From ACS Journals which tout themselves as:
ACS publishes many of the world's leading peer-reviewed research journals in the chemical and related sciences.


[pubs.acs.org]

Dried Green and Purple Lavers (Nori) Contain Substantial Amounts of Biologically Active Vitamin B12 but Less of Dietary Iodine Relative to Other Edible Seaweeds

Abstract:

Vitamin B12 concentrations of dried green (Enteromorpha sp.) and purple (Porphyra sp.) lavers (nori) were determined by both Lactobacillus leichmannii ATCC 7830 microbiological and intrinsic factor chemiluminescence methods. The values determined by using the microbiological method (63.58 ± 2.90 and 32.26 ± 1.61 g/100 g of dry weight) were identical to those found by using the chemiluminescence method (69.20 ± 2.21 and 25.07 ± 0.54 g/100 g of dry weight) in both dried green and purple lavers, respectively. A silica gel 60 thin-layer chromatography of both laver extracts shows that non-coenzyme forms (hydroxo and cyano forms) of vitamin B12 predominate in both dried lavers. The dried lavers contained lesser amounts of dietary iodine (~4-6 mg/100 g of dry weight) relative to other seaweeds, suggesting that excessive intake of the dried lavers is unlikely to result in harmful intake of dietary iodine.

These results indicate that the dried lavers (nori) are the most excellent source of vitamin B12 among edible seaweeds, especially for strict vegetarians.

Lillianswan - I also post as tropical, I think I'm going back to this login



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2007 05:07PM by Lillianswan.

I just ate a Nori sandwich today, that's good news.

I am pretty sure these are analogues, and not the real thing with the corrin ring structure. They might actually hinder real B12 uptake.

I'd stick with methylcobalamin. You don't need much, just a few mcg per day. One mcg is 0.000001 g.

Now I was expecting someone to say that it was from the fish @#$%& or farm runoff in the water and not the wrong kind of B12. I've been told that "to get B12 eat dirt or @#$%&" the ocean environment sounds just perfect for B12 bacteria to grow in. I'm doubting that seaweed actually produces B12, since no other plant can, and that it is just contamination. Can anyone explain how it can be the perfect environment for growing B12 and be the wrong B12? I'm doubting the testing saying that it is analogues.

I agree with Arugula.

Try googling,"Vegan Society, B12, nori", or just "B12, nori".

According to the Vegan Society, the only way to really determine if a specific food can supply sufficient amounts of useable B12 is to test to see if eating that food will reverse B12 deficiency. B12 deficiency is determined by testing for corpuscular volume (MCV), rather that blood content of B12, since B12 in the blood (or the food) could actually be B12 analogues.

Not only has nori been shown to be an inadequate source for improving B12 status, there is some evidence that consuming it can actually inhibit true B12 absorption (due to the B12 analogue content in the nori).

I'm openminded that perhaps the studies to date are insufficient or whatever, but until there's at least one study showing that eating nori can actual improve B12 status, I'll continue taking a methlycobalamin supplement.

It's probably worthwhile to note that for a healthy vegan ADULT, it usually does take a long time to become B12 deficient without supplementing. For people who have made a vegan commitment though, and especially for those who have already been vegan for a number of years, supplementing is the most informed choice (IMHO).

Probably some of the best advice on B12 can be found on the Vegan Society website.

There are some "professional" raw fooders of course who disagree, but usually their articles are unreferenced. Beware.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2007 04:13AM by suncloud.

Actually Lilianswan you might be right this time. It is probably @#$%& or dead sea creatures bits etc. and there are some biologically active forms. Some seaweeds have actually been tested and found to have adequate amounts of the real thing.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

But others, no, if the inactive analogues predominate they can hinder uptake of the genuine ones.

But I don't think it's safe to rely on it, until there is some more rigorous quantification. I will cross my fingers.

One of the packets of seaweed I saw had the warning "may contain bits of fish or shell" which sounds like the warning on bean packets that they "might contain stones" and I've never found a stone in my beans. It's gross, but then I suppose that the birds poo on the fruit so there is yuckiness everywhere. Thanks for the info arugula!

