Hi,
I follow a vegan diet which is mainly comprised of fruits, vegetables, some nuts and seeds, and occasional avocadoes.
People say that a vegan diet is deficient in Cobalamin (vitamin B12) and that I should eat some fortified foods that contain vitamin B12. How do you get your vitamin B12? What is a good source of vitamin B12 in a vegan diet? What should we do to get enough vitamin B12? Do our bodies make enough Vitamin B12?
What should I do to get enough Vitamin B12?

Navid

Can you get it where the cows get it? Hmmm.... I wonder. There is a LOT of info on this subject and a lot of different ideas. I suggest researching it and then make your own decision/choice. Doing a search on this forum alone will give you a good start. Google it.

IMO the best, most comprehensive and well researched article I've seen is on The Vegan Society's website (www.vegansociety.com). You can go to the home page and click the B12 link on the right.

If you decide to take a supplement, the methylcobalamin is usually considered to be superior to the cyanocobalamin. Check the label to make sure its ingredients are animal-free.

I'm 20 years vegan and started taking a B12 supplement about 5 years ago. It's the only supplement I take.

> Can you get it where the cows get it?

Probably not, because they are ruminants with many-chambered stomachs, and their foods come back up to get chewed again. So they have access to what the bacteria in their GI tracts produce.

It's not so for us, even though we have B12 production, it is produced too low (distal) in the large intestine to be taken up in the bloodstream.

In several studies, most vegans surveyed start showing deficiencies within a few years if if they don't supplement. We don't know yet why that isn't true for all of them. Perhaps they are built differently, or perhaps they are occasionally cheating.

Kombucha is a source of B12.

Isn't B-12 for energy? If it is, most raw/living foodists (is that a word?) claim to have LOTS of energy from this way of eating. I'm confused. Any thoughts?

Joan

B12 isn't exactly for energy. It's for brain and nerve functioning. There's a B12 shot that doctors sometimes give older folks that may temporarily induce energy. But the oral dose doesn't do that - at least for me.

I always thought since I'm an animal, and animal foods are all sources of B12, then I must have B12 inside me already. I didn't know then what Arugula said about our systems not being able to access the B12. The tingling I started getting is one of the first signs of nerve damage brought about by B12 deficiency. After about a month of taking the supplement, the symptoms disappeared and have only returned when I go without the supplement for a while.

I don't know if Kombucha has been proven to have USEABLE B12.

The following is from THE VEGAN SOCIETY's article:

"Reports that B12 have been measured in a food are not enough to qualify that food as a reliable B12 source. It is difficult to distinguish true B12 from analogues that can disrupt B12 metabolism. Even if true B12 is present in a food,it may be rendered ineffective if analogues are present in comparable amounts to true B12".

The article goes on to state:

"There is only one reliable test for a true B12 source - does it consistently prevent and correct deficiency? Anyone proposing a particular food as a B12 source should be challenged to present such evidence."THERE IS ONLY ONE RELIABLE TEST FOR A TRUE B12 SOURCE - DOES IT CONSISTENTLY PREVENT AND CORRECT DEFICIENCY? ANYONE PROPOSING A PARTICULAR FOOD AS A B12 SOURCE SHOULD BE CHALLENGED TO PRESENT SUCH EVIDENCE."

Well, Berlinpathos.......?

Many vegans can be healthy for a long time without B12. As I said previously, I started taking it after 15 years vegan. My husband started it after 20 years vegan. Others are not so lucky.

People who don't take a supplement would be wise to learn the symptoms of deficiency.

Sorry. I meant to erase that part in my post above that's capitalized. It's not capitalized in the quote.

One other very important thing. According to the Vegan Society's article, infants typically show more rapid onset of B12 deficiency than adults. Symptoms include lack of energy, loss of appetite, and failure to thrive. And "Infants are more vulnerable to permanent damage than adults."

