Yes, I know there is a raw pet forum, but it's slow and I wanted to come here first to ask if anyone has some holistic ideas about what to do about my 8 yr. old dog's back molar that is loose and his teeth have tarter build up.

I feed him raw food as a carnivore would get, and some raw bones also. He gets chew bones, and rawhide bones also. But I think because I quit the harder kibble bits for him 5 years ago it left him open to getting the tarter build up.

They want a lot of money to take care of canine teeth, and so I'm going to try my own remedies first until I get enough money to take him to the vet for a cleaning and maybe an extraction of that tooth. I'm aiming for spring time.

Love,
Prism

If it's painful or liable to get infected, you may want to try to contact an independent vet -- not the kind in a corporate type setting, a solo practitioner and ask him/her if they will work something out with you like monthly payments. I did that once with a vet who I had previously taken my dog to. My dog needed some care and I didn't have the total amount of money to pay for it upfront. The vet took care of my dog and then let me pay him over several months.

Some vets may be open to this, some not. I wouldn't bother asking one who works in a corporate owned clinic or a clinic inside a Petsmart or Petco type thing.

I know it's tough to see a pet suffer. I'm sorry I don't have any better ideas.

Lee

I don't think there's anything you can do for a loose tooth. You should have a dental vet look at it and get an xray. Regular vets can't xray teeth so don't even bother. It was only $45 to have a dental xray on my dog. (not counting the office visit fee) Teeth aren't something to mess with, depending on how loose it is..bacteria might get under the gum and cause an infection. Dental infections are the worst because somehow it can be connected to the heart. I don't know why or how it's just something I've read and heard quite a few times. If you have to wait then maybe brush around that tooth to keep it clean. Or a supplement to destroy bacteria and keep the immune system up.

The tarter will scrape right off if you give the right kinds of bones. I adopted a 1 year old..yes a ONE year old! with green and orange teeth because they must've fed him nice colorful kibblesNBits. Those fat raw marrow bones didn't do a thing. I had to give him beef rib bones. It has to do with the shape and size and how they fit int heir mouth and how they chew. Ribsfit perfectly against the back molars..they were pure white within 2 weeks. Marrows are good for the canine teeth because of how they position their head and the canines scrape right against it sideways.

Raw hide is crap..they can't even digest it and it's not even raw. Raw feeding doesn't guarantee good teeth.. it's all about the types of bones you give. I know kibble feeders who give marrows and ribs and the dogs teeth don't have that built up tarter mess on them.

How big is your dog LikeItOrNot? I was thinking of trying the rib bones, I don't know that my dog will even or if he used the right back molars due to that loose tooth.

Last night I brushed his teeth first with some hydrogen peroxide mixed in water about 50/50% solution I'd say, and he didn't mind that at all, then I brushed them with some little Iodine in water too. I got some of the loose tartar off that bad tooth, so I'm wondering if it might tighten up if I can correct his diet and get that area clean enough.

I also read about a dog product that you spray on his teeth 2x a day and it's got grapefruit seed extract in it and it's supposed to clear up the tartar and bacteria also within 2 months.

What about using the dog toothpaste they have at the pet stores? Anyone use that stuff? I think I'll look online for home-made dog toothpaste see what comes up.

Lee, yes good idea. I know that around Feb/March my local vet has the dental cleaning for 1/2 price, it comes around once a year only and that's a good deal. I might try for that or there's someone that does a type of dental cleaning without having to put the dog thru anesthesia and they clean the teeth. I don't think they do anything about loose teeth though, but maybe a recommendation on the health of the tooth?

Thanks much!

Love,
Prism

my 2 yr old chi came with nearly black teeth
from SAD for dogs. 1 month of raw chicken (whole)

plus her coat went from dull to shiny, and her
body got very muscular from the challenge.

best of luck prism

You might ask Nora at Ultimate K-9 Health.

sorry part of my message was gone--->

....one month of raw chicken (whole) and her teeth were
completely white


i have found the softer bones (chicken) to be just
hard enough to clean her teeth, while the harder
bones (marrow and knuckle bones) were more apt to chip them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/26/2007 03:48AM by fruitgirl.

Nora's yahoo group is not about asking for remedies but I did join another group there a few days ago to ask this question of them. I'll let you know what responses I get, maybe on the raw pet food forum.

