I was accepted by WIC a few months ago. WIC (Women Infants and Children) is a program that gives vouchers to single mothers who are breastfeeding, low income families, etc. The vouchers are for milk, eggs, cheese, peanut butter, juice, infant and adult cereals, and a few other things I don;t eat. After explaining my preferences and showing evidence of allergy -vs- intolerance to dairy, I thought that an arangement had been made to change the vouchers for produce. I was given checks to be used at Farmer's markets, and was very thankful. I do not expect anything for free, but recently have gratefully accepted it, as money is non exsistant due to my refusal to abandon my son in daycare while I work.

Today, I went into the WIC office to see a counselor for monthly renewal. She said they can only issue farmers market checks once a summer. I then told her thank you for them, and I won't be using the regular checks because I won't eat it.

A bunch of flyers were pushed my way with the standard calcium, protein recommendations. I was being very polite. I didn't go on a rant or try to explain. SHe made it clear that since she had her Masters and I am a statistic, I must listen to her, and start feeding my child grains and yogurt, beans, and soon milk. She said matter-of-factly that vegan children are set up for a lifetime of complications, and will always be small and not reach full potential....She also recommended at LEAST soy, fortified cereals, lots of beans and lentils. When I said I intend to concentrate on sprouting, she said cooked lentils and beans are superior... hmmm

Listening to her was good practice for my mind, because I instantly reviewed all the opposing infomation, and reaffirmed my position on dietary needs. It also helped to inspire me: If I am going to do this, I must do it well and whole-heartedly.

She wanted to weigh us both, and I said "I'd rather not... I just dont see the need for you to have that information in your records." (Bad answer.. she raised her eyebrows, and this is where things got very uncomfortable.)

I told her that I really think it is great that they support breastfeeding, and that I was drawn to the organization because of their dedication to promoting it. and that I am searching for another way. She then went into a monologue and said things like, "our responsibility to report" "at a certain point, if the parents are not properly caring for the child.." "Intervention" "Blood tests".. .. . .

CAN A NON PROFIT AGENCY, or ANYONE REPORT A PARENT TO CPS BECAUSE OF VEGANISM.. OR BEING RAW? I know my son is thriving, he is amazing and alert, friendly and adventurous and everyone is astounded that he is only 8 months.

Say I was to have a blood test. Or my son was to have one... and the results were not what "They" wanted to see. ?? Or what if my blood is flooded with old toxins making their way out? I am following discussions here, like the recent 'Shazzies comments' thread, and paying attention to B-12 issues, 'to supplement or not to supplement" and won't stop learning and tweaking.. but geez today threw me for a loop. I am not so much upset about being treated like an unruly and pathetic welfare statistic, as I am upset about someone threatening to report me for child abuse. I don't know what to do right now.

quickly run up a list of your daily diet in fitday.com and print out your results. it will clearly show your nutrient intake and you will have a paper document "proving" that you are on top of your diet. contact an alternative dietician (a student would be cheap or free) and have them offer a second opinion (because that is what she gave you, her Opinion).
be careful, this is a sticky situation but a good learning experience about not exposing too much info about this issue. in the meantime take care, gather any reports from doctors from physicals etc that you may be able to get and be prepared with it. contact any veg or vegan associations and see if they have info to help you out.

good luck, don't stress yourself out too much. x's and o's.

they won't find toxins in blood- they never test for that.

i got WIC for a very short period, but ended up giving it all away to others in need in our neighborhood- i didn't eat any of it (carrots are nice, but i don't really like them....)

i lied.

there you go.
i'm more educated, more aware, healthier, it's easy to see that my children are phenomenal, and i lied to prevent harassment.

i tell the truth to my physician. he's more trained, more aware, and interacts with me on a deeper level. but WIC? i didn't find them convenient, or all that useful. i pointed out that the gluten-intolerance made the grains and legumes all inaccessible (all legumes are processed with grains it seems). after 3 months, i dropped out. food pantries are easier.

peace-

I am concerned that you have enough food - where are you at? Can someone help you eat?

> CAN A NON PROFIT AGENCY, or ANYONE REPORT A PARENT
> TO CPS BECAUSE OF VEGANISM.. OR BEING RAW? I know
> my son is thriving, he is amazing and alert,
> friendly and adventurous and everyone is astounded
> that he is only 8 months.

Yes. We've all seen the stories on here of people whose kids were taken because they were feeding "raw" or other family drama messes. Although those cases are usually extreme like the weirdos that were giving their newborn enemas and who had underweight kids.