After 11 years as a vegan and 4+ years as both a high raw and a 100% raw vegan, my body became extremely B12 deficient. Your liver only holds stored B12 for 7 years. Afterwards you're on your own. Chlorella, spirulina, greens, whatever I ate was not enough to bring my B12 into healthy levels and suffred as a consequence.
I now regularly take vitamin B12 injections ( 2x monthly, used to be every week for a long time) and they literaly saved my life. B12 deficiency can cause permanent neurological damage to nerves and dementia. It's not something you want to mess around with. Get your levels checked at your doctor with a blood test. If the number you get back falls less tnat 400, you're in trouble. Less than 350, please consider injections to get your body up to speed. You want your B12 levels to be as close to 1000 as possible for optimal energy, metabolic functioning and brain function. 800 - 900 is a good range to shoot for.

Once your levels have fallen below 600, it's nearly impossible to increase them with diet alone or even sublingual B12 tablets. Injections go right into the muscles and your bloodstream bypassing the stomach's need to work so hard at extracting the vitamin it needs.

B12 is so critical to energy in the body and to bodily functions that it is the only vitamin injection covered by standard health insurance today.


i breathe in
i breathe out
peace
love
joy
Bikini

That's very informative bikini. Thank you.

I ate lots of chorella and spirulina too, and they didn't work for me either.

Would you mind giving us some specifics about your deficiency symptoms?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2007 06:11AM by suncloud.

just want to add one more thing...

If your doctor has checked your B12 levels with a blood test and your numbers are in the 650+ range, as a vegan you ought to start taking good high potency sublingual B12 tablets NOW and consider them for life.

The sooner you begin supplementing while your body is in a healthy state the easier it will be to maintain that level of health and energy. Once the B12 levels dip down below 600, the harder it will be to make a come back into strong levels of vitality and you'll need more aggresive intervention like injections and major dietary alterations.

and fyi....there will be some vegans out there who won't ever metabolize B12 well from foods or sublingual tablets because of an enzyme deficiency in their intestines. You can take the Schilling test to check, but you'll intuitively know you're having a problem if no matter what you eat, or what you supplement with you are still feeling and exhibiting B12 deficiency symptoms that are most definately not "detox" or because you are not trying hard enough.
In those cases, the person will likely need lifelong injections in order to sustain their health.


i breathe in
i breathe out
peace
love
joy
Bikini

b12 blood levels are not an accurate indicator of b12 status.

urinary mma is a better test.

see
www.b12.com

what about nutritional yeast flakes? i know it is not raw, but i like to use nutritional yeast for my B vitamins instead of pills. is the B12 in nutritional yeast usuable by the body???

thanks,
m.

My understanding is that some of the nutritional yeast is fortified with B12, and some is not. If it's not fortified, you're not getting a reliable source of B12. Even the fortified yeast has variable amounts of B12, so you never know exactly how much you're getting. If you get the yeast out of the bin at the health food store, chances are that it's not fortified (This info comes from "Wes", the long-time vegetarian manager of the Keaau, Hawaii health food store).

IMO, if the nutritional yeast is fortified, you might as well take a supplement, since you're getting the same thing.

Also, keep in mind that nutritional yeast is not a raw food product.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2007 07:10PM by suncloud.

Hmm... I've been vegan for three years, but only raw for three months... I'm really active, my bike being my only transportation, I ride it about 6-20 miles a day. I drink a lot of kombucha, and I don't really have any symtoms of B12 deficiency, but I guess it's too early to tell?

Berlinpathos, Good that you're being open-minded about it. Check The Vegan Society article. Some people become deficient much sooner than others, and it's very possible that a person can become deficient and not recognize that they actually have symptoms. Personality changes for instance may not be accredited to vitamin B deficiency.

I think bikini has the best suggestion. If you're not taking a supplement, get yourself tested on a regular basis. Maybe a couple of times a year. I'd check out the suggestion by Fresh too for a possibly more accurate testing method.

Taking a supplement though might actually be cheaper and less of a hassle.

Oh, and congratulations for being vegan 3 years! and raw 3 months!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2007 09:53PM by suncloud.

Hi! I'd like to start by saying I don't follow a raw foods diet but have been a vegetarian for about 12 years now. (I'm here because I'm researching the diet for a class).
About 5 years ago I was diagnosed as being anemic with B12 deficiency.
There's two reasons for your deficiency:
a) Your diet is severely lacking
b)You don't have whats called the intrinsic factor in your digestive system. It's something you would have been born with, probably a recessive gene in your parents. The intrinsic factor is needed for your body to absorbe Vitamin b12.

