I am getting a bit confused about fats, I guess. Right now, I use coconut oil, cod liver oil (I know it's not vegan, but it is a GREAT source of fat), hemp seeds, flax seeds and I eat a variety of nuts. How much fat is too much?

Also, do I really NEED all these fats in my diet? Which ones should I eliminate?

well I wouldn`t take cod liver oil myself as fish oil isn`t actually good, it has lots of things you don`t want to take in and plant fats are soo much better and there are some lovely vegan omega supplements available now.

If you want take a look at this article:
[www.healthscience.org]

I myself lean towards avos, nuts esp walnuts, olives, flax seeds,
I don`t think we need a lot of it. It depends though, some people can do better with lots of it and others not. If you feel good I wouldn`t worry. If you feel lethargic or unenegertic I would cut down on fat.
I was looking at pics of wild avos the other day, soooo tiny. Makes me wonder how "natural" our current fat intake is!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2006 07:34PM by vegangoddess.

You might consider replacing cod liver oil with flax seed oil. Flax seed oil is very effective and makes your skin soft & shiny.

I say if you crave something fatty, eat it, and if not, then don't force it. Fat is probably more important for winter than summer, in my opinion.

I'd definatly concur in changing the cod liver oil for flax oil. As well as the ethics, fish are often contaminated with PCBs and other nasty toxins.

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

If someone can tell me about an oil that is just as good as cod liver oil, then I will gladly change. Not trying to be argumentative or anything...I have researched oils for a while now, and have not been able to find one that is as good as cod liver oil.

Flaxseed Oil vs. Cod Liver Oil
Flax oil and other vegetable sources of omega 3 do not contain any DHA or EPA. They contain a form of omega 3 fatty acids that is not as usable by the body. Your biochemistry would need several specific metabolic enzymes (NOT digestive enzymes) in certain concentrations in order to convert any of the vegetable omega 3 to DHA and EPA. Even in ideal circumstances, only small amounts are converted.

Why do all the other raw vegans not die then because they are not eating DHA directly? A friend of mine who is a bio-chemist is certain that we can convert omega 3's from plant foods to DHA, even reccomending another friend of mine to stop taking vegan DHA suppliments because our bodies are not designed to take DHA directly, they are designed to convert omega 3's to DHA.

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

Well, will you die if you do not get enough DHA, or you will just not receive all of the health benefits if you were to get the correct amount of DHA daily? I am asking because I really don't know.

Sorry, I was being a bit dramatic there! I don't know the answer to that question either.

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

Hi Yogamama,

After being mostly raw for over a year, I found that my HDL (the good stuff) went WAY down, to about 30, as well as triglycerides and other cholesterol, due mainly to the raw foods. It's just something that happens when you eat a raw food diet. There was a study on it that I printed for my doctor, but I can't find the link. Anyway...

However, having super low HDL is not a good thing. On a bet with my doctor (he's pretty cool, I like him - not too stuffy) I was able to get my HDL back up to the 50's where it belongs with only one change to my food intake.

How? The addition daily of 2- 1,000 mg fish oil capsules.

It was painless, and you're right: fish oil has something in it that is not found in other seeds, oils, etc. Variety! That's the answer!

I use no "oils" per se, but I do include avocado, coconut water and meat, hempseed, flaxseed, various nuts, AND ONE BRAZIL NUT daily <--for selenium, a must for me since I don't get it with anything else that I eat.

Based on my average 1700 (approx) caloric intake daily, I get anywhere from 24 to 35% fat daily. I feel great. I guess this mixture works for me. Oh, I also have been taking evening primrose oil caps daily, for the EFA in there.

But I'm with you: fish oil is good as a supplement. Oh, I don't use JUST cod liver oil, but a general "fish oil" mixture.

The only other thing I learned is that if HDL is too low, a prescription grade strength of niacin will bring it up. But I'm trying to avoid prescriptions if possible unless really needed.

Good luck to you, good post.

yogamama,

We don't need concentrated fats on the raw diet. This is because most fruits and vegetables have some amount of fat in them. Most fruits and leafy greens have a perfect balance of the essential fatty acids.

Having a diet with over 20% of its calories coming from fat is a high fat diet. The Standard American Diet is 42% fat. Some transitional raw diets are as high as 60% or more.

If you want to understand what your fat intake is from a caloric perspective (percentage of weight or volume is deceptive and meaningless), enter your daily menu into a nutritional calculator like fitday or nutridiary.