Unless maybe you live in *raw friendly* Cali, you're probably better off keeping your mouth shut about what you feed your kids. Don't sit there arguing and protesting diet to someone with that kind of authority and setting up red flags so people are watching you. He's only a baby now, you will have a bigger headache when you send him to school with nothing but fruits and vegetables instead of peanut butter sandwhiches and juice boxes.

They attack the raw and vegan people harder then they attack people with fat kids. I don't think vegetarians get it as much because they still give their dairy. Sell your WIC coupons on Craigslist or something. Buy baby formula and sell it on Ebay. Or keep that stuff in your house just incase she decides to send someone over.

Did you try for foodstamps? At least you can get some real food with it. And you probably know this already..but stay away from anything with soy or you'll kill his thyroid.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2008 02:19AM by LikeItOrNot.

That is so sad that they parrot info like that, that clearly contradicts reality. Nutrition is a religion, nutritional school is a seminary and "God" is the source of all this misinformation, the meat and dairy industries. Their faith puts believers in estabished religions to shame, they don't argue their faith logically, they "pronounce the truth" and expect you to accept it.

`I would call the ACLU advise line in your nearest city, sounds fascist and `ilegal to me. most be other rights groups for avise near by



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2008 04:12AM by riverhousebill.

Duo, Most large citys and some small have acul advise lines you can call at `certian hours, make note's of everything said while its still fresh in your mind.
It upsets me when big mother or big brother try to father knows best, when we `know they are insane.
call the aclu, if you have a problem getting advise let me know and I might be
able to help.

This is just a wild guess, but what if you said your religion forbids you to eat meat/dairy or to give it to your child? WOndering if that might protect you from CPS's reach. This whole thing is insane, Good luck and do keep your cool!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2008 11:01AM by cocoa_nibs.

I used to work for WIC. They can't change the vouchers for produce, it's a federal deicision, out of their hands. The farmer's market vouchers are once a summer and there WILL be more produce offered, but not for a year--it's a change that takes awhile to set in.

The only thing raw is carrots for breastfeeding women. Otherwise, it's not worth your time. The program is what it is. If you argue over the basic set-up of the program, their hands are tied. If you don't let them take the measurements and don't listen to what they have to say, there's no point in even being there. It's a federal program backed by serious subsidies, so you can only get so much out of it. It wouldn't exist if it were just for the common good, IMO.

The blood test is for iron. If it were low, you would want to know. They wouldn't report you, they'd refer you to a doctor for follow-up. Mine was always good, even being vegan--so I wouldn't question what they consider the normal range. It should be in there.

i wouldn't let them test me at all, i'd tell that no thanks, i already have a family doctor and keep up with regular physicals there and everything is fine thankyouverymuch. that lady is intimidating and pushy, no way would i submit to being punctured for her! witch with a B, that's what i call it.

I would call and tell her. She was right and you will start eating the food she recommended. And that you got a job and will no longer need their help. And I would say thanks for setting me straight.

I would lie outta my teeth to protect myself from someone trying to call CPS and take away my child.

CPS in Washington here did not do the correct procedures with a foster/adopt child my parents had and to cover up thier mistake they hired a nanny for the baby's illigal alien father to make him look good and get custody of the child. All to cover up their mistake they made not superivsing his visits. (My parents hired a private investigator to watch him)... The child who's mother did cocaine while pregnant, and the child who my mother raised from birth till 3 years old and even breastfed. And they gave him back!!! My parents tried to sue the state..only to go bankrupt. The state covered everything up and the case workers on that case mysterously disappeared.

Do not mess around. If someone threatens to call CPS. I would take it very seriously. This is why I say to lie. I hate lying but sometimes you gotta.

Good luck.

rost0037 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I used to work for WIC. They can't change the
> vouchers for produce, it's a federal deicision,
> out of their hands.

Exactly and this is where constructive activism enters in. Bringing awareness and changing laws. "We the People" are the government. Decisions can be changed, evidenced by all of the others...civil rights, abolishment of slavery, women being able to vote, sexual harrassment protection in the workplace, etc etc etc etc.

I do live in Cali and don't have to deal with this. But being a raw foodist in the US can sometimes bring harassment and misunderstanding as we all know. Which we always glowingly say we're against in this land. I know the level of misunderstanding runs deep and it will take time to bring awareness with regard to nutrition in general. But it's no reason rawbies need to sit back and have to create decisive plans just to get food when they need to obtain general assistance. If you think about it, it's insane. Espeially when this food comes directly from the earth.