An interesting view on b12 to think about.
[www.livingnutrition.com]

I have been a vegetarian for most of my life (I'm 41 years old, now) and vegan on and off for about fifteen years (completely vegan for more than a year). I was diagnosed with B12 deficiency about a year ago (I had mild symptoms of deficiency for many years). I developed a problem with homocystine (sp?) because of the B12 deficiency, which can cause heart problems. I already have a mitral valve regurgitation problem, so I needed to get the homocystine level down. I tried nutritional yeast and nori, but they didn't help. I ended up taking supplements (the sublingual ones) and that helped bring my B12 up to a healthy range.

I think because I was vegetarian for so long, any stores of B12 I had must have been used up a long time ago. It's easy to replace with the supplement and even though some will use the B12 issue as a reason why veganism isn't healthy, I think in their hearts they know it's not true. Isn't it pretty much understood that plants lack B12 because our soils now lack it from our farming practices?

Love,

Gypsy

Just wanted to add a couple more thoughts on the issue.

To GypsyArdor, glad to hear your B12 is back up. Did your homocysteine level go down?

In my above post, I mentioned that MCV (corpuscular volume) could be tested to determine B12 deficiency. But I've since read that heightened levels of MCV would usually occur in ADVANCED stages of B12 deficiency (An Update of Vitamin B12 metabolism and deficiency states,Journal of Family Practice, Randall Swain).

Tests for elevated MMA (methylmalonic acid) and homocysteine serum levels would be more appropriate for ealier detection of B12 deficiency.

About the nori, there are lots of ways the nori could have been contaminated to show positive results for active B12. One way is the introduction of fish/shellfish into the nori as mentioned by Lillianswan and Arugula, ESPECIALLY with dried nori. Dried nori was used in the test cited by Arugula above. It's also perhaps noteworthy that the test was done on rats, not humans, and that tests so far on humans have not had the same results, at least not any tests that I'm aware of.

On the other hand, active B12 bacteria could have been introduced to the nori due to exposure to the ocean environment. In fact, since B12 IS a bacteria, and not a plant, if nori IS ever found to contain sufficient quantities of active B12 for humans, then it makes sense to assume that exposure of the nori to its ocean environment is the factor that put the B12 into the nori.

If that's the case, that would be great, except that, given the more negative results of testing the nori on humans so far, there would still be many, MANY questions about the CONSISTENCY of active B12 levels in nori, and what factors would influence whether or not a specific batch of nori would have suffient B12.

It's not JUST whether active B12 can be found in nori somewhere, under some conditions. RELIABILITY of nori as a dependable source for active B12 is a huge consideration.

For instance, would harvest location make a difference? Does ocean temperature, ocean pollution, etc., affect B12 levels in the areas where nori is harvested. What about cleaning? If nori is cleaned sufficiently to remove shellfish before drying, would that also remove active B12? What about the method of drying, etc.?

Once all that's worked out, then some nori products might be considered of higher value to vegans than others. Maybe nori labels will say "gathered from tropical ocean waters", or whatever to indicate the product would have a greater probability of containing active B12.

Considering that so far HUMAN testing has NOT shown ANY nori yet to be effective in reversing B12 deficiency, it would seem there's still a long way to go before we can say that we can depend on the nori we pick up at the store will to supply a reliable and sufficient source of B12.

After about 15 years 100% vegan (and no B12 fortified foods), I had some classic B12 deficiency symptoms that were reversed after supplementing. It took about a month for the symptoms to disappear, and they've never returned (it's been about 6 years).

Suncloud,

Thanks. Yes, my homocysteine levels are in the healthy range now!

I don't take the B12 supplement every day anymore, but I do take one from time-to-time.

Love,

Gypsy

That's good news GypsyArdor (I love your name)!

Just one other thing that I've been wondering about regarding nori.

Nori is a good source for iodine. I love the taste of the raw organic nori that I now buy, but I've tried a raw organic nori brand that tasted absolutely awful! It tasted just like a dead rotten fish smells. I couldn't eat it at all, and each sheet from the package that I tried had that same awful taste.

Some other packaged seaweed that I've tried tasted that way too, and I'm wondering if anyone else has had that experience? Could it be that the awful taste was due to contamination with dead fish/shellfish?

Any opinions?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2007 01:26AM by suncloud.

I like the point in Mislu's article that the problem is not B12 ingestion but it's absorbtion. I've read that this really affects the elderly, even the ones eating lots of animal procducts.