As for DHA and other long chain fatty acids, the human body is more than capable of creating DHA and other necessary fatty acids from raw plant foods. It is not necessary to eat concentrated fats like oils, nuts, seeds, avocados, etc to get these fatty acids. Just eating fresh fruits and vegetables will get you enough fatty acids, assuming you are eating enough calories.

I don't know anything about HDL or DHA, but I do know we're all going to die sometime, so we might as well develop our potential for compassion by practicing and supporting nonviolence (ahimsa) while we're here.

Although most of us don't think about it too much, the fish oil business is generated through violence, and it's just another nail in the coffin for our oceans and our planet.

Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on what we do), we become what we practice.

There is no creature so low that it deserves to die to feed us. Once many years ago I pulled some mussels off a rock by the ocean, and all the mussels on the rock opened their shells and screamed as I was pulling off their buddies (true story).

My husband (who has been strict vegan for the past 20 years and vegetarian for at least 10 years before that) goes scuba diving, and some of the fish where he dives become familiar with him and play with him like little puppies.

Try thinking of that fish oil as coming from a beautiful living being who suffered and lost it's life so somebody could harvest and sell it's dead body.

With all due respect, another perspective -Ally

I've been thinking about it lately, and what if there are aliens from other planets or galaxies that are non-human but intelligent and much more technologically advanced than us?

And what if they were just like in some ways. What if they wanted to exploit the earth? What if they thought humans would be good to grow and kill and extract DNA from?

What if they had a dying race and felt they really NEEDED our DNA? Would it be so wrong of them to just take whatever they want from our ovaries, hearts, livers -- whatever? I mean, if it's okay for us to do that to another living species that has eyeballs, then wouldn't that mean they were just treating us the way we have been treating other species on our own planet and are helpless to defend themselves from us?

I'm not picking on you (or anybody) when I ask these questions. These are questions I have been asking myself, though, and that little part of me that wanted to keep eating fish is not pretty much dead now that I have thought about it in this way, so just wanted to share.

Hmm...I think I'll go post this on my blog now too.

Ally and 24 carrots...thank you for your posts. One of the reasons I did put up this post was to find out if there was another good source of fat, other than cod liver oil. What about hemp seed oil? I have heard that is pretty good for your brain. Does anyone know anything about it? I have a three year old daughter, so getting her to have the right kind of fat for her brain development is very important. I breastfed her until she was just over two years old, and now I need to make sure she continues to get the right fat for her brain. And I also want to make sure my husband and I get it. I will have to do my research on the fats that come from fruit and veggies only....

Thanks for your posts everyone.

Instead of hemp see doil, wouldn't you be getting a better bang for your buck to eat seed and all? I mean hemp seed granola and hemp seeds in salads isn't a bad idea. From what I understand they are the perfect seed.

The only oils I like to use are flax oil from a good brand (for just a T. a day) and good olive oil for when I really want to use an oil. The coconut oil gets mixed reviews. If you are really not getting too many Omega-6s in your diet the hempseed oil would be preferable to the flax oil which is low in Omega-6s.

Yogamama,

Here's a great website by a pediatrician (with 30 years of practice, graduate of Harvard Med School, raised 8 children, wife is RN, and 2 eldest children are also pediatricians). It includes a very good article titled "Brain Food".

Go to www.AskDrSears.com. Then, when you get the home page, enter Brain Food in the "Search" space top right. You will get a list of articles, with the Brain Food article at the top. Click the Brain Food article, and you get a really good article all about children and DHA and Omega 3 and Omega 6, etc.

Once you get to the article, you can go directly to the DHA and Omega info by scrolling down to "7. Feed your brain the right fats."

According to Dr. Sears, "The two F's, fish and flax, are the top brain-building foods for growing children and adults". That specifically includes the DHA content found in flax (I'd choose flax, and I agree with Luna that the more you can get foods with the whole seed the better). Dr. Sears doesn't mention hemp seed or hemp oil, but my guess is he's just not familiar with it.

In addition to the DHA and Omega, the article has lots of good information about the role of good sources of proteins, calcium, etc. in brain development, and a list of the best brain foods, including many raw vegan foods.

The article also mentions the importance of B12 in brain/neurological function, so if your child is vegan, you might keep that in mind.

Also, just a reminder that when you read about the role of calcium in brain development, don't forget sesame seeds (UNhulled). According to nutritiondata.com (info from USDA), A cup of whole milk contains 276 mg or 28% of the recommended daily allowance (RDA) of calcium for an adult. A cup of sesame seeds contains 1404 mg or 140% of the RDA for an adult!

In other words 1/4 cup of sesame seeds would give you more calcium than 1 cup of whole milk.