Just my opinion. :-D

Good luck Duo and baby. I think it sucks what you're experiencing and I hope the suggestions are helpful.

Wow, some scary stuff here. This is a situation when you find out what you're made of. What path feels right to you?

If your child is healthy than they can't take that child away based on poor health. I would get as much back up as I could and if they pursue it I would make as much noise as I could. I would get prepared like coco said. I would be prepared to make anyone who suggested my child's diet is unhealthy (especially compared to everyone of my neighbors) to look like morons. I might even get my child's blood tested myself so I could be confidant in my argument.

Their is support for you here whatever you decide to do. Good luck!!

the thing is that they CAN take a kid away before they prove anything at all. if they insist that the child is in danger they can do that and if they feel that a parent is being uncooperative with their suggestions it's a red flag to them. that's why i think a nutritional break down of the daily diet is such a good idea, it plainly shows that there aren't actually any nutrients being missed so they just don't have a leg to stand on. it also illustrates a commitment on the part of the parent in that they are obviously aware of nutrition and making their dietary decisions based on fact and not experimentation. it's ok to do that on ourselves but not on our kids (though so many parents get away with the mcdeath diet no questions asked!).
the thing is, no one in their office wants to end up with egg on their faces so they have to take precautions and they DO have an obligation to report parents who they think are endangering or mistreating or neglecting their children. the flip side of this is that they also don't want to look like idiots interferring with a parent who is doing a great job and knows their stuff so if you can show them this with some data and some techy talk they will most likely back right off.

you know they came to see me after baby girl was born because i hadn't gone to hospital or had a midwife or had much prenatal interferance (i believe they refer to that as "care". makes me laugh.) but i know what i'm doing and i sure can sound like it too! the ladies thanked me for my time and buggered off. i'm no fool man, if you want to go against the grain it serves you well to have some back up.

What else is there to expect with the government funded wic program. The nurses there are very sure the milk products are the very best thing for a child and have no knowedge of alternatives to this.
If the c.p.s. were to come knocking at your door you do not have to let them in and you do not have to allow them anything concerning your child.

On the up side if they were to come in to your house and have a talk with you perhaps they can help guide you to get some food stamps and other help?

Personally I would lie to the wck person to aleviate any concern on her part. How rediculous to compare cooked lentals with sprouted but the wic people are like robots.

I really hope you can get some food though I live in Washington are you close to me??
Pam

It is so sad that people are so completely misinformed about nutrition. And of course they are very untrustful of the things they don't know, so you immediately become a suspect to them.

I would have to agree, you won't be able to argue and win anyone over to your point of view on this, they just don't have the knowledge to understand what you are trying to say.

I hope you have other options for obtaining better foods for yourself and your kids, because I don't think you will have any luck with this program. Please keep us posted that you are doing ok.

I agree with coco, if you have time, print off a day's food info from a nutritional program so you can show that you are meeting your needs and have it handy in case you need it. Even if they don't understand your views, at least they will see that you are doing this with some thought to good health and not some crazy crash diet that is ruining your health.

Sapphire

It's really not worth trying to prove your diet is better. They will do what they want. CPS will do what they want. You cannot fight them or prove your way is better. We just don't have a government that runs the way it should. Thank you republicans.

<<"this is a situation where you find out what you're made of. What path feels right for you?">>

yes. this is scary for me. The path that feels right is the one I don't think I am ready for. I question my emotional stability. Am I capable of being an activist? I don't have experience or credentials. I don't seem to regurgetate eloquently. But I certainly DO wish to see this lifestyle out from behind closed doors. For the sake of my son and his world, I ache to be involved.

So lying or pretending to be compliant.? This is the very best choice, the safe choice, the obvious choice.. and it feels so cowardly, so wrong at once. The fact that I put myself in front of this organization for examination, is one I cannot change. yes, it was a learning lesson.

The woman from WIC has scheduled a review in one month. At this time, I feel it would be in my best interest to attend, and to not refuse checks provided. I plan on saying what she needs to hear, simply because she does work for WIC, and I did come to them.

I DO live in California, in the very alternative Nevada County. So I suppose I am fortunate. She had possibly heard of vegan or raw, so the shock factor wasn't there.

As for the food. A part of myself really needs this challenge, it is awakening an ancient survival mode.

