I'm wondering how raw foodists ensure getting enough vitamin B12. It's my understanding that B12 is necessary for health but is found in dairy products, eggs, and many fortified foods that raw foodists don't eat.

We're all either coprophagic, taking supplements, partaking of unmentionable personal practices with others, cheating, or engaging in very risky behavior.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2007 10:51PM by arugula.

curious,

Check out this article called Rethinking & Clarifying the B12 Issue.

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> curious,
>
> Check out this article called Rethinking &
> Clarifying the B12 Issue.

Very good perspective. But if there is no b12 deficiencie how do we explain all the cases that have been cured with b12 supplements ? [www.veganhealth.org]

djatchi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bryan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > curious,
> >
> > Check out this article called Rethinking &
> > Clarifying the B12 Issue.
>
> Very good perspective. But if there is no b12
> deficiencie how do we explain all the cases that
> have been cured with b12 supplements ?
> [www.veganhealth.org]


Furthermore, if the B12 in supplements and other sources other than animal products is unusable by our bodies (as many suggest), how is it that B12 supplementation has cured many deficency problems?

Phil.

--------------------------------------------------

"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Chinese Proverb)

I guess after reading the article Rethinking & Clarifying the B12 Issue that Bryan posted it answers a lot of my question above.

In the other article from veganhealth.org it does not appear to refer to any Raw vegans. Since cooked food and processed food is handled more by the small intestine, it seems that vegans who follow a completely or high percentage cooked diet may be more at risk than raw vegans, and of course cooking would destroy any B12 bacteria on the food.
Since B12 can be made when fiber is broken down in the large intestine, it is important to eat a good quantity of foods that have usable fiber, as we know a lot of the fiber in cooked food becomes unrecognizable to the body.

Jono posted a very interesting article a while back about fiber on one of my posts, you can find the link here: [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Phil.

--------------------------------------------------

"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Chinese Proverb)

Hi,
1.B12 supposedly does not exist/ is being produced by the bacteria in our body.. That's what i heard.
2.Sufficient ammounts of B12 for a healthy living had bean measured even in apples and many other fruit, and vegetables/seeds if eaten in raw/soaked form
3.There is a tube connecting our large intestine with liver allowing for reabsorbtion of vitamines, and other elements.

If one is not loosing/wasting his/hers "supply" od B12/ any other vitamines or amino acids, needed quantities to be healthy and feel strong diminish even to 1/5 of regular cooked diet (be it vegan or SAD)
That'd been taken from my life/experience with cooked/vegan diet vs. raw.

And, as always with(in) nature.. it's not about how much you supply your body with, it's: how much of it are you loosing and WHY.

"greatest dangers" to our body are besides parasites is internal bacterial flora.
So, greatest "Destroyer" of our B12 supples is: REFINED SUGAR and fats.
In order to brake down and absorb them body must use large quantity of B group vitamines and water(amongs other).

Suffice to say: acid forming in our bodies from eating and processing quantities of sugar, fats, and/or other foods in concentration not found in nature damages our internal microflora and creates conditions for parasite flora to grow, thus destroying "B12", to say at least. Ruining our health.

greetings., and: LIVE WITH PASSION (..fruit)!
Raf.

The scientific evidence that supplementation is needed for vegan is overwhelming.

If somebody want us to believe that b12 is not needed then there should be a scientific study to back up that statement not just words.

Besides there is not a SINGLE LONG LIVING vegan (20 years or more) without supplementation. Storm is no longer the case he is having some problems.

djatchi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The scientific evidence that supplementation is
> needed for vegan is overwhelming.
>
> If somebody want us to believe that b12 is not
> needed then there should be a scientific study to
> back up that statement not just words.
>
> Besides there is not a SINGLE LONG LIVING vegan
> (20 years or more) without supplementation. Storm
> is no longer the case he is having some problems.


If you spend some time on the internet looking at some studies you will find that the scientific evidence that supplementation is
needed for ANYONE is overwhelming.
There seem to be as many meat eaters that are deficient in this nutrient as anyone else.

I think B12 is needed, I think as mentioned by Witarianin, an important key is to figure out where a person is loosing it and why as well as getting a small amount from another source to supplement the "normal amount of loss" which is generally tiny.

I am not sure about your last statement, I think there may be some Vegans who haven't supplemented B12 for more than 20 years. I would think that the deficency rate would be higher if this was the case.

Phil.

--------------------------------------------------

"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Chinese Proverb)

An interesting article explaining forms of B12 deficency.
[www.aafp.org]

Phil.

--------------------------------------------------

"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it" (Chinese Proverb)

Anyone who thinks that raw vegans are different or remains skeptical needs to read these.
[www.ajcn.org]
[www.ajcn.org]

No one said here that "WE" are different..
Yet we differ in what is inside of our bodies, and how much vitamines, and cells we are loosing to parasites, bacteria, and acid that dissolves our veins and blood cells from inside. All taht from too concentrated refined cooked foods. With that respect cooked or fried soya is no better than meat. It acidifies our blood creating constant rotting, acidic environment, that paralyzes our immune system and gives no choice. Either remove acid (dissolve calcium from bones) from blood or die. Acid scale ranges from 0 to 14, and human blood normal working condition is alcaline: 7,365. ONE !!! 1 point on that scale toward acidity is enough to die. this is why our body WILL Sacrifice ALL its resources to protect brain from caustic acid, which would paralyze ANY living organism.