For a child, unhulled sesame seeds may be a bit boring to chew, and tahini is blended from HULLED sesame seeds that don't contain near as much calcium. I find that unhulled sesame seeds can blend easily with a lot of foods. It's good blended with cucumber for a salad dressing.

Almonds and figs are also good sources for calcium.

Best wishes, Yogamama (I think you're a great Mom!) -Ally



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2006 08:44PM by Ally.

It's a sad fact: LIFE EATS LIFE.

I do empathize with the statements made above about no creature giving up its life to support ours, and that we should strive to be nonviolent. It is a pure and knowledgeable path.

It's also contradictory to the facts of Life: everything on this planet is food for something else. And except for scavengers, living food sources are what is consumed.

I wish it wasn't so, but I can't change it. What is terrible is the machine-like way we humans go about our "living". It's gut-wrenching.

I, like everyone else, am trying to do the best I can with what I've got. But I'm not going to trade my health for any extreme views of the universe. If I did not eat living foods, (this is the living foods lifestyle, is it not?) I'd not be alive myself. In the scheme of things, extrapolated from the overview of space/time, I don't matter. But in the here-and-now, I'm pretty important to myself and my family. So, I gotta do what I gotta do.

But I totally respect your views, and your right to hold them. Plus you offer such interesting posts, I would be missing out if I didn't read them here!

Who knows? At some point maybe I'll switch to prescription strength niacin to keep up the HDL. At least there's an alternative, and it's all about the choices we make. I do believe that to be truth.

You are awesome people that I would be the poorer for, had I not had access to your thoughts on this board. For that, I'm thankful.

Just my two cents...

Jackie,

It's very fair to say that you are important to yourself and your family.

I googled "vegan HDL" and came up with several interesting sites regarding HDL (the "good" cholesterol) and its effects on maintaining a healthy heart. Here's a quote from a study called "Oxford Vegetarian Study" (British Medical Journal): "Oxford Vegetarian Study found that the incidence of coronary heart disease may be 24% lower in lifelong vegetarians and 57% lower in lifelong vegans than in meateaters."

Another quote, this one from an article at VeganHealth.org (not as distinguished a source as the above to be sure, but well-researched) by Jack Norris, RD called "Vegan Mortality and Disease Markers": Fish-eaters appear to have higher HDL levels than other diet groups...However, when the ratio of total cholesterol to HDL is calculated, vegans have the lowest ratio...This indicates that vegans' somewhat lower HDL is more a function of their overall cholesterol rather than an unhealthy lack of HDL cholesterol".

Kind of interesting.

Wouldn't it be great to find out that we could keep ourselves healthy and practice compassion for the other critters too? (I don't think the living fruits and veggies suffer when we eat them.)

I'm kind of going by the assumption that it's not only possible, but that in fact the more we hurt the critters, the more it comes back on us especially as we age (that old karma law). I haven't yet seen or heard of any studies determining that vegans' hearts are not as healthy as fish-eaters' hearts.

Anyway, best wishes to you and yours and appreciate your "two cents", -Ally



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2006 03:07AM by Ally.

This is a great topic for debate. And important as well. If you haven't already done so, check out this author: [www.udoerasmus.com]
Udo Edasmus has a lot to say on this matter. And I will add that he is not a fan of fish oils, simply because of the harsh processing methods used to produce them. Also, here is a link to a Q and A with Udo: [blog.healthliesexposed.com]
Be Well

my site - raw4life
my raw show! - Raw Kitchen vodcast

Lazar,

That's some amazing stuff! Thanks for posting it.

Ally

Jackie - I completely understand what you are saying. This topic is always being discussed on the Buddhist forum that I belong to. Unfortunately, there is no way around NOT killing something as we live our life. Think about how many insects you kill on your drive in to work, or wherever. And I am quite sure that 99% of the population quickly kills a mosquito that is trying to bite them, or a spider that is crawling through their house. My husband, daughter and I are very mindful of those things. We don't kill any insects.

And Ally, the fruits and veggies that we eat probably do not suffer when we eat them, but who knows really?? And what about all the insects and rodents that are killed when they produce we eat is harvested?

Anyways...that my two cents! I love reading everyones posts on this subject and it's nice that we can discuss things on this website with out attacking others personally.

Great discussion.