Fruitgirl, did your dog have any loose teeth that you knew about? I have been giving my dog raw chicken bones but maybe not enough maybe? How often does your dog get the raw bones? I give him the large part of the wing bone, and thigh bones. He eats them with the chicken part now just fine. He gets some loose stool due to too much chicken sometimes though and I do mostly give him the organic/free range 0 antibiotic meat.

I'm going to try the rib bones, see how that helps. Oh dear..I can see this should get moved to the pet forum now..too much about carnivores

Bryan, if you would move it to the pet forum that would be fine. Thanks so much for all your responses.

Love,
Prism

chicken wings and turkey necks - the best things to naturally clean dogs teeth.

Allie =^..^=

[www.stronger.me.uk]

Hi Prism,

White Oak Bark is a very powerful astringent that is used to tighten up the gums. It is also a good antibacterial, particularly for gum infections. I have seen these types of things heal in people by packing powdered white oak bark around the gums and between the teeth. Sometimes rolled up cotton is used to keep the powder against the teeth.

The challenge with your dog is, of course, to be able to apply such remedies. Some animals are cooperative and I've heard of these types of things being used sucessfully. If your dog will chew on twigs/branches of white oak bark, that is a possibility.

Other useful herbs and natural remedies for the teeth and gums (some of which may be harder to get your dog to tolerate) include:

cayenne - good to stimulate circulation which promotes healing, also some antibacterial properties.

garlic - strong anti-infective/antibacterial (idea being that gum infection is the underlying cause of the loose tooth)

Cloves- antibacterial and numbing of the pain

tea tree oil - powerful anti-bacterial anti-infective anti-fungal

Clay - A powerful drawing clay will draw infection out of the gums and many are also loaded with calcium. One that I like is: [www.pascalite.com] Another is terramin or terrapak which can be found in a google search. If I was going to try this, I would try to pack this around the gum line and sit with the dog for 15-20 minutes or so (longer if you can)

You can also make up teas of white oak bark and the other herbs listed here and use a water pick to apply them to the gum line. This can work if your dog is cooperative. [herbdoc.com] sells an excellent liquid tooth and gum formula if you don't want to make up your own.

Here's another marketed product for these types of things:
[www.herbsfirst.com]

good Luck,

Nataraj

My dog is 25lbs but you can't always go by weight..my other one weighs the same but because they're different breeds their teeth are different sizes.

Watch out with peroxide.. that's used to make a dog throw up when they swallow something they shouldn't. So depending on his size he might get an upset stomach from swallowing it.

All dog toothpaste is crap..especially the ones in petstores. The only dog tooth paste that actually works is the CET Enzymatic Tarter Control that you have to get from a vet. It only works because of the enzymes.. My theory is that if you bought some kind of high quality powdered enzyme for humans..(E3 makes powdered which is what gave me the idea) you could make a paste out of that. But I haven't tried this yet.


Becareful with herbs..do Google searches and research if you're going to use anything. Dogs are more sensitive to some herbs than people are. Tea Tree Oil is usually only recommended externally/topically for dogs and is toxic to small animals, cats and little chihuahua type dogs.

alliecatt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chicken wings and turkey necks - the best things
> to naturally clean dogs teeth.


Not true. A dog cleaning their teeth with chicken wings is like you cleaning your teeth with carrots.

My dogs crunch twice and swallow those things in seconds.

Nataraj thanks for those remedies..I will try find some of the white oak bark, I wonder if I can get it in a tincture maybe. I'll do a search for that. I thought about my tea tree oil but it's so vial tasting that I doubt he would stand for that and it might be too strong for him anyway. It's an oil so mixing it water like the peroxide is impossible to do.

I might try adding the garlic (I have been putting garlic in his dog mixture I make) if I make more of his dog food, for now I have just cut back to giving him only meat without the additives I usually add, and of course the chicken wing or thigh bones with meat on them sometimes. I should have given them more often possibly.

I do have 2 water piks, and I could try the smaller one on him..but while it will cleanse well the gum line it's not going to removed tartar I don't think. I could put a drop of Iodine in that water first which may help with tartar.

I kind of like the clay idea..I'll have to research that one too.

LikeItOrNot, that's what I thought about the pet store toothpaste that it was probably crap. I may ask my vet about that CET enzymatic tarter control toothpaste, thanks for the ideas!

I feel bad that I didn't realize his teeth had gotten that bad to have a loose one, but while they do have tartar when I do brush them lately, they don't look bad, they look ok except for that one. I should have gotten him in for routine dental care though.