What do You think is the main characteristic od snake's venom, or spiders...
all it needs to do is to paralyze brain and destroy bloodstream. When red blood cells are in caustic environment, they are BURNED and are falling apart, Before they can supply our body with either oxygen(anemia) or B12.

So YES We ARE Different, yet same chemical laws are in effect for All of Us, as are for animals, or any other living cells, organism(nature) apply.

:arugula, Have You read article that Bryan Suggested? It seems that almost 20 years later(your link about B12) science did go forward, with better equipment and techniques of researching..
Not long ago "we" have crossed point of being able to measure ammounts of B12 vitamine in apples.., which not long ago has been stated by researchers and medicine that NO B12 was in Any Fruits..
and since we need(SAD people or Raw(happy) VERY Little of B12 to stay healthy, that main concerns should be: WHAT Causes to loose vitamines and other supplies Human body NEEDS To stay healthy.
Rotting of undigested concentrated refined food:fried soya, potatoes, cakes, bars, bread is an OBVIOUS Fact. Body removes acid when Intestine is blocked, through sweat, breath, urine.. skin. THAT's Why people, stink, why after eating meat meal, and drinking cofee several hours later we have stomach burns, and skin is being clogged by fat cells which our body is trapping acid and removes it away from healthy cells.
This can develop bacteria and mucus in our lymphatic system, which can paralyse / Our health,keep down our energy, and disease in body 3 months, where "usually" it takes "only" 5 days to cure..

Rotting food creates all the above: it rotts because our body cannot digest/assimilate it, there is simply TO Much of it, TO Concentratred, and Through cooking and refining TO Much of it is Junk, Dead aminoacids, proteins, vitamins, sugars that we put to stomach.

Cheers!

Free, Open source.Healthy
F.E.A.R. is
an acronym that stands for, False Evidence Appearing Real
F.A.I.T.H. - the First Attribute IN Thoughtful
Health

Witarian, yes, I have read Bryan's article. He has posted it before. It has references that are older. But it also makes many unsupported statements. The newer lit is supportive of the links I provided. Did you read them?

What are your MMA levels? Since you are so certain that your B12 level is adequate, have you proved it to yourself?

>Rotting food creates all the above: it rotts because our body cannot digest/assimilate it

Right, so what about the obesity problem? How do these people gain weight? And how do you explain the increases in plasma lipids, markers, etc. when people who eat cooked food high in a particular nutrient?

It is necessary for vegans to supplement with B12 because there isn't much B12 in vegetables. B12 if formed when by bacterial action on cobalt. I do not know the specifics and my previous statement is VERY general. In certain websites i've read that some fields can be so devoid of cobalt that even the ruminants grazing there will develop a B12 deficiency.
So yes, DEFINITELY SUPPLEMENT WITH B12.

Also the best form to take is methylcobalamin. Cyanocobalamin is the worst. Hydroxocobalamin is denatured like cyanocobalamin so it is hard for the body to use. It does bond to cyanide to form cyanocobalamin and then is excreted by the body so it has some detoxing use.

>
> Right, so what about the obesity problem? How do
> these people gain weight? And how do you explain
> the increases in plasma lipids, markers, etc. when
> people who eat cooked food high in a particular
> nutrient?


"In a land not far away, there was a worker who carried boxes out and into a factory. The factory was slim and efficient because the worker only carried good raw material, in and out. It carried in 3 boxes and carried out 3 boxes, every day. It was a very happy worker.
But one day, it started to receive heavy boxes. And many of them. So it started to carry in 6 boxes in the factory. When he did that, he was so tired he could only carry out 2 boxes that day. So now he had 4 extra boxes in the factory, smelling and standing in the way. The boxes came more and more everyday and soon the worker received 18 boxes and could only take out 1 or 2 by the end of the day. The bad boxes started to take up space in the corridors so the other workers could not go as fast as possible as they did before. The factory even needed to expand with broader and bigger size.
The strange thing about the boxes that the worker didn't have any strength to carry out because of the heaviness and amount, was that the boxes contain mostly only rotting substances and the balance of material in them was unbalanced, so there was a great amount of certain material in the whole fabric, causing havoc with the other material. Also the boxes contained strong acids, hurting the body and inviting unwanted guests as Mr P. Arasite and Miss B. Acteria."

This was the story about the worker in the factory.

arugula:
> The newer lit is supportive of the
> links I provided. Did you read them?

Yes, and as time will allow I'll try to provide more scientific approach than the one I am using in "My" life

> What are your MMA levels? Since you are so certain
> that your B12 level is adequate, have you proved
> it to yourself?

Very interesting, thanks for caring enough to point that out to me, but could You explain to me WHAT do MMA level Prove to Me, and are indication of..?
What is the method of measuring it?
Have You/ or anybody taken under account Time of life of certain vitamins/levels of which can drop because od oxydation, and other factors, like temperature in which they are being destroyed..?

Do doctors take under consideration that vitamins "seen" in blood can be in "INORGANIC" state which makes NO Sens to give levels of, since Our body DOES NOT Assimilate it/ and it just flows through our body doing more damage than good..?
..You may as well take copper wire and cut it into a tiny little pieces into a glass of water and drink it.. if one will be "lucky enough", so it will get to a bloodstream, doctors will register a "copper level"..
SO "level" of copper will be measured and put on a scale.. Yet it will poison our body in this state.
Even plants cannot assimilate inorganic copper themselves.. they need help of a bacteria residing at their roots, which dissolves and transforms its state.: HOW?.. one may ask.. WELL..
Bacteria eats copper, and its excrements is what a plant assimilates, and in process of growing transforms into minerals of: ORGANIC State.