Ally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yogamama,
>
> Here's a great website by a pediatrician (with 30
> years of practice, graduate of Harvard Med School,
> raised 8 children, wife is RN, and 2 eldest
> children are also pediatricians). It includes a
> very good article titled "Brain Food".
>
> Go to www.AskDrSears.com. Then, when you get the
> home page, enter Brain Food in the "Search" space
> top right. You will get a list of articles, with
> the Brain Food article at the top. Click the
> Brain Food article, and you get a really good
> article all about children and DHA and Omega 3 and
> Omega 6, etc.
>
> Once you get to the article, you can go directly
> to the DHA and Omega info by scrolling down to "7.
> Feed your brain the right fats."
>
> According to Dr. Sears, "The two F's, fish and
> flax, are the top brain-building foods for growing
> children and adults". That specifically includes
> the DHA content found in flax (I'd choose flax,
> and I agree with Luna that the more you can get
> foods with the whole seed the better). Dr. Sears
> doesn't mention hemp seed or hemp oil, but my
> guess is he's just not familiar with it.
>
> In addition to the DHA and Omega, the article has
> lots of good information about the role of good
> sources of proteins, calcium, etc. in brain
> development, and a list of the best brain foods,
> including many raw vegan foods.
>
> The article also mentions the importance of B12 in
> brain/neurological function, so if your child is
> vegan, you might keep that in mind.
>
> Also, just a reminder that when you read about the
> role of calcium in brain development, don't forget
> sesame seeds (UNhulled). According to
> nutritiondata.com (info from USDA), A cup of whole
> milk contains 276 mg or 28% of the recommended
> daily allowance (RDA) of calcium for an adult. A
> cup of sesame seeds contains 1404 mg or 140% of
> the RDA for an adult!
>
> In other words 1/4 cup of sesame seeds would give
> you more calcium than 1 cup of whole milk.
>
> For a child, unhulled sesame seeds may be a bit
> boring to chew, and tahini is blended from HULLED
> sesame seeds that don't contain near as much
> calcium. I find that unhulled sesame seeds can
> blend easily with a lot of foods. It's good
> blended with cucumber for a salad dressing.
>
> Almonds and figs are also good sources for
> calcium.
>
> Best wishes, Yogamama (I think you're a great
> Mom!) -Ally

Hi Ally...thank you so much for all that information. I LOVE Dr. Sears...I will check out his site as I have not been on there in a while. And thanks so much for saying you think I am a great mom. I try to be!

Dear All,

Re Dha and fish oils, I give my kids O-MEGA-ZEN 3, according to the bumph: superior to flax or fish and derived from a micro marine algae, where the little fishies get there nutrition from. Cut out the middle man! (costs a fortune! But only needed in tiny amounts in a vegan capsule).
Made by nutru.com. I used to get it from kiki products in the Uk.

Regards Anna

Yogamama et al,

I agree Yogamama it's good to be able to have these discussions without attacking others personally. Good you brought it up because I want people to know I truly didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings in any of my previous comments. Sometimes I say things a little too impulsively, and maybe the context might not have been entirely appropriate.

You and Jackie are right about not being able to get through life without killing other stuff, and especially insects are hard (especially when they're in your house). It's good that you Yogamama and your family don't kill them.

Unfortunately, I kill centipedes if they're in the house and if I can't find a jar quick enough to catch them. The reason is that they get in our bed with us because it's warm I guess, and the wrong move can make them bite. I hate killing them, because I've gotten to like them. Once I saw a nest of the babies and I guess the Mom and Dad. They were all cuddled up together under a tarp. They're really very UNagressive.

Also, we have 2 dogs and we buy them dogfood, so how hypocritical is that!? Well, I guess the thing is to be "mindful" as you said Yogamama, and do the best we can!

-Best Wishes, Ally

PS: Still think you don't really need the cod live oil though . (Maybe try Anna67's suggestion?)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2006 12:11AM by Ally.

Just finished reading the link posted by Lazar to interview with Dr. Udo Erasmus. Wow, he's terrific!

What he said makes sense: if you don't have a good starting point (re: oils) your body can't make what it needs.

Well, since my HDL numbers are up to where they should be (per the range on the test results) maybe I am at that point where it's just maintenance now. That would be great!

Wow. All that processing. It leads back to the thought that getting it from the source is the best idea. I'll have to give this whole thing more thought.

Thanks for a very interesting discussion, everyone!

Remember folk, when trying to get the omega-3 fatty acids in balance, there are 2 ways to do it. Most people talk about taking a supplemental omega-3 rich oil, like flax or fish oil. There is another obvious way, which is to cut back on the omega-6 rich foods. Remember, what is important is balance. Rather than adding more fats to an already fat rich diet, a better way to to remove the excess fatty acids that are imbalanced.