ACLU: again: am I ready to be an activist? Would contacting them be a preventative measure, in case CPS was called? Or would it mean putting myself and son up for further review.?

Tomorrow I will post a call to VEGAN MOTHERS around town; form a group or find an exsisting one. My RAW MEETUP flyers got one response.

zella, thank you for your words. I respect your suggestions to take this seriously. and am so sorry for your parents' loss.

Duo, I agree with the warnings. We have read on this forum of many raw foodists whose children were take away and put into foster care.

In fact, one doesn't even need to be a raw foodist to have one's children taken away, look at the Texas polygamy incident where an impersonator not even belonging to the group called in and pretended to be an underage wife. All the children were taken from their mothers. Even a legally aged pregnant married woman was taken into custody.

We cannot even home school our children in the US without the government getting involved. We are no longer living in a free country. Watch your back as any excuse to break up the family unit will do.

Good luck. Therese

I would just let it go. Some chose to stir up things and try to get the media involved and what not..but this is about you and your child, I would not question what WIC has to offer.

You do not have to report to WIC or anybody unless you are to take advantage of their program. If you don't like the program anyways, again, I would not bother. You don't have to prove anything to anybody. If you're afraid of them, just don't go back there. I'd rather find ways to afford my standard of food than fighting with people. In the end, it will save you a lot of unnecessary emotional pain..
Good luck!

rawangel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rost0037 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I used to work for WIC. They can't change the
> > vouchers for produce, it's a federal deicision,
> > out of their hands.
>
> Exactly and this is where constructive activism
> enters in. Bringing awareness and changing laws.


Yup. The only reason they are going to start offering produce soon (during the whole year) is because people have been pushing for it for years...it's a lot of work but you can make some changes.

facilitating change is a very noble effort BUT not when it involves risking your children. i would get yourselves safe, free and clear of this situation and then proceed with action. no need to make a martyr of yourself.

Making a martyr of yourself is fine but your job as a parent is to protect your children. I would never make that decision for my child.

I think as a taxpayer we should all be fighting for these in need children being given fruit with OUR money. I think We should have a petition to get fresh produce be added to WIC, since it is our program!!! Any one know how to organize something like that?


It pisses me off that I am paying the salary of that ignorant B----. If she is going to be giving nutrition advice she should be educated first, even if she has to educate herself the way we all did. Did she even look healthy herself? That is the first thing I like to point out to people who question my diet while they are bloated and on meds.

Government programs just seem to suck!!! What are WE gonna do about it??

This is so sad. I really feel for you and everyone with children here.

Recently, someone I know was talking about an acquaintance who has a almost newborn (couple of months old) and the baby apparently has "colic." The mother is breastfeeding. The father said, in response to someone's concerned questions, "No, she [the mother[ hasn't changed her diet."

That's too bad! Because the mother eats the worst SAD diet you can imagine. Disgusting, chemical and fast food, nonstop. She's obese due to her horrible SAD diet and lack of exercise.

And people here have to worry about government interference.

Wouldn't it be great if the government could (would?) actually help people?

Sending love,


Lee

"May all beings be happy."

[www.dhamma.org]

Duo,
I hope things work out OK for you. I am no defender of lying, but it seems the best tactic here. And you won't really be lying, just, um, prevaricating. Like, not volunteering stuff if not asked, etc. May I also suggest that it should be left to those of us who are childless to become activists in behalf of our fellow veggies/vegans/raw foodists? I'm not saying we should all storm the ramparts of WIC tomorrow. I just mean . . . the ones with children have everything to lose; we don't.

Just because somthing is legal doe's not mean that it is constitutional.
I thnik first thing is to talk to a lawyer, So many agencys are outside the law.
get a friend to go to wic, get their policys in paper, that is public info.
research the facts, and you just might find out you have a good case.
Court is the best place to take on idiots providing you have a case.
My best friends sued the FBI after many years of research, and were awarded the ``largest payout in US history by those ilegal fascist.
They are ilegal, and imoral, fight on, be careful.
resist, obey little, investigate, EXPOSE!
The only way to change wics policys may be in a courtroom.

There is no way that I would ever take the risk of losing my children when dealing with agencies that are not of like-mind, and who have the power to take them away from me on a whim. I would just tell them what they want to hear and draw their attention away from myself and my family.

i would lie up the wazzoo
and i am not a liar but i`ll be damned if i was to lose my kids by protecting them from the pains of the sad world

this world is pathetic

really

child protection services

for not feeding your kid trash?

wow

disgusting