B12.... How about this: vitamine B12 "does not exist".. because it brakes down quickly enough(3 seconds) that trying to extract it and use as a supplement ends with "expensive urine", just what happens with MOST if not ALL of omega 3 acids in Expensive OILS. Extruded from seeds it oxides to a unusable junk, that can only be a food for growing bacteria in our body. DO I need to add "The wrong Kind"..

"Cold pressed".. We take it as method preserving ALL that can be preserved., but Unfortunately COLD has many meanings.. like: flu, 0 degrees, or 180 degrees.
And while to our body cold is 0, or even 50, to an Oil plant in mechanical process it means 180 or 240 degrees. - as opposed to a normal process od 400...

So, telling that there is any USABLE Omega acids in oil IS a *** If not a misleading at least. Just because it was in the seeds does NOT Mean it is in oil, EVEN if it is a COLD PRESSED Process.
At about 104 Degrees fahrenheit amino acids start to break down, what is the temperature for amino acids..? I'm sure Internet holds an answer for that OPEN for Anyone.
Since i have worked on a Oil Press machine You can trust Me on that: What you Get IS NOT What is on a Label. In traditional process, and stone extruding YES Lower temperature WILL Be achieved, but because of health standards such process is RARELY Used. THAN STILL temperature comes only second after Oxygen, that brakes down most vitamines,


> >Rotting food creates all the above: it rotts
> because our body cannot digest/assimilate it
>
> Right, so what about the obesity problem? How do
> these people gain weight? And how do you explain
> the increases in plasma lipids, markers, etc. when
> people who eat cooked food high in a particular
> nutrient?

Yes, that's a very good Point. And a simple one to answer.
Rotting is being "created" by parasites(bacteria,fungus) which eating undigested food "MUST" remove excrements from their tiny little "bodies": that toxic substances are Acidic, burning fluids and gases, which MUST Be removed from body:BLOOD TAKES Care of that.(a little goes out "natural way"

The question is HOW?
Answer: By trapping toxic acids in fat "cells", which than if there is to much of them to be removed by intestine, they go to a blood stream, and if that is TO congested: to our lymphatic system. And since lymph naturally is being cleaned "Back to" a bloodstream, body MUST GET RID of it ELSEHOW.: by building in between our cells. Skin, sweat of course is being used in process, so you may get fungus, or other herpes, cold sores.
So in fact AS LONG as one creates acidic environment in body: by to condensed food:soya, bread, pastas, Milk, meat : effect such as OBESITY IS NATURAL.
It's a Way of protecting our body from being dissolved by acids: by trapping them / bonding with fats.
!IMPORTANT! in order to digest amino acids, and fats, even in normal condensation/ :raw vegetables, nuts, seeds Acidic Environment Must be created in order to digest them.

So following natural tendencies of a Human body IS CRUTIAL.
Morning:5 am to 12 Alkaline environment, and from 12 to 6 pm turning to Acidic

Simple language:
1 Fruits from morning to early afternoon, since only energy is being easily digested, assimilated, and needed.
2 Veggies, nuts, seeds afternoon.
* drinking after meal is "prohibited".. , for at least 2 hours, or Once again You will turn all food into undigested matter giving food for bacteria.
* rink 20 minutes before the meal, ar eat meal containing enough water so You won't need or feel thirsty afterwards(1 glass to 3 glasses of water) or watery fruit, or veggie(cucumber, salad) will do better job by 100 fold.

Since saying that "I DO NOT supplement B12 in MY Diet" always pushes notion of somebody(wegan wegetarian, raw food) past "sanity" mark.. I WILL Not say it.
Yet I personally know a raw foodist that is on the diet with NO suplement diet for about 30 years. He lives in a "cold environment" in Europe, yet refuses to wear more than shorts and a sport shirt(no sleeves, deep cut) REGARDLESS of weather (no shoes or socks either).
If You would ask him about HIS B12 Deficiency problem, he either would give you a "LOOK" or just smiled gently and tell You (or ANYONE) to read a couple of books like: Life without parasites(G.P.Malachow), or Dr Hulda Clarcks' "The Cure for All Diseases"

Thanks for posting, and for thoughtful questions.
Raf.

Free, Open source.Healthy
F.E.A.R. is
an acronym that stands for, False Evidence Appearing Real
F.A.I.T.H. - the First Attribute IN Thoughtful
Health

:HealthyBun.. Great story.. is it Yours/ where did it came from?

I read V. Herbert's papers. A couple of interesting points. B-12 is reabsorbed and recycled in the body. It can take 20-30 years to notice a problem. He says that babies born to vegan parents have no B-12 stores, and the problems show up right away. I know that Dr Graham has a 20 month baby, and she didn't look unhealthy to me. I've seen other raw vegan babies whose parent's did not supplement nor give supplements to their child, and they looked healthy. I doubt that either of these babies will ever develop pernicious anemia (this is what all the fuss is about after all!).

I personally know vegans who have been vegan for 30 years without supplements. I guess given what V. Herbert says though, this is still too early to tell.

When someone says that dietary B-12 is necessary to prevent pernicious anemia, all it takes is 1 person who doesn't have dietary B-12 (or consuming feces) to disprove their theory, one person who is a vegan born of a vegan who should have the problem "right away", but who is not sick.