If the reason for the deficiency is the (A) option then you can probably fix the problem with oral supplements or simply by eating a diet which involves animal products (B12 is unique in that it is the only vitamin which can only be found in animal products). Like a previous post mentioned, you should get a blood test to check your levels because your doctor may need to prescribe some supplements or give your some shots.

If the reason is option (, which is the one I'm told I have (by my doctor), then the only way to get B12 into your bloodstream is to have it injected directly into the body. This is because you cannot absorb it into your bloodstream through your digestive system.

My levels were so low that I was on the borderline of it becomming serious involving neurological damage and nervous system damage. Unfrotunately, each shot costs around $30. To get your levels back up, regardless of how deficient you are, you need one shot every single day for two weeks straight. After that it is taken down to about 2 shots a week, once a week, twice a month, once a month, and eventualy once every 3 months. If you have option (b) then you will require the shots for the rest of your life every 3 months to stay at healthy levels.

Being a college student on a college budget, I had to pass on the shots a first. BIG MISTAKE. Don't do this regardless of why you have a deficiency or how extreme it is.
I now have mild memeory loss (forget simple things such as words, names, what day it is, what I'm doing. all sounds like normal forgetfullness but it's so often it effects my daily life. And I sometimes forget what I look like and have to go and check, which is actually quite amusing.) I also have slight speach problems such as jumbling my worlds up, forgetting what things are called and simple words, spelling gets mixed up almost like dislexics get letters mixed.
My symptoms were numbness in my right arm and extreme fatigue and sometimes gettign faint, whic hi still experience if my levels get a little low.

My point is, get it checked and under control ASAP. If left untreated forever, it WILL lead to evetual permenent paralysis of the limbs.

It seems that even now, doctors, nutritionists etc know very little about B12. B12 and veganism are almost always mentioned together, and I think that's a very dangerous attitude for people, especially professionals to take, since B12 defiency can affect anyone, regardless of their choice of diet.

I've read that sprouts, sea vegetables, unwashed veggies etc have very small amounts of B12, but not enough for absolute peace of mind. I've read on a lot of raw food forums, raw foodists having a "I'm not taking supplements" attitude, which is scary. I personally think that most people, vegans, vegetarians, meat-eaters- should supplement their diet. Intensive farming has destroyed soil, then we have the whole GM crisis... it seems that if popping a tablet once a day can make a difference to our health, it's worth it, vegan or otherwise.

It would be interesting to see a B12 study based on people eating organic, unwashed fruit and veg from the western world compared to areas like New Zealand, parts of the Caribbean etc. Also, what about B12 levels in non-vegans from the western world compared to those from more rural countries?

If there is a link to lower B12 levels and depleted nutrient levels in soil, I shudder to think how we're going to explain it to our future grandchildren.

Lower B12 in the soil comes from using pesticides and artificial fertilizers in the soil. Natural soils, or organic soils, are loaded with B12.

I personally don't worry about B12. I have a healthy body, and healthy digestion, so my body produces enough for me. For people who have challenged digestive systems, B12 absorption could be a problem. Or people who don't eat organic foods, or people who eat susbstances that are antibiotic/antibacterial in nature, since all B12 in the world is created from bacteria.

Here are some articles on the raw food perspective of B12:

The Vitamin B12 Issue
Rethinking & Clarifying the Vitamin B12 Issue

Hi Bryan!

I'd already seen the top link and wasn't sure what to make of the info within, but the second article was new to me and I found it very interesting, thanks

There's a B12 section at veganforums.com that's been dedicated to B12 info for a long time, discussing supplements, jabs, natural sources of B12 etc. I think that given all the misleading information from doctors and the B12 anti-vegan scaremongering etc, a thorough vegan-run enquiry into B12 is long overdue! In general, the studies I've seen are just based on "Are vegans B12 deficient?" rather than "Vegans are presumed to be B12 deficient. However, this person isn't... why?" or "This group of non-vegans is B12 deficient... why?"

Any soil can that is deficient in cobalt probably is B12 deficient as without cobalt there can't be B12. Different soils in different parts of the world have different mineral compositions. Some soils are cobalt deficient and farmers need to add cobalt to the soil or the ruminants' diet so that they can get/produce enough B12 for survival.