Supplements
Posted by:
Stormyone66
()
Date: December 21, 2006 08:57PM Hello everyone,
I'm not new to raw, but I've fallen off the proverbial path pretty much every year. I have the willpower of a creampuff, and frankly I'm gonna start looking like one (and feeling like one) if I don't toughen up and deal with the first 30 days of the sucky detox period. Anyway, I've revisted my old raw guru website favorites..Dave Wolfe, Paul Nisson, Shazzie, blah, blah...and I've noticed they are all pushing supplements. That leads me to believe that one cannot survive on all raw without shoving a pill in there here and there. Unfortunately, I've never been on this diet for more than 3 mos. but can't seem to get the idea out of my head that it's the right one. Anyway, just want to know if there are any longer terms raw foodies here that have thrived without the aid of the supplements. Guess this is kind of the last of the worries that seems to have a hold on me...well, other than my lousy will power Thanks for your help! Shannon Re: Supplements
Posted by:
arugula
()
Date: December 21, 2006 09:19PM You do need B12 and D. These are dirt cheap, or free, depending on your source and scruples.
But the rest of it: they are just trying to make a buck. Re: Supplements
Posted by:
Bryan
()
Date: December 22, 2006 03:17AM Shannon,
If you are interested in a raw diet that does not require supplements, check out the 80/10/10 diet. You can get this book on Dr Doug Graham's website foodnsport.com. I have been eating this diet for the last 4 years, and I feel great, and I don't take supplements or superfoods. All I eat you can buy at any organic supermarket in the produce section (except for durian, which you have to get at an Asian market). Re: Supplements
Posted by:
arugula
()
Date: December 22, 2006 09:34AM "Dr." Graham gets a B12 injection from a real doctor when he develops symptoms. You can ask him about this. Re: Supplements
Posted by:
Bryan
()
Date: December 22, 2006 09:58AM Not anymore. Not since he developed 80/10/10. You can ask him about this too
The occurance of B12 deficiency in vegans (in terms of percentages) is no different that the non-vegan population. This must mean the dietary b12 is not a consideration to whether one becomes deficient since the problem stems from malabsorption of b12. What is true is that certain raw diets are more likely to result in b12 absorption problems. To discover which of these diets have this issue, just see if the diet proponent recommends b12 supplementation as part of the diet. Dr Graham is a real doctor. He is not a medical doctor, which make sense since he doesn't use medicines. He is (or was) a licensed chiropractor, and in our society, we call them doctors. A dentist is not a medical doctor either, but do you omit the Dr title when you address your dentist? I've done lots of things in my past for my health that I would not recommend to other people. I did the Arise and Shine cleanse, which I thought was a great idea at the time, but I would not recommend it to anyone now after I have had my healing from the 80/10/10 diet. Just because Dr Graham at one time took a B12 supplement, does that mean he hasn't since figured out a way to not need that supplementation? I think not! Re: Supplements
Posted by:
Bryan
()
Date: December 22, 2006 10:01AM Experiments were done on baboons (or some other ape) removing their dietary b12, to see if they would develop b12 deficiencies. No deficiencies developed. What they did discover was that if they increased the fat intake of fat to 30% of their diet, the b12 levels did drop, though they never became deficient. Re: Supplements
Posted by:
arugula
()
Date: December 22, 2006 10:25AM Bryan, can you please provide references? AFAIK Doug Grahmam does not actually read papers so I am not sure where this is coming from.
Baboons do indeed develop B12 deficiences when their diets are deficient. These deficiences may be partially masked by high folate intakes. Re: Supplements
Posted by:
Bryan
()
Date: December 22, 2006 07:38PM Here are the baboon references and various B12 references and notes
Re: Supplements
Posted by:
Bryan
()
Date: December 22, 2006 07:42PM arugula,
The 80/10/10 Diet book has 9 pages of references and notes in a very small font, for a total of 82 references/footnotes. If you read the book, you will see that his material does include published research. Re: Supplements
Posted by:
arugula
()
Date: December 22, 2006 07:56PM >1) It's impossible to cause a B12 deficiency in animals (primate especially) , even when they're fed for several years in a purified diet without B12
Siddons has indeed performed studies causing B12 deficiency in baboons merely by failing to provide adequate B12. But it's probably irrelevant: his studies were old, performed in the 70s and he did not use the more accurate MMA assays that are used today. High folate intake can mask a B12 deficiency. In fact we learned it from his experiments. 2) It's possible to lower the level of B12 in chimps and other animals fed in a purified diet without B12 sources when they're injected with ampicillin and other antibiotics Yes, this is true. But irrelevant. 3) Studied vegetarian men have more hemoglobin than meat eaters, and vegan had even more than vegetarian as they had lower values for erythrocyte and higher values for corpuscular volume. No ref provided for this, irrelevant to the bigger issue of B12 deficiency. 4) No serious study in medicine literatures showed that there were B12 deficiency in non-smoker that has been vegan for more than 15 years. I think with this arbitrary 15 year qualifier you will run into trouble. I have never seen studies with such a criterion. But, most studies do exclude smokers. 5) No serious scientific studies in medicine literature showed that vegan children had lower vitamin B12 (while the wrong misleading conclusions showed this) This is not true, there are a number of studies on deficiencies in vegan children. 6) All the vegan has higher erythrocyte folate concentration and normal vitamin B12 level. No reference here. -- That's enough, I can see where this is going, nothing relevant is cited, just ancient irrelevancies and unsupported claims. Whoever put this together has ignored the mountain of more relevant information. Re: Supplements
Posted by:
Bryan
()
Date: December 23, 2006 01:41AM Shannon,
In response to your original question, when I first went raw I tried supplements like Nature's First Food. It tasted horrible, but I forced myself to drink it. That was the last supplement I used, and that was about 5 years ago. After going to a high fruit low fat diet, I felt so great that I didn't feel like I needed supplements any longer. I've been 100% raw for 5 years, so I guess its possible to go at least 5 years (based on my current experience) and feel great without supplements. Re: Supplements
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: December 23, 2006 05:26PM All supplements cause disease. Vegetables, sprouts, sea vegetables, herbs, and sauerkraut also cause disease. The only food that does not cause disease is sweet fruit, so I have decided to eat only dates, oranges, and bananas.
I once ate a supplement and it made me puke. Therefore, all supplements are toxins Jimmy Re: Supplements
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: December 23, 2006 07:17PM Mike Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > All supplements cause disease. Vegetables, > sprouts, sea vegetables, herbs, and sauerkraut > also cause disease. The only food that does not > cause disease is sweet fruit, so I have decided to > eat only dates, oranges, and bananas. > > I once ate a supplement and it made me puke. > Therefore, all supplements are toxins > > Jimmy Vegetables, sprouts cause disease? What is the evidence? Re: Supplements
Posted by:
Bryan
()
Date: December 23, 2006 07:49PM djatchi,
Mike forgot to logout out of his "Mike" account and into his "jimmyjoe" account before he wrote that last message Re: Supplements
Posted by:
Stormyone66
()
Date: December 26, 2006 03:18AM Hi Bryan...
Thanks for the input. I'm going to pick up a copy of Dr. Graham's book. Re: Supplements
Posted by:
James Smith
()
Date: December 26, 2006 04:19AM I am new to raw and, for what it's worth, I do take supplements. I do not know if I will stop in the future, but for now I do take them. I know that they are not raw and probably not even vegetarian. For anyone interested in supplements, here are excellent recommendations:
[lpi.oregonstate.edu] Also, if you do take supplements, be sure that they have been verified by a third party, such as USP: [www.usp.org] Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
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