V. Herbert makes no mention of B-12 formed in the tonsilar crypt, the folds of the tongue, and the upper bronchial tree that Dr Vetrano mentions. Herbert does say that vitamins are well absorbed in the nasal mucous membranes better than in the alimentary mucous membranes. If this is the case, the upper bronchial tree is all mucous membranes.

Herbert also says that in animal products, B-12 is ubiquitous. This means B-12 is everywhere and everyplace. We are animals also.

The end-product of B-12 malabsorption is pernicious anemia. Dr Vetrano has been able to heal people with this condition without the application of B-12 supplements, but using only hygienic techniques (typically water fasting - no animal products). If the endgame can be healed without B-12 added to the diet, then perhaps the lack of dietary B-12 is not the cause of pernicious anemia, and the lack of markers in the body are only a symptom.

I don't think there is an adequate concentration of B12 in the saliva. But if you were to eat a part of your own tongue, that would be temporary solution.

I don't think of anemia as the endgame, but the neurological disturbances and cognitive impairment that can be permanent. I am also bothered by the possibility of inadequate DNA methylation.

I am glad to see that you acknowledge the body's need for B12. But I still wonder why anyone would fail to assure periodically that an adequate status exists when one makes the choice to not supplement. This should be especially true for infants of vegan mothers who do not supplement.

>In the other article from veganhealth.org it does not appear to refer to any Raw vegans.

There are two studies that I know of specifically addressing B12 status in raw vegans.

This one is abstract only, but I am pretty sure that Dr. Donaldson will be happy to send you a reprint or pdf if you ask for one. He is the research director at Hallelujah Acres, he is a fine scholar, and it seems to me that he would very much like to see more raw vegans in this world, but healthy ones! His email address is:

michael@hacres.com

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


And here is a more recent free full text article on B12 status of raw vegans:
[jn.nutrition.org]

from the full text:

"Plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations were low in 41%, marginal in 38%, and adequate in 21% of the participants. Plasma tHcy concentrations were elevated in 51% of the participants. Vitamin B-12 deficiency, defined as low plasma vitamin B-12 and elevated plasma tHcy, occurred in 38% and MCV > 96 fl in 12% of participants.

"Vitamin B-12 supplements were used on a regular basis by 12 participants (data not included in Table 4). Plasma vitamin B-12 was higher and plasma tHcy was lower in subjects taking vitamin B-12 supplements than in participants not taking supplements. The plasma concentrations were 403.3 (257.9–1285.8) pmol/L for vitamin B-12, 39.4 (29.2–43.6) nmol/L for folate, and 12.9 (9.6–16.5) µmol/L for tHcy (P < 0.001)."

"The odds ratio for having vitamin B-12 deficiency (low plasma vitamin B-12 with elevated plasma tHcy concentration) was 5.4 (95% CI 2.1–13.8) for vegan and 3.1 (95% CI 1.4–6.9) for ovo-lacto-vegetarian raw food diet adherents, with mixed raw food diet adherents as the reference. The frequency of vitamin B-12 deficiency was independent of the proportion of food consumed raw (data not shown)."

"The main predictor of plasma tHcy was the dietary intake of vitamin B-12."

"In a multiple linear regression analysis, plasma tHcy was correlated with plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations (partial r = –0.450, P < 0.001) (Fig. 1), but not with plasma folate (partial r = –0.076, P = 0.295)."

The story came from a very very very wise man: Me! I really like using picture-in-your-mind explanations. That's easier for ours patients/guests to understand me on my lectures/seminars.

Re: I am glad to see that you acknowledge the body's need for B12. But I still wonder why anyone would fail to assure periodically that an adequate status exists when one makes the choice to not supplement. This should be especially true for infants of vegan mothers who do not supplement.

While I acknowledge B-12 is a necessary vitamin, I don't see that supplementation is necessary at all. I am in total agreement with Dr Vetrano, that bacteria in our body creates sufficient B-12 for healthy raw vegans. Again, she is able to heal people with pernicious anemia without the use of supplements - simply water fasting them until their digestive systems heal again, and then maintaining a healthful lifestyle and diet.

Lack of dietary B-12 is not the cause of any illness. The cause is unhealthy lifestyle practices. Remove the unhealthy lifestyle practices, replace with with healthful practices, and health returns.

>Lack of dietary B-12 is not the cause of any illness. The cause is unhealthy lifestyle practices. Remove the unhealthy lifestyle practices, replace with with healthful practices, and health returns.

Then how do you explain reversal of symptoms when a deficiency is detected and an appropriate dose of the missing nutrient is provided?

What about the breast fed babies of raw vegan mothers? What are the unhealthy practices are those babies? If their bacteria in their bodies are doing their job, why does this problem persist?

--

Pediatr Hematol Oncol. 2007 Jan-Feb;24(1):15-21.

Nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency in hospitalized young children.

Cetinkaya F, Yildirmak Y, Kutluk G, Erdem E.

Sisli Etfal Education and Research Hospital, Istanbul, Turkey.
feyzulkaya@mynet.com

The authors sought to determine prevalence, social, economic, and dietary
patterns of young children (n = 20) identified as having vitamin B12 deficiency
anemia after admission to their hospital in the last 3 years. The diagnosis of
vitamin B12 deficiency was based on symptoms and clinical findings, findings on
peripheral blood films and bone marrow aspirates, and serum levels of vitamin
B12. The children had been exclusively breast-fed without any animal food
supplementation. Serum vitamin B12 levels were also measured in the sera of
mothers and found to be low. The authors concluded that vitamin B12 deficiency
might be an important health problem among children of mothers who do not
consume animal foods adequately.