If eating dirt can solve B12 problems why not do it? Maybe there are other vitamins that science hasn't discovered yet that might also be supplemented by eating dirt. Now I'm talking about a controlled source of dirt, like the dirt in my wheatgrass trays. Or maybe I could add a little dirt in with the wheat berries when I make rejuvalac, and let it sit around for awhile and let the bacteria grow and then drink the water, and not eat the dirt.

Actually, rejuvelac already has B12, I think I'll go back to that.
[www.herbs-hands-healing.co.uk]

Suncloud, I've been eating nori and one pack ran out and I opened another pack from the same company and noticed that the new nori tasted more fishy. So it varies from pack to pack. Maybe you did come across a really bad pack, I bet that when they are pulling it out of the water they don't notice some contamination.

Powdered kelp always has a fishy taste, I can barely stand it, which is why I like nori better.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2007 03:00AM by Lillianswan.

So here is a pic of nori harvesting. The plants are grown on frames tied to stakes in the sea, they seem quite small. Aren't there scavenger fish that would clean up dead fish? Maybe the fishy smell is just the smell of the ocean in general.

Ha, ha in Japan they don't say "An apple a day keeps the doctor away"

- from the site:

Today, 1300 years later, nori has maintained its popularity as attested by the proverb, "Two sheets of nori keep the doctor away."

[takaokayausa.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2007 03:21AM by Lillianswan.

Lillianswan,
I re-read the article, and what stood out to me was that Cyanocobalamin is often refered to as "B12" by "scientists" and others who take supplements or sale them. Its not the best form, as it has to be stripped of the cyano molecule and converted into an active b12 form. This results in toxic cyanide by products. The body has to work really hard in this process and people are stimulated. I knew someone who took a high dose of 'b12' which contained Cyanocobalamin. I knew at the time that Cyanocobalamin was not the best form, and that cyanide could be a serious problem, but I didn't know how serious it could be. I thought that it might be 'ok' as the body would convert it and deal with some amount of cyanide and get an overal benefit. But according to this article it doesn't do much. Temporarily one might look like ones b12 issues are solved, as a blood test done shortly after Cyanocobalamin supplementation would reveal a rise, if that is what they are looking for.

The other forms mentioned in the article sound like a better option, if one is considering b12 supplementation. The part about absorbing b12 from the mouth, nose and tosils, I don't understand. In theory nobody should have any problem if one gets b12 from this source, and from vegan foods, and what is made in the gut. The only way I can see one developing a b12 problem is if one has an evelated need for b12 for some reason, and one has a serious digestive tract disorder. In theory that is.

I read these articles, but then I sometimes read posts about long term vegans having problems with b12. So I don't know what to think sometimes. I want to believe that b12 is available naturally, from vegan sources, as that seems like a possibility.

Rejuvelac has b12? Its fermented in the grain soaking? I have never made that. It seems like it would have a lot of other stuff, especially minerals and other vitamins. How does it taste?

I found some interesting information from the Linus Pauling Institute about b12.
[lpi.oregonstate.edu]
There was a lot of information on this page that I never understood. The part about cyanocobalamin being redily converted to 5-deoxyadenosyl and methylcobalamin in the body, conflicts a bit with the vegan board.

From a vegan site
[www.veganhealth.org]

I am a bit curious if vegans and fruitarians have more trouble because the stomach acid is generally lower when one doesn't eat meat. In the Linus Pauling site, its states that stomach acid releases b12 from food. One of the fruitarian webpages states that the more alkaline digestion actually absorbs b12 better...eh...

I know there's a lot of people who say rejuvelac (and other fermented foods like sauerkraut) has lots of B12, but I can't seem to find any studies whatsoever that verify that.

The idea that rejuvelac has lots of B12 seems to come from the teachings of Ann Wigmore. It's very possible that when Ann Wigmore came to her conclusions, analysis of MMA and homocysteine levels to test for B12 deficiency and recovery had not yet been developed.

Maybe check this article: "Vitamin B12: Are You Getting It? B12 Status: Raw Foodist Vegans".

Each of the studies reviewed in the article are interesting. The one that is most relevant for fermented foods is the Finnish Study, "Living Food Eaters in Finland":

"Rauma et al (1995, Finland) examined the B12 status in long-term adherents of a strict uncooked (raw) vegan diet called the 'living food diet'. They assumed their large intake of bacterially fermented foods (about 2 kg/day in this study) would provide plenty of B12 as well as modify their intestinal bacteria to provide more B12.

