Culturally speaking, people percieve meat-eating as 'macho'. I think this line of thinking is extremely dumb, but I know many people who percieve vegetarian/vegan men as being less masculine. Some family members would scoff at them. In women it seems to be more accepted. This obviously depends on the type of people you are dealing with, but I am speaking at a very general societal level. Women have a long and deep history of inequality and although women have made great strides, we haven't shaken off the grounds of historical precendent completely. I think it is ironic that the culture that has given more power to men, have also boxed men in, giving woman greater freedom of expression at many levels. I am sort of rambling, but do you think there is truth to this assessment?

I grew up in San Francisco and so keep this in mind with my response. I think a lot of your observations are probably pretty right on, but they haven't been my experience as a woman. My experience has been seeing the gamut of personalities, cultures with not too many differences in gender or pitting one gender against the other. Again it could be I'm not the norm, I don't know. I don't see it with my friends either...subscribing to these beliefs about men (or women) or it impacting their everyday lives very much. Maybe I have a blinder on and can't see it right now - something for me to consider.

I don't think it's either easier or harder for a man or woman to adopt the raw lifestyle. I know some ladies who are hard core meat eaters, steaks and such that would probably have a rough time. Who knows... this is all hypothetical. I think success factors for a raw vegan have more to with the individual person -- their goals and how they perceive themselves.

This may be sort of off subject, but I would deem a raw vegan guy as very masculine or closer to it than what is perceived as masculine maybe. Masculinity to me doesn't equate to being "macho", but merely a necessary opposite of being feminine. I'm not saying there aren't overly macho vegan guys...I know some. Again it's complex as both men and women also have male and female energy. There should be a balance within in order for there to be true balance without. In other words, if we're comfortable with ourselves,(men and women) will be able to have more authentic relationships with one another. If anything, I think raw veganism brings us much closer to this, because we are operating with cleaner systems & bodies (emotional, physical, spiritual, mental) and generally have broader awareness. I'm very biased of course being a raw vegan. haha. I don't think we have a good understanding of what true masculinity (or femininity) is in this culture and we still have a lot to learn.

Perhaps we're saying the same thing afterall...just seeing it through a different lens.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2008 04:01PM by rawangel.

In some cultures, I think this is true. My boyfriend is Portuguese, with a very traditional family, works a construction job with a lot of Portuguese immigrants--and he gets horribly MOCKED and RIDICULED whenever he brings something for lunch that isn't MEAT. Especially if he brings something like... mango salad.

So meat = man, especially if you work a big, sweaty MAN job in a culture that reinforces the mindset.

I also work at a steakhouse (OMGWTF), and I have noticed how suspiciously often the song "Macho Man" plays.

I know this is not the case for everyone... but it does happen in certain settings and can be an issue for some people. Part of the reason my boyfriend says he doesn't want to be vegetarian is because "everyone will think he's gay."

Edit: Just to add a thought--where the stereotype (or imagined fear of stereotype as the case may be for men) that vegan/vegetarianism is weak, woman-like, too emotional, or whatever--it would be good to transform the energy, instead, to the image of fatherly power, protecting LIFE, land, health, wellness, and sustainability for future generations to come. =)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2008 07:50PM by phantom.

No, but I think some men are easily influenced by others' perceptions of them.

Nah...I think women are just more pro-active than men!

F1

Right. I agree with F1. If anything I've seen both sexes self-medicate with poor food choices. It's a 'human' thing....and not a male/female thing....in my opinion.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Well if you want to take history into consideration, it probably has to do with the men used to go out and "hunt" or even "farm" while the woman stayed home changing diapers.

Women supposedly can only eat salads anyway because they're always "dieting". Vegetables are rabbit food and girl food.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2008 10:41PM by LikeItOrNot.

All I can say is that I used to eat alot of meat,and dont even desire it anymore.
Brian

Thanks for your insights everyone. I was just pondering this today and wondered what others think of the idea.

I think that more women than men are likely to make the choice to go vegan for health or conscious reasons. I think once vegan though, it's just as easy for a man, physiologically to be vegan as it is for a woman!

Sunflower
Raw Food Chef and Writer
Comfortably Raw
[www.comfortablyraw.com]

Some guys think their testicles will shrivel up and disappear if they go vegan.

But not the confident ones.