PMID: 17130110 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Brain Dev. 2005 Dec;27(8):592-4.

Vitamin B12 deficiency in infancy as a cause of developmental regression.

Casella EB, Valente M, de Navarro JM, Kok F.

Child Neurology Unit, Pediatric Department, University of Sao Paulo Medical
School, Sao Paulo, Brazil. erasmobc@icr.hcnet.usp.br

Vitamin B12 deficiency can cause serious developmental regression, hypotonia and
cerebral atrophy in infants. We report a 6-month-old infant, with insidious
developmental regression and brain atrophy showed by CT scan, secondarily to
vitamin B12 deficiency. His mother was a strict vegetarian and the patient was
exclusively breastfed. The clinical symptoms and the brain CT were normalized
after vitamin B12 administration.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 16310594 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

J Gynecol Obstet Biol Reprod (Paris). 2005 Oct;34(6):610-2.

[Breastfeeding and vegan diet]

[Article in French]

Wagnon J, Cagnard B, Bridoux-Henno L, Tourtelier Y, Grall JY, Dabadie A.

Departement de Medecine de l'Enfant et de l'Adolescent, CHU Hopital Sud, 16,
boulevard de Bulgarie, 35056 Rennes Cedex 2.

Vegan diet in lactating women can induce vitamin B12 deficiency for their
children with risk of an impaired neurological development. A 9.5-month-old girl
presented with impaired growth and severe hypotonia. She had a macrocytic anemia
secondary to vitamin B12 deficiency. MRI showed cerebral atrophy. She was
exclusively breastfed. Her mother was also vitamin B12 deficient, secondary to a
vegan diet. She had a macrocytic anemia when discharged from the maternity.
Vegan diet is a totally inadequate regimen for pregnant and lactating women,
especially for their children. Prevention is based on screening, information and
vitamin supplementation.

Publication Types:
Case Reports
English Abstract

PMID: 16208206 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Arch Dis Child Fetal Neonatal Ed. 2005 May;90(3):F281-2.

Nutritional infantile vitamin B12 deficiency: pathobiochemical considerations in
seven patients.

Roschitz B, Plecko B, Huemer M, Biebl A, Foerster H, Sperl W.

Publication Types:
Case Reports
Letter

PMID: 15846026 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Eur J Pediatr. 2005 Apr;164(4):257-8. Epub 2005 Jan 20.

Vitamin B12 deficiency presenting as oedema in infants of vegetarian mothers.

Reghu A, Hosdurga S, Sandhu B, Spray C.

Department of Paediatric Gastroenterology, Bristol Royal Hospital for Children,
Bristol, UK. anjana_kr@yahoo.co.uk

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 15660229 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Annu Rev Nutr. 2004;24:299-326.

Vitamin B12 deficiency as a worldwide problem.

Stabler SP, Allen RH.

Division of Hematology, Department of Medicine, University of Colorado Health
Sciences Center, Denver, Colorado 80262, USA. Sally.Stabler@UCHSC.edu

Pernicious anemia is a common cause of megaloblastic anemia throughout the world
and especially in persons of European or African descent. Dietary deficiency of
vitamin B12 due to vegetarianism is increasing and causes hyperhomocysteinemia.
The breast-fed infant of a vitamin B12-deficient mother is at risk for severe
developmental abnormalities, growth failure, and anemia. Elevated methylmalonic
acid and/or total homocysteine are sensitive indicators of vitamin B12-deficient
diets and correlate with clinical abnormalities. Dietary vitamin B12 deficiency
is a severe problem in the Indian subcontinent, Mexico, Central and South
America, and selected areas in Africa. Dietary vitamin B12 deficiency is not
prevalent in Asia, except in vegetarians. Areas for research include
intermittent vitamin B12 supplement dosing and better measurements of the
bioavailability of B12 in fermented vegetarian foods and algae.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 15189123 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

J Pediatr Hematol Oncol. 2004 Apr;26(4):270-1.

Severe vitamin B12 deficiency in an infant associated with a maternal deficiency
and a strict vegetarian diet.

Weiss R, Fogelman Y, Bennett M.

Department of Family Medicine, Ha'Emek Medical Center, Afula, Israel.

The authors present a case of severe megaloblastic anemia and neurologic damage
due to vitamin B12 deficiency in a 6-month-old infant. The cause of the vitamin
deficiency was a maternal dietary deficiency because of a strict vegetarian diet
and prolonged breast-feeding. The importance of early recognition of significant
maternal vitamin B12 deficiency during pregnancy and lactation in vegetarians is
emphasized so that appropriate supplementation can be given and irreversible
neurologic damage in the infant prevented.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 15087959 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2003 Jan 31;52(4):61-4.

Neurologic impairment in children associated with maternal dietary deficiency of
cobalamin--Georgia, 2001.

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

During 2001, neurologic impairment resulting from cobalamin (vitamin B12)
deficiency was diagnosed in two children in Georgia. The children were breastfed
by mothers who followed vegetarian diets. This report summarizes the two cases
and provides guidance for health-care providers on identifying and preventing
cobalamin deficiency among breastfed infants of vegetarian mothers.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 12578322 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Arch Dis Child. 2002 Jul;87(1):75-6.

Nature and nurture in vitamin B12 deficiency.

Zschocke J, Schindler S, Hoffmann GF, Albani M.