Love,
Prism

Prism Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nataraj thanks for those remedies..I will try find
> some of the white oak bark, I wonder if I can get
> it in a tincture maybe. I'll do a search for that.

You can buy a pound of good quality cut white oak bark from [www.pacificbotanicals.com]. Make a decoction by simmering the cut herbs (1 tbsp herbs/8oz distilled water) for about 20 minutes. (yes, I know it's not raw. Some herbs extract well at low temperatures, but some things like barks and dense roots are better extracted at higher temps). Strain the tea, cool and use in a water pick. Alternatively, just pack the powder in.

White oak bark is very powerful. I was amazed the first time I packed some on my gumline.

Though it wouldn't be dangerous, I would try if possible not to have the dog swallow too much white oak bark. Even though white oak bark is used internally, too much can create too much tightening of the tissue of the digestive tract.

> I thought about my tea tree oil but it's so vial
> tasting that I doubt he would stand for that and
> it might be too strong for him anyway. It's an oil
> so mixing it water like the peroxide is impossible
> to do.
>
> I might try adding the garlic (I have been putting
> garlic in his dog mixture I make) if I make more
> of his dog food, for now I have just cut back to
> giving him only meat without the additives I
> usually add, and of course the chicken wing or
> thigh bones with meat on them sometimes. I should
> have given them more often possibly.
>
> I do have 2 water piks, and I could try the
> smaller one on him..but while it will cleanse well
> the gum line it's not going to removed tartar I
> don't think. I could put a drop of Iodine in that
> water first which may help with tartar.

Brushing his teeth with powdered horsetail, perhaps mixed with some powdered white oak bark (or the herbal tooth powder) wet in paste form should work. You might try [www.westernbotanicals.com] for these herbs powdered (call and ask if it's not on their web site).

Clay might also take the tarter off.

I like LikeItOrNot's idea of enzymes. I tried the E3 enzymes to take myself and they were not so effective. The most potent enzymes I've tried are David Wolf's beauty enzymes. [www.enzymesinc.com] are supposed to be quite potent as well. Even so, I think I would just go to the vet and get the product designed to take tarter off the teeth.


Gratefully,
Nataraj

[www.lebalab.com]

I just heard about this from a friend who has used it. I don't know what I think of it yet. My chi doesn't have great teeth or breath despite 100% simple raw diet since age 8 weeks and regular raw bones, though everything else about her seems very healthy.

First Bryan, thanks for letting this thread stay just a bit longer here. I'm learning a lot. I'm sorry to others that it may be offensive..and if Bryan wants he can move it at anytime to the pet forum.

I bought my dog a rack of beef ribs and after he ate his normal raw food, I gave him one of the ribs tonight. He's 8 and 1/2 yrs. old and this is his first raw rib bone, usually I only have given him the raw chicken thigh or wing bones but not often.

Oh my gosh..well, he took to it in a very primal fashion and knew exactly what to do with it, even though he didn't know exactly how to go about doing it at first. Even with the bad molar he managed to clean the bone and now we have one fierce little Maltese keeping guard over his 'treasure'. I'd be glad if he could bury it..but I'll have to take it when I have anyone over..not that I think he'd bite anyone but you just never know with animals. I have a feeling he may think he can bring it to bed tonight

I will let you all know how the rib bones help his teeth. Can anyone tell me how often he should get a new one of the rib bones? I am guessing once a week, and he can just keep working the old bone for the week..or until it stinks? I don't know if it might do that, because he's cleaning it very well.

I should take a picture some before pics and after pics of his teeth..I think I will do that but I'll probably need help with that chore.

Now, I need to pick one of the first remedies that was suggested from above posts to try first in healing that loose tooth and see if it will tighten up, and if there's infection (so hard to tell that) if that will clear it up. I'm kind of leaning towards the oak bark or the clay or the vet enzyme toothpaste? Maybe the oak bark and the enzyme toothpaste first, give those a month maybe and see what happens.

I am definitely going to find a dental vet though, (they have holistic ones I wonder?) and get that tooth xrayed asap, and then go from there..but I feel I need to do something in the meantime.

Thanks Aquadecoco for the link, I just checked it out and looked at the before and after pics, my dog's teeth look like Spud's teeth mostly. Have you given your Chi a raw rib bone ever? Wow..they want like $60 per bottle of the stuff and it's seemingly only mint and rose essential oils in an alcohol tincture. I wonder if I can make my own..I have wintermint and peppermint essential oils, I might research more on this and if I can make my own I'll let you all know that too.