For others, it's more that they can't or don't want to give up certain foods, don't want to have to think about where their food comes from, don't want to have any morality associated with their food. A lot of women, surprisingly nice in other aspects but somehow deaf dumb and blind in this area, are in this category, too.

I never had such an attachment so it wasn't difficult for me.

I think that there are gender stereotypes that influence things/choices. I think that women being more proactive is a bit of that coming into play as well. I am first generation American and my family makes issues over the "manliness" of my diet. I am also a nurse and have a lotof negative feed back from co-workers and even patients. Lots of people don't think that a vegetarian, let alone a raw vegan diet, can support man-muscle.

I'm a raw vegan and work in a semi-macho environment (television cameraman, where guys like to think of themselves as cowboys...) and I take a lot of ribbing and joking and teasing, and I seem to be the default center of attention when it comes to food and eating. Who knows why. A lot of it is people just talking to fill the silence. When I eat with guys while on the road, they'll choose places like Outback Steakhouse or Longhorns, and then I'm forced to design a salad with an often bemused waitress, and she herself sometimes joins in the fun of making insta-comedy out of the "different" guy.

I don't really care, though. I enjoy hearing what the stereotypes are and what their ideas about eating vegetables could possibly mean. I'm referred to as a "hippie" or a "health nut" or I'm "artsy" or some such mindless nonsense because I eat what I want to eat. People also like to tell me I'm "depriving" myself because I don't eat what they consider treats. Some guy I work with even hinted that I'm masochistic because I wouldn't eat a morning meal of some sugary processed crap that everyone else was squealing about.

For me I just feel better when eating raw fruits and vegetables, and so I don't really give a flip what anyone thinks. Who can control the thoughts of others? I joke my way out, and often verbally give into the stereotypes. "Yeah, I'm a real sissy," I may say, "because I won't eat that sweet charred pork flesh you're choking down..."

The same holds true for yoga. Other guys question that I'm into yoga, and they may joke that I must be some kind of fairy. Yet just like the eating well thing, the yoga makes my body feel incredibly clean and strong and good. So to the comments, I say: whatever...

shane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a raw vegan and work in a semi-macho
> environment (television cameraman, where guys like
> to think of themselves as cowboys...) and I take a
> lot of ribbing and joking and teasing, and I seem
> to be the default center of attention when it
> comes to food and eating. Who knows why. A lot
> of it is people just talking to fill the silence.
> When I eat with guys while on the road, they'll
> choose places like Outback Steakhouse or
> Longhorns, and then I'm forced to design a salad
> with an often bemused waitress, and she herself
> sometimes joins in the fun of making insta-comedy
> out of the "different" guy.
>
> I don't really care, though. I enjoy hearing what
> the stereotypes are and what their ideas about
> eating vegetables could possibly mean. I'm
> referred to as a "hippie" or a "health nut" or I'm
> "artsy" or some such mindless nonsense because I
> eat what I want to eat. People also like to tell
> me I'm "depriving" myself because I don't eat what
> they consider treats. Some guy I work with even
> hinted that I'm masochistic because I wouldn't eat
> a morning meal of some sugary processed crap that
> everyone else was squealing about.
>
> For me I just feel better when eating raw fruits
> and vegetables, and so I don't really give a flip
> what anyone thinks. Who can control the thoughts
> of others? I joke my way out, and often verbally
> give into the stereotypes. "Yeah, I'm a real
> sissy," I may say, "because I won't eat that sweet
> charred pork flesh you're choking down..."
>
> The same holds true for yoga. Other guys question
> that I'm into yoga, and they may joke that I must
> be some kind of fairy. Yet just like the eating
> well thing, the yoga makes my body feel incredibly
> clean and strong and good. So to the comments, I
> say: whatever...

Gimme ten minutes with those guys!

F1

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some guys think their testicles will shrivel up
> and disappear if they go vegan.
>
> But not the confident ones.


LOL arugula... I almost choked on my water reading that.



My website: The Coconut Chronicles

shane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > When I eat with guys while on the road, they'll
> choose places like Outback Steakhouse or
> Longhorns, and then I'm forced to design a salad
> with an often bemused waitress, and she herself
> sometimes joins in the fun of making insta-comedy
> out of the "different" guy.


Bless you for even walking in the door of an Outback Steakhouse. Good lord! I would say that takes a lot of courage to do that...who's the "macho" one in that scenario? Certainly not your work buddies...I'd say it was you. Just remember geniuses are usually always misunderstood. If you still know them in 50 years, just don't say "I told you so". :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2008 05:16AM by rawangel.