Institute of Human Genetics, Heidelberg University, Germany.
kawahara@pedsurg.med.osaka-u.ac.jp

We report on a child in whom severe nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency was
exacerbated by a genetic impairment of the folate cycle, causing reduced CSF
concentrations of the methyl group donor 5-methyltetrahydrofolate. Some patients
with vitamin B12 deficiency may benefit from high dose folic acid
supplementation, even if plasma concentrations are high.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 12089131 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Rocz Panstw Zakl Hig. 2002;53(1):65-79.

[Vegetarian diets of breastfeeding women in the light of dietary
recommendations]

[Article in Polish]

Strucinska M.

Zaklad Zywienia, Instytut Matki i Dziecka, 01-211 Warszawa.

The literature review concerning selected nutritional and health aspects of
applying different vegetarian diets by breastfeeding women was presented. The
only two types of vegetarian diets: lactoovo- and semi-vegetarian, when properly
composed, seem to be relatively safe for mother and her child. The most
threatening vegetarian diets for lactating women are those including exclusively
products of plant origin (so called restricted diets: vegan or macrobiotic). The
results of studies performed on mothers consuming these vegetarian diets showed
deficiencies in: vitamin B12 and vitamin D (in mothers and their infants) and
calcium (only in lactating women). The low intake of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)
was also characteristic in this group. Additionally the endogenous metabolism of
DHA is inhibited due to high proportion of linoleic vs. linolenic acid intake.
It considered that lactating women on vegetarian diet should have a greater
nutritional knowledge in order to avoid deficiencies which would adversely
affect mother's and her child's health.

Publication Types:
English Abstract
Review

PMID: 12053485 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Cas Lek Cesk. 2001 Nov 22;140(23):732-5.

[Metabolic complications and neurologic manifestations of vitamin B12 deficiency
in children of vegetarian mothers]

[Article in Czech]

Smolka V, Bekarek V, Hlidkova E, Bucil J, Mayerova D, Skopkova Z, Adam T, Hruba
E, Kozich V, Buriankova L, Saligova J, Buncova M, Zeman J.

Detska klinika LF UP a FN, Olomouc. smolkav@fnol.cz

BACKGROUND: Serious hematological, metabolic and neurological complications
owing to the nutritional deficiency of vitamin B12 may occur in infants of
mothers on a strict vegetarian diet. METHODS AND RESULTS: The mother of the
first child was a strict vegetarian. She had an elevated urinary methylmalonic
acid level and a low concentration of serum vitamin B12. Her 13-month-old
daughter was exclusively breast-fed until the age of 9 month and then she was
fed only vegetables. Physical examination revealed psychomotoric retardation,
apathy, muscular hypotonia, abnormal movements and failure to thrive. Laboratory
analysis showed a megaloblastic anaemia, a low level of vitamin B12 and
methylmalonic aciduria. MRI of the brain revealed diffuse frontotemporoparietal
atrophy and retardation of myelination. After treatment with vitamin B12
supplements, abnormal movements disappeared and development improved, but a mild
generalised hypotonia continued. A cranial MRI 9 months after treatment still
showed signs of retardation of myelination. The second patient, an 8 month-old
male, son of a strict vegetarian mother too, was referred for investigation of
psychomotoric retardation, hypotonia, dyskinesia, failure to thrive and
microcephaly. He was breast-fed and from 6 month of age he had also received
fruit juices. Laboratory analysis revealed megaloblastic anaemia, high
methylmalonic aciduria and homocystinuria. The patient's and his mother's serum
level of vitamin B12 were low. After treatment with vitamin B12 supplements,
biochemical and metabolic markers of disease were normal but there continued a
generalised hypotonia, microcephaly and language delay. CONCLUSION: Our
observations emphasize the health complications of nutritional cobalamine
deficiency and a requirement of clinical, biochemical and metabolic monitoring
in infants within strict vegetarian families.

Publication Types:
Case Reports
English Abstract

PMID: 11787236 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Orv Hetil. 2001 Nov 18;142(46):2581-5.

[Macrocytic anemia and neurological signs due to vitamin B-12 deficiency in a
breast-fed infant of a strict vegetarian mother]

[Article in Hungarian]

Fogarasi A, Neuwirth M, Bekesi A, Bocskai E.

Neurologiai Osztaly, Magyarorszagi Reformatus Egyhaz Bethesda Gyermekkorhaza,
Budapest.

Vitamin B12 deficiency is a very rare disease of infants and young children in
Europe. Authors report a case of a 9.5-month-old infant who was exclusively
breast-fed by his vegan mother and developed serious vitamin B12 deficiency in
form of neurological regression, repetitive vomiting, drowsiness, dysphagia,
obstipation, and tremor. A few days after intramuscular vitamin substitution his
abnormal signs improved dramatically, hematological restitution was reached in
six weeks. Authors describe the hematological and neurological signs, the
diagnostic and differential-diagnostic pitfalls, therapy, prognosis, and
prevention of this condition. Beside reviewing the literature they emphasize the
importance of early recognition and intervention and the need of an appropriate
doctor-parent cooperation in this disease.

Publication Types:
English Abstract

PMID: 11770177 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

QJM. 1999 Sep;92(9):531-44.

Comment in:
QJM. 2000 Jun;93(6):387.

Vegetarian diet: panacea for modern lifestyle diseases?

Segasothy M, Phillips PA.

