meditation, reflection and prayer, see the Christ, Gods indwelling Spirit or the Buddha nature, in all people, including all the Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews and so forth, recognizing the connectedness of all humanity with God, never separating oneself from others with doctrine and scripture, recognizing that all scripture acts as fallible pointers of inspiration, unable to capture the essence of truth outside of both human perception and the linguistic straight jacket of language and articulation, that is, the words of fallible men who experienced the nature of God, that of their inner true self, and attempted to record their experience in human words, words constrained by the era of time they were written in that became compromised the moment they were penned and are further removed from objectivity when interpreted by us, fallible men and women who read them. [Previous sentence added by Richard Schwartz.]

Of course it is far more likely that the stories in religious scriptures were penned in order to exert political influence over a certain people during a certain time. A deeper knowledge of history and politics should be a good indication that this is quite likely the case.

The article is clearly written with a religious agenda in mind, and fails to realise it makes a logical fallacy when it claims that it is necessary for people to pass Stage III before going to Stage IV, and it is not sufficient for Stage III to appreciate the mystery of life. I would probably invert the order of Stage IV and Stage III, it would make more sense. So for example, IV follows logically from II

Quote

It is as if the words of each had two different translations. In the Christian example: "Jesus is my savior," Stage II often translates this into a Jesus who is a kind of fairy godmother who will rescue us whenever we get in trouble as long as we remember to call upon his name. At Stage IV, "Jesus is my savior" is translated as "Jesus, through his life and death, taught the way, not through virgin births, cosmic ascensions, walking on water and blood sacrifice of reconciliation - man with an external daddy Warbucks that lives in the sky - mythological stories interpreted as literal accounts, but rather as one loving the whole, the outcasts, overcoming prejudices, incorporating inclusiveness and unconditional love, this, with the courage to be as oneself - that is what I must follow for my salvation." Two totally different meanings.

And the next logical step would be to take on board the wisdom, courage and love (which in any case does not originate from religious texts) and forget about God, since there is no evidence for that. For some reason people find it hard to keep the message but forget about the messenger, perhaps because it can be quite a comforting thought I suppose.

In any case, not one scientist will claim to have all the answers, but the path to further knowledge has been shown to be reason and evidence. There is not much to be argued with that I think. Many times people use the word "God" to refer to the God of Spinoza, like Einstein often did, but this is nothing more than an appreciation for the deep beauty and mystery of Nature. This appreciation is in no way similar to that of theistic belief, since it is brought about by reason and evidence and improved physical understanding, the complete opposite of dogma.

Cheers,
J

[I would argue that one can best marvel at the mystery of Nature through a deep understanding of science and mathematics, through reason and evidence.}

I totally agree with this. There is nothing deeper or more mysterious.

And I am definitely not a Peck fan. He was a monster.

[www.timesonline.co.uk]

Jose,

Religious scripture is in the domain of the religious, or the Stage II folk. As are religious beliefs. Myself, I am in the process of eliminating all my beliefs (including religious, scientific, medical, etc), and instead relying on experience. There is another place outside of religious beliefs, which I call spiritual experience, not based on belief, but based on personal experience. For myself, I have been on a spiritual path for years, experiencing and coming to understand reality in a way that is not typically taught in our schools or textbooks or religious scripture.

For yourself, in your experience of nature and the universe, do you recognize an intelligence or consciousness behind nature or the universe, or do you see life and nature as a haphazard random occurrence, without an intelligence or consciousness behind its form and behavior? I am not speaking of creationism versus evolution, but rather an order behind all of reality, based on some intelligence/consciousness.

There have been great men in our history, including Albert Einstein and David Bohm, who excelled in the sciences, but had a deep regard for the spiritual in the universe, that which is outside of the phenomena that is perceivable by human senses.

By the way, I am glad you included that quote on Jefferson. I too have noticed the difference between the different Jesus stories in the Bible

Quote

It is the history of a personage called Jesus. Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions: 1, of those who say he was begotten by God, born of a virgin, suspended & reversed the laws of nature at will, & ascended bodily into heaven; and 2, of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions to divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition, by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law

In another writing Jefferson says

Quote

In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick diamonds from a dunghill

Many others have noted these disparities, and one writer in particular, Stephen Mitchell, has written a book called "The Gospel According to Jesus" - a new translation and guild to the essential teaching for believers and unbelievers. This book culls the diamonds that Jefferson describes while leaving behind the dung. In the appendix are writings concerning Jesus from Spinoza, Jefferson, Blake, Emerson, Thoreau, Tolstoy, Nietzsche, Shaw, Gandhi, and Maharshi.

I am pretty sure you have a good idea of how Stage II people perceive nature and the universe, and how some folk (say Stage II fundamental Christians) explain the origin of the universe and the nature of its creation and creator.

But what do understand about how Stage IV people view reality or God for that matter? Because from what you write, it seems like you think they have the exact same viewpoint.

Bryan, how do you plan to function in the world without any beliefs? Sounds a bit unrealistic.

Spiritual perception does not take place in the analytical section of the brain, therefore it is not possible for scientific analysis, evidence, and reasoning to lead one to that experience.

communitybuilder,

What belief is necessary to have to function in the world?

exactly... beliefs are dualistic, implying there is something not to believe in. Acceptance, without labeling it acceptance. Perhaps openess or being in openess is a better term to describe it. Then by using intent guided by love... without attachment, brings about miracles.

"Like what happened? Evolution? Galaxy formation? The Universe? We know a lot more about these things thanks to science than we could ever hope to learn from any dogmatic religious belief. Have a look in Wikipedia for all these things, it's a good place to start. "

Wikipedia knows almost nothing! It might have a clue, but science is always changing. At one time the world was flat, the techtonic plates did not shift, the universe revolved around the earth, the 5 minute mile could not be broken, nothing was smaller than the atom, and on and on and on. THe origins of the universe are nothing more than speculation, and for every scientific hypothesis... there is science that will refute it. I am not saying science is evil, I am saying that much of science is the egos way of trying to be in control. IE if I know how everything works then I am in control somehow. There is a book by gregg braden called the divine matrix. It explains the "proven science" of how we are all connected. How dna is still connected to the mind, even though it is over 300 miles away. Aswell the new science is pretty well proving God. Quantum Science is showing how the mind alters matter when we get into sub atomics. The newtonian paradigm does not want to go this way... because of old habits.


"I don't think theists are crazy, in fact most of them are quite good people. All I'm saying is that a dogmatic religious belief system hinders critical though, reason and a respect for evidence. "

I think dogma leads to a closed mind aswell... I just need to see all the "fundamentalists" of any religion to see this. However there are many scientific fundamenalists aswell that are just as wacked out. But if I keep an open mind... then I can see the evidence, and how it inspires me because of how God made things. Looking at evidence... does not change the awe of God.

Think about this for a second. Have you ever been in a situation that you just cannot stand? I mean for all intents and purposes you should be fine... but for some reason you just cant handle it. IE your in a conventional marrige with a good job, 2 great kids, and a great wife... but you have alarm bells going off in your head that you need to get out. You cannot explain it... but it feels like your dying. This is your spirit/instinct/god sense telling you that you need to follow your intuition. It happens with everything... jobs, school... alot of things. And then other times something that totally turns other people off might interest you like crazy... its like your calling. Your spirit is telling you to advance... all things are go.

I mean if dawkins were to explain this... I am sure he would say something like you are irrational and mentally imbalanced... and to take some prozac. I mean the ego likes to be in control... if it is not in control, then what exactly is in control? So we try to shun god... but then it gets worse and worse. I can go on and on regarding any situation where man kind goes against god, and loses.