Look at mainstream media/commercials. Everything is meat/BBQ, alcohol and big trucks. There is so much media reinforced stereotypes that set people up for disease. When I last ate meat, something like 11 or 12 years ago, I was trying to eat lean meat, no fatty dressings, etc. I was teased regularly even for that. Kind of funny that I was made fun of for eating vegetable soup for breakfast instead of a buttery biscuit with sausage, eggs and cheese. People now tease me and say that I eat relish for breakfast when I drink my green smoothies.

In some ways it's easier for (Western) women to be vegan than men, but in other ways it's similar. Much of the processed fare is like softcore drug-taking. The drug is subtle. These foods are engineered to taste good, and to make people feel good, and it has an impact on brain chemistry. And this is the same for both genders. Kicking the fast food habit is like kicking addiction to cigarettes or wine or weed or whatever. But we can't really blame the industry, they're giving us what we want: processed garbage that tastes good and makes us feel good and is quick and cheap and easy.

It's a trap. It's fascinating and sad. By not partaking, by not sniffing their glue, I get the comment -- "We're all gonna die anyway, so why not eat what you want, you hippie..." To which I laugh and chew my rabbit food.

I definitely think there's something to what you're saying, although it may be regional.

I live here in the south, beef and dairy country, also hunting country. I am grateful that my hubby was actually raised to love fruit and veggies - however most of his/our guy friends will LITERALLY not touch a fruit or veggie. They'll drink milk or pop, eat meat only pizza and fast food (taking any piece of lettuce or tomato off) and that's just how they live. I really do think it's partly a macho thing.

Sarah
[goingbananasblog.com]

What difference does it make?
Should we only do things that are easy?????????????????????

happyway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What difference does it make?
> Should we only do things that are
> easy?????????????????????


I don't think that's the point of the thread. No more than a hiking website didicated to speaking of the difficulties traversing parts of the Apalachian trail would be saying to not do it because it is difficult. Sometimes people wonder about these things and other times, maybe just maybe, the person is having a difficult time. Sometimes knowing that others may feel similar pressure gives a sense of comraderie and support. That's what the site is kind of for right?

happyway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What difference does it make?
> Should we only do things that are
> easy?????????????????????

Hee! Hey, you know what? It makes a difference because not everyone claims clarity about food mysteries and the eccentricities of human behavior.

shane you don't get it...yet
the question is:
"Do you think it is easier for women to be vegan than men?"
(The question is not about whether "vegan" is "good" or not.)

If it's really Worth DOING just DO it.
And it if it ain't, skip it.

There will always be reporters, biographers, poparazzi etc. following
and making up stories, and reasons, following along behind behind those who are immune to public opinion and fashion .

Nelson Mandela didn't stop to ask if it was easy, or to wait to act till the "the eccentricities of human behavior" were clear to him. Neither did anybody else who made a difference.

happyway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> shane you don't get it...yet
> the question is:
> "Do you think it is easier for women to be vegan
> than men?"
> (The question is not about whether "vegan" is
> "good" or not.)
>
> If it's really Worth DOING just DO it.
> And it if it ain't, skip it.
>
>
> Nelson Mandela didn't stop to ask if it was easy,
> or to wait to act till the "the eccentricities of
> human behavior" were clear to him. Neither did
> anybody else who made a difference.

Is there a language barrier happyway? I don't think you are reading what it seems anyone else is reading. I don't think anyone is making statements about Vegan being good or bad. I don't get this stuff:

> There will always be reporters, biographers,
> poparazzi etc. following
> and making up stories, and reasons, following
> along behind behind those who are immune to public
> opinion and fashion .

People will always have questions. Even if someone was asking if it was good or bad to be vegan ... I'm just not understanding where your odd attitude is coming from and again, doesn't seem that you're responding to what people are writing about on this thread.

Thanks for setting me straight, happyway. So what you're saying is Nelson Mandela was jailed for being a raw vegan NOT because of societal gender pressures regarding nutrition, but because it's hard to be a raw vegan?

Please set me straight if I've not gotten the point yet again because -- pssst -- I'm not as nearly as bright and smart as you are.

<<Do you think it is easier for women to be vegan than men?>>

quite frankly, yes

<<Do you think it is easier for women to be vegan than men?>>

Most definitely. If you don't have much of a social life it's a bit easier.