Department of Medicine, Northern Territory Clinical School of Medicine of
Flinders University, Alice Springs, Australia. m.segasothy@nt.gov.au

We review the beneficial and adverse effects of vegetarian diets in various
medical conditions. Soybean-protein diet, legumes, nuts and soluble fibre
significantly decrease total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol
and triglycerides. Diets rich in fibre and complex carbohydrate, and restricted
in fat, improve control of blood glucose concentration, lower insulin
requirement and aid in weight control in diabetic patients. An inverse
association has been reported between nut, fruit, vegetable and fibre
consumption, and the risk of coronary heart disease. Patients eating a
vegetarian diet, with comprehensive lifestyle changes, have had reduced
frequency, duration and severity of angina as well as regression of coronary
atherosclerosis and improved coronary perfusion. An inverse association between
fruit and vegetable consumption and stroke has been suggested. Consumption of
fruits and vegetables, especially spinach and collard green, was associated with
a lower risk of age-related ocular macular degeneration. There is an inverse
association between dietary fibre intake and incidence of colon and breast
cancer as well as prevalence of colonic diverticula and gallstones. A decreased
breast cancer risk has been associated with high intake of soy bean products.
The beneficial effects could be due to the diet (monounsaturated and
polyunsaturated fatty acids, minerals, fibre, complex carbohydrate, antioxidant
vitamins, flavanoids, folic acid and phytoestrogens) as well as the associated
healthy lifestyle in vegetarians. There are few adverse effects, mainly
increased intestinal gas production and a small risk of vitamin B12 deficiency.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 10627874 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Mov Disord. 1997 Jan;12(1):39-46.

The neurological syndrome of infantile cobalamin deficiency: developmental
regression and involuntary movements.

Grattan-Smith PJ, Wilcken B, Procopis PG, Wise GA.

Department of Paediatric Neurology, Westmead Hospital, Sydney, Australia.

Developmental regression is the presenting symptom of most infants with
cobalamin (Vitamin B12) deficiency. We present a report of three infants with
cobalamin deficiency in which the infants also developed a movement disorder. In
each case the mother was a vegetarian and the infant was exclusively breast-fed.
In two of the infants, a striking movement disorder consisting of a combination
of tremor and myoclonus particularly involving face, tongue, and pharynx
appeared 48 h after the initiation of treatment with intramuscular cobalamin.
This was associated with marked changes in plasma amino acid levels.
Paradoxically, the onset of the movement disorder coincided with overall
neurological improvement. The third infant had a persistent focal tremor, which
appeared before the commencement of treatment. The movements slowly abated
during a 3-6 week period. The presence of a movement disorder in cobalamin
deficiency has received less attention than other features, but in a mild form
is probably common. It may offer an early clue to the diagnosis before the onset
of profound neurological deterioration. The cause of the severe movement
disorder that can appear after treatment is not known.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 8990052 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Fortschr Med. 1995 Jun 10;113(16):239-42.

[Effects of a vegetarian life style on health]

[Article in German]

Ritter MM, Richter WO.

Medizinische Klinik II, Klinikum Grosshadern der Universitat Munchen.

A vegetarian diet has a positive effect on various risk factors for coronary
artery disease: these include usually lower average body weight, lower total and
LDL cholesterol levels, and lower blood pressure. In conjunction with a
generally more healthy way of life (more exercise, less alcohol and tobacco
use), vegetarians have roughly 30% reduction in overall mortality. The
prevalence of bronchial, colon and breast cancer is also lower. In particular in
its strict form (total vegetarianism or veganism), a vegetarian regimen may lead
to deficiency disorders, in particular vitamin B12 deficiency, which may occur
especially in vegetarian children, pregnant or lactating women. Overall,
however, a vegetarian regimen has a more beneficial effect on health than the
usual Central European diet.

Publication Types:
English Abstract

PMID: 7635375 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

J Pediatr. 1992 Nov;121(5 Pt 1):710-4.

Long-term neurologic consequences of nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency in
infants.

Graham SM, Arvela OM, Wise GA.

Prince of Wales Children's Hospital, Randwick, Australia.

A review of the clinical findings in six infants with nutritional vitamin B12
deficiency seen during the last 10 years was undertaken and an attempt made to
obtain long-term neurologic follow-up. There was a consistent clinical pattern
in vitamin B12-deficient infants; irritability, anorexia, and failure to thrive
were associated with marked developmental regression and poor brain growth. Two
of the four patients who qualified for long-term review had a poor intellectual
outcome. Although early response to treatment is satisfying, the long-term
consequences of nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency in infants emphasize the need
for prevention or early recognition of this syndrome.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 1432418 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Eur J Pediatr. 1991 Jan;150(3):205-8.

Maternal vegan diet causing a serious infantile neurological disorder due to
vitamin B12 deficiency.

Kuhne T, Bubl R, Baumgartner R.

University Children's Hospital Basel, Switzerland.

We present a 9-month-old exclusively breast-fed baby of a strict vegetarian
mother who had excluded all animal proteins from her diet. The patient's
symptoms included dystrophy, weakness, muscular atrophy, loss of tendon
reflexes, psychomotor regression and haematological abnormalities. Biochemical
investigations revealed severe methylmalonic aciduria and homocystinuria in the
patient, slight methylmalonic aciduria in the mother and low concentrations of
serum vitamin B12 in both patient and mother.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 2044594 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Arch Fr Pediatr. 1989 Mar;46(3):205-7.

[Severe megaloblastic anemia in 6-month-old girl breast-fed by a vegetarian
mother]

[Article in French]

Cheron G, Girot R, Zittoun J, Mouy R, Schmitz J, Rey J.

Departement de Pediatrie, Hopital des Enfants-Malades, Paris.