Love,
Prism



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2007 02:14AM by Prism.

Aww he's never had ribs before? Poor dog was deprived! lol!! Now have you noticed the difference in how they chew those compared to the marrow bones? The mouth twisting and turning? That's what will scrape the junk off the molars.

You could give one everyday if you want. The only thing you have to watch out for with beef ribs is the fat on it. The bones aren't edible and the bit of beef on it isn't any different than the boneless meat that you'd normally feed. I usually buy my beef ribs at Whole Foods and they have a few different kinds and sizes and some are loaded with fat so I just cut/slice it off. Besides making them gain weight, too much fat can give them gas or diahreah.



I've had bones lying around for weeks outside..They're clean so it's not like they'll get sick from rotting meat on it. Depends on the dog, mine gets bored with them once they're clean so I throw it away the next day.


HURRY UP AND TAKE PICS!! I soooo regret not doing this! Nobody believes me when I say those back molars were a nasty multi-color shades of green and orange. It seriously was gone within 2 week.

I don't know how good the toothpaste is at actually getting tarter OFF but it keeps the bad bacteria in check and prevents tarter. Honestly though I don't like the ingredients which is why I want to try using a powdered enzyme supplement. I was looking up the ingredients in the toothpaste and the "Special" enzymes were made from milk.

Active Ingredient(s)
Glucose oxidase, lactoperoxidase. Also Contains: Sorbitol USP/NF, purified water USP, hydrated silica, glycerine, dextrose, xanthan gum, flavor, sodium benzoate, potassium thiocyanate.


Don't use it if you don't have to. lol I *have* to because I haven't found another solution for my dog's problem which is different. I've used baking soda and the herbal toothpaste that I use on myself and it gave him gas and made him hack because ya can't really rinse a dog's mouth out.

Oh..another thing to try with brushing if your dog will let you.. an eletric tooth brush. One of the cheapy $5 ones at Target.. works better and faster on my dog than a regular brush.

I doubt there's any holistic dental vets..nothing you can really do "holistically" for most dental issues....and anything you try you're finding out for free on the internet. Some regular vets and maybe dentals will do a cleaning without anesteisa and that's probably about as holistic as you'll get. Dental vets usually won't approve of raw feeding either because there's always the few dogs that do break teeth on bones.

Ok, I'll try taking pics tomorrow. He's still chomping away at the rib bone..it's clean as they can get I think Oh..my poor deprived dog and I love him so much!! Oh well..learn, learn, learn..is my lesson of the day:0

Oh, that's a great idea..the cheap electric or is it battery toothbrush..I'll look for one of those at the drug store or Target tomorrow. My dog is only 9 lbs. so it's ok to give him a daily rib bone for now? I don't think they have much fat on them, but they seem rather meaty for beef ribs. Have you tried port ribs also? Or short ribs? He doesn't or hasn't ever buried a bone, and I do childcare so that would be out of the question for now anyway.

I am going to make some peppermint, wintermint essential oils and rose if I have some left up with a pulverized magnesium oxide tablet or 2 to see if I can make a descent paste and give that a try. I'll only put in 1 or 2 drops of the essential oils to start with as they are potent.

I feel like I'm getting somewhere now..where I don't know exactly, but I have one happy little dog tonight

Love,
Prism

My dog who has been eating raw foods since March 2002. First he started with BARF patties and raw beef 2 x a day, with some raw chicken bone only on occasions, once I learned to give them to him. Then I switched him to Natures patties and the raw beef, and raw chicken thighs and or wings on occasion. I also gave him rawhide chew bones and some chew bones from the store that are softer which he enjoys. Recently I started making my own dog food recipe, but have since gone to all raw meat and organ meats with no other supplementing foods, except the raw bones on occasion. You can see his teeth are in terrible shape, and he has 2 back teeth that are loose, one on each side, with at least one looking infected. He also may have a gum infection or problem it looks like.

After some research and guidance, I've added in raw rib bones to his daily diet. He had his first one yesterday..and was ecstatic over it. I had to removed the very cleaned bone around mid-night so we could both get some sleep Today, he got a new beef rib bone after his usual feeding which is down to once a day, and has been working on the bone all day. I'll be doing some other teeth cleaning things, and getting him to a dental visit asap. He's 8 and 1/2 yrs. old. These are before pics, so I can compare later.

Cushy age 8 and 1/2 years old.