"the four agreements - don miguel ruiz's code for life

agreement 1
Be impeccable with your word - Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.

agreement 2
Don’t take anything personally - Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

agreement 3
Don’t make assumptions - Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

agreement 4
Always do your best - Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret."

[www.businessballs.com]

The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom (A Toltec Wisdom Book) (Hardcover) by Don Miguel Ruiz (Author)
138 pages, Publisher: Amber-Allen Publishing; 5th edition1997
ISBN-10: 1878424319

------------------------

Agreement number two would seem to imply that for those whose feelings are easily hurt everything is more difficult, and as a corollary, that it has nothing to do with gender. Agreement number one would seem to imply that sarcasm as a defense against hurt feelings is a short sighted policy. It simply shows others that one is vulnerable. There is lots of information available on non-defensive communication.
And it really does work, IMO.

------------------------

A Taoist might put it this way:

Those who expect everything to be easy will frequently find things somewhat difficult,
and
those who expect everything to be difficult will find things a little easier.

again explicitly nothing to do with gender

-----------------------

"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right."
Henry Ford

again explicitly nothing to do with gender

---------------------

"There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Shakespeare, William

(although in context the intended meaning is a little different ( [www.enotes.com] ) never-the-less the fact that it is frequently quoted shows that folks find the apparent meaning has good value.)

---------------------

All of this is hardly "rocket science", simply the 'frequently overlooked obvious'.
Almost anyone can find more quotes that are helpful.

------------------

for example this story just came in an email:


Subject: How to grow a vine


A wine grower named Giorgio called for his two sons
Anton and Vitto and told them he would have to test
each of them in order to decide who was best qualified
to take charge of the property when he retired.

The two young men were very different: Anton was
daring and mischievous, always smiling and friendly,
while his brother was taciturn and hard-working, but
entirely devoid of emotion.

The father gave them each a vine seedling and said:
"I want you to choose the place that you think has
the best conditions for your vine to grow. The one
who harvests the best grapes a few years from now
will take control of the property."

Anton was in no hurry to get started. "I have a lot
of time before I have to start looking around. A vine
grows slowly, and only yields grapes after four years
anyway."

Vitto knew that too, but he decided to find the best
place to plant his vine right away.

He planted his seedling on a parcel of land facing
south, on top of a rocky hill. Anton made fun of him,
saying: "You idiot, you chose the worst possible
location! A hilltop facing south make the leaves
shrivel and burn, and soil full of rocks won't allow
the roots to grow. You won't get any grapes from that
vine at all!"

Four years later the father once again summoned his
two sons so he could taste their fruit.

Anton's basket was filled with beautiful, juicy grapes,
while Vitto's basket held only a few small grapes.

Giorgio picked two grapes from each basket and tasted
them in silence. The ones from Anton's basket were
filled with seeds and their size was due to all the
water they contained.

"Tasteless," his father said. But when Giorgio tasted
Vitto's grapes his face lit up with pleasure. "These
grapes are small but they're bursting with flavor,"
he exclaimed. "Their juice will produce excellent wine.
This is very good work. How did you do it, my son?"

"I followed a simple principle," Vitto replied.
"Like people, vines only yield good fruit when challenged
with adversity."

.........................................................

You may sometimes wonder why you have to put up with
so many obstacles in life. But now you can understand
that problems - the things that make you work harder -
are really there to teach you.

They are the events that form your character and make
you the person you are today.

So be prepared to confront whatever Destiny places
on your path, and use it to become stronger!

(c)www.positive-club.com
.........................................................

"You learn more from a good enemy than from a good friend!"
M. de Cornouardt

-----------------------------

There is no such thing as "masculinity"; no one is "more masculine" and therefore a "better" person of their gender than anyone else. Using stupid, baseless concepts to try to make people be a certain way (or projecting onto them that they are a certain way) just because they were born with testicals is a very disgusting habit. I'm sure that boys born into an environment that does that, which is also one that is very likely to treat him with a great deal of violence, emotional abuse, infant male genital mutilation, and shaming, is going to have a difficult time recognizing his own, violated rights, let alone the rights of animals, children, etc, and will be more prone to using alcohol, meat, drugs, television, etc. to numb the remnants of emotions that were stolen from him.



Nelson Mandela betrayed his constituency by letting economic apartheid continue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2008 01:12AM by dream earth.

Awesome, Happyway! Great stuff, my friend. Thanks for putting things into perspective here!