The case of a young girl, born to a woman who was a vegetarian for 18 years, is
presented. She had been exclusively breast-fed until the age of 6 months when a
severe anemia was discovered with an extremely low hemoglobin level (1.9 g/100
ml). Her physical growth and psychomotor development had been normal until 3
months of age. Bone marrow showed megaloblastosis and the serum B12 level was
low (45 ng/l). B12 levels were also decreased in both parents (110 and 105 ng/l)
and in the mother's milk (12 ng/l). Treatment with parenteral B12 was
successful. The importance of a careful dietetic inquiry in the case of an
infant with megaloblastic anemia is stressed and likewise, as a preventive
measure during all normal pregnancies.

Publication Types:
Case Reports
English Abstract

PMID: 2735808 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Pediatr Hematol Oncol. 1989;6(2):161-72.

Nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency in infancy: three case reports and a review
of the literature.

Doyle JJ, Langevin AM, Zipursky A.

Department of Pediatrics, Hospital for Sick Children, University of Toronto,
Ontario.

Three cases of vitamin B12 deficiency that occurred during infancy are
presented. These cases appeared to be the result of pre-existing maternal
deficiency. All three infants demonstrated evidence of neurodevelopmental delay
at presentation, and one had sustained loss of milestones and developed
involuntary motor movements. Prior to the initiation of therapy, all three
infants were anemic: one was thrombocytopenic and one pancytopenic. In all three
cases the hematologic and neurologic abnormalities were corrected with vitamin
B12 therapy. The literature is reviewed and discussed with respect to the
mechanism of the infants' vitamin B12 deficiency and neurodevelopmental
manifestations.

Publication Types:
Case Reports
Review

PMID: 2702070 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Eur J Pediatr. 1987 Mar;146(2):201-5.

Vitamin B12 and brain development.

Stollhoff K, Schulte FJ.

This is a report of a 1 1/2-year-old male with megaloblastic anaemia and a
progressive neurological disorder clinically resembling leucodystrophy. The
child was exclusively breast fed and his mother had been a strict vegetarian for
more than 4 years before the child was born. After Vitamin B12 therapy the
anaemia disappeared and the neurological condition dramatically improved.

Publication Types:
Case Reports

PMID: 3569363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

argula,

In these abstracts, they are careful to use modifiers like "may", "might", "can" as they describe the potential problems, as they are very uncertain about this, and do not want to make the blunder of saying something is so when they don't have sufficient proof.

In the case of vegan mothers, one does not know if the mother were eating adequate amount of the B-complex vitamins, which are necessary for the bacteria in the body to create B-12. Giving a supplement to a baby, and having a symptom disappear, does not mean that any healing happened. If the baby were given cyanocobalamin, this stuff is toxic and could stop symptoms because the body is trying to deal with removing the cyanide that is made as a byproduct of its metabolism.

It could be that the baby's were malnourished on B vitamins, and simply eating a few more nuts, seeds, and green vegetables could have balanced the mother's diet enough for the baby's to heal themselves.

If anyone feels strongly about the need for B-12, by all means, take it if it seems like a good idea to you. For myself, I'd rather wait and see if I need them.

If you take them but don't need them they are probably not going to kill you. But if you don't need them, you will never know what your health will be without them.

Last month I spoke with a friend. She and her husband have been 100% raw vegan for three years. Two months ago her husband was feeling weak, he had no energy, had trouble getting out of bed in the morning, and he had tingling in his fingers.

He went to a naturopathic doctor who tested him and found his B12 levels were extremely low. She had him take large amounts of B12 for a week. After two days his energy returned and he was back to normal after a week. He is now taking B12 daily.

B12 deficiency could cause permanant damage to the body's neurological system if it is not addressed immediately.

Mike

Vitamin means "vital part". Other words for the vital parts of foods are "enzymes" and "proteins" and "bacteria".

All B vitamins are in every fresh raw food that contains B vitamins. For instance, a green bean picked from an organic garden should contain all the B vitamins. After the green bean is frozen the B 12 and B 6 are destroyed. When it is cooked, all the rest of the vitamins are destroyed.

When we eat "fortified foods" laced with a few artificial B vitamins, we become deficient in the other B vitamins that are missing. Also antibiotics destroy the natural "bacteria" or enzymes that manufacture B12 in our gut.

This may explain why some people get a miracilous result from taking a B12 supplement.

Just remember, cows and horses do fine on a raw diet of grass. They get all the protein and B vitamins they need The bacteria (or enzymes) in their bodies manufacture B 12 (if they have not been taking antibiotics). Their bodies contain hundreds of pounds of healthy bone and tissue.

This is not to say we are exactly like horses and cows, but it proves there is plenty of food value in raw fresh foods.

How do peopole know that there is enough cobalt in there food for the body's bacteria to make B12? I've read reports thaty it is not that common a metal in many pastures, let alone ion earth that has been used many times to grow vegetables.

"Not long ago "we" have crossed point of being able to measure ammounts of B12 vitamine in apples"

Hi Witarianin, could you please provide a reference of that? (I simply like collecting references). Thank you kindly!

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

I read somewhere that the only apples known to contain B12 are Granny Smith because they are the least hybridized variety. However, the B12 they contain is still to small an amount ot be considered adequate for the human diet.

horses and cows are aiming for the grass and getting a whole lotta other stuff in there as well. perhaps if we chewed up dirty grass with bugs in it all day long we'd be fine with b12 as well. it just isn't as simple as all that but everyone is welcome to experiement with themselves and what they think is best. some will develop a defiency to let them know it's not quite right.