[www.flickr.com]
For better look and larger pics see link just above.
Love,
Prism



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2007 03:37AM by Prism.

I took a good look again at my dog's teeth after first getting him to drop the rib bone..he's so attached to it.

While looking them over the tarter and icky looking stuff that was at gum line of the loose back tooth on the right side came readily off while I just took my fingernail and kind of picked it out..ewwww..well, I didn't know it would do that. I put some of the Iodine mixed with water on it with an eye dropper. His teeth already are looking cleaner after his 3rd day with a new beef rib bone that he gets after his one meal of the day which is around noon.

I also took a pic of the cleaned bone which he actually quit chewing on last night to sleep. So, tomorrow I'll take a pic of a rib bone before he gets to it. I'll post those. I have just been throwing away the cleaned rib bones the next day.

Love,
Prism

Thanks to Bryan for letting this stay as long as it did on the main forum..and for moving it here to the pet forum where it should be.

Love,
Prism

prism,

im quite curious to see the before rib bone pic.
being vegan, i feel totally lost at the meat counter
and never sure what to order for my carnivore friend.

excuse my ignorance, but how exactly do you ask for it?
"rib bone"?? and how much does it cost?

i know she misses the marrow and knuckle bones that
i quit buying after hearing they chip the teeth, so
i'd love to get her some ribs.

btw, cushy is about the cutest thing ever!!!
wishing her a great dental 08

Cushy is a boy dog..but he is sooo cute he looks like a girl, but he definitely acts like a guy. He has to have his honey bunny to do his humpty dumpty thing with And yes, he's be neutered since before he was 1 yrs. old.

I will take a pic today before giving him the raw rib bone, and I'll take a pic of the rack also. It's a rack of rib bones and I cut off each one. Here's a terrific yahoo group I recently found..you'll love this. Raw feeding at the yahoo groups. If you need the link to it let me know.

I bought the rack of ribs from the counter meat case at my local Albertsons store.
I got I think like 7 ribs out of the rack and they are big, about half as long as my dog is and you keep the meat and gristle on, and depending on the fat content of both dog and bone, you may want to cut away some of the white fat part first depending on how often he is getting bones. The cost was $6.00 for the whole thing.

Love,
Prism



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2007 07:31PM by Prism.

thanks for the helpful info on the ribs.

i think the yahoo group you mentioned is the same one i
referred you to on your other thread. lol. its really
great.

i was doing raw processed medallions (primal brand) til
i found those yahoo raw feeders groups. and now we do the
prey model. my friend is literally ecstatic now. sometimes
its more convienient to give her a medallion, and she
gives me such a sad look.

Are you fruitgirl on that yahoo group? I'm Prism..so if you see me, say hi! Too funny

Love,
Prism

i am fruitgirl there too, yes. so sorry i assumed your
friend is a girl. anyway he looks incredibly adorable
and im so glad for his newfound joy with the ribs.

the grocery was crazy today, couldn't deal with the
meat dept.

but i did manage to get yet another bag of my fav
persimmons. i keep thinking its the last one, but
they keep coming.

after three months on the yahoo raw feeder list, i switched
to the raw chat list. the info started recycling and it was
alot of email. but hope you stay there awhile, they are soooo
helpful. rawchat is great too.

fruitgirl
also in ca, but north

Oh my gosh..you are KIDDING, because I just joined that one too, about a half hour ago! I like lists that are less restrictive, and don't need a mod to read it all and then post. I thought the raw chat would be fun and be more diverse.

Love,
Prism

prism,

see if you can read the past week in the raw chat
group. someone posed almost the same question as yours.

at first i thought it was you.

I'm awaiting approval and I can't access the messages. I am getting confused by people at the raw feeding group though. Seems like even there you get conflicting info. First I heard here to feed raw rib bones, and then there also. Now someone called Sandee Lee says they are not the best thing to feed you dog to clean his teeth in response to someone else about raw rib bones.

Like usual (as in my Iodine, thyroid, cleanses, digestion, colon issues etc) I'm going to do my own research so I have my own data so I can then make my own assessment. At least I had some new information from this website about the raw rib bones..and to me they look like they should work. I took some more pics tonight of his teeth, so I can keep a photo journal of the progress or lack of.

You'd think this would be simple especially at the raw feeding yahoo group..but I guess there are as many opinions as there are people on there. I wonder what Sandee's dogs teeth look like?

Also, how does one make a photo album on the raw feeding yahoo group? I've had no response to my request there from any moderator.

Love,
Prism