"In Part I of the study, food consumption data were collected and blood samples were taken from 9 vegan 'living food eaters' (LFE)(1 male, 8 females), 2 years apart. Six of the 9 vegans showed slow consistent deterioration of B12 status over this period, indicating that the supply of B12 from the 'living food diet' was inadequate to maintain the sB12..."

"The Finnish eaters of the living food diet participating in this study started to supplement their diet after finding out their low vitamin B12 status".
----------------

Most researchers agree that there are 2 causes of B12 deficiency: Lack of B12 in the diet, and an inability to absorb B12. It seems that an inability to absorb B12 can most commonly be found in older meateaters, while lack of B12 in the diet is most common with vegans.

My understanding from various sources is that soils low in cobalt are also low in B12. There's lots of really interesting (I think) stuff on the relationship between cobalt and B12. Google "B12, soil, cobalt".

Mislu, the link you provided (www.livingnutrition.com) quotes the Vetrano artilcle. That's one of the articles I actually had in mind when I referred previously to UNREFERENCED articles on B12. (Beware!) The Vetrano article contains blatantly false information. The BIGGEST red flag is on her statement, "If we ate 100 g of green beans, beets, carrots, and peas, we would have half of our so-called daily minimum requirement of Vitamin B12 coenzymes". Anyone can check any nutritional chart and see that the statement is complete and utter nonsense (sorry to be so blunt)! If B12 were that simple for vegans to come by, there wouldn't be any controversy at all!

The only references in the Vetrano article are to studies and statements that aren't relevant or do not directly support Vetrano's conclusions. For example, there is a reference to Rodale on B vitamins in general, stating that where one B vitamin is found there are often others, but that statement doesn't have anything do to with B12 specifically. Many vegan foods supply B vitamins, but that doesn't mean they supply B12 (Mislu, for some reason, when I tried your link, the Rodale reference was messed up, but I've seen the unmessed version and that's basically what it was about).

People can have great raw reputations like Ms. Vetrano and still goof up big time. We're all human.

The same can be said for statements like the one about fruitarians being able to absorb B12 better. That MIGHT actually be true, but without a source of B12, it wouldn't make any difference. Whatever the case, people can say anything. People can think anything too, but it doesn't make it true, no matter how well it may jive with a person's ideals or idealogy.

Again, beware of articles and statements on B12 that are unreferenced. There's another article that's been quoted elsewhere on this forum stating that B12 is recycled in the body. Not so. B12 is absorbed and stored, then reabsorbed from storage when it's needed. But it's not recycled over and over. Once it's reabsorbed from storage, that's it. The author of this article draws her faulty conclusion after plagiarizing a more reputable source and then leaving out the last part of the plagiarized sentence that would have made the true meaning more clear.

So again, beware.

Really the best way for people to individually handle the B12 controversy is to keep an open mind about it; and if you don't supplement, then I suggest you get your MMa and homocysteine levels tested occasionally, maybe every 2 years or so. That's really the only way to know for sure. I wouldn't wait until you get symptoms. Symptoms vary and aren't always recognizable.

I say cheers to Mislu and anyone else who continues to question. Even though I do supplement (now) with B12, if I ever found evidence that I didn't have to anymore, then I wouldn't.

I think maybe I should mention that although I went 15 years as a vegan without supplementing and without deficiency symptoms, I worked regularly during that time with goat and chicken manures from commercial sources and from neighboring farms - often in the rain. Not only was I breathing the dust, I was often covered with manure from head to toe for hours while fertilizing our fruit trees. Naturally, I must have absorbed a little B12 that way. Perhaps I absorbed enough to help keep me going for 15 years without supplementing, but not enough to last forever. Most vegans don't handle that much manure, and might need to supplement with B12 sooner. And of course, everyone's different.

Again, people can theorize this way and that way, but the best way to know for sure for YOURSELF is to get your B12 status tested.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2007 07:42AM by suncloud.

I can't believe that I started a B12 thread, the information on B12 threads is so repetitious that they bore me and I avoid them. But I've learned so much from this one, thanks for all the info everyone. I guess that if you feel the need to supplement, do it. Reading through the lists of B12 deficiency symptoms on various websites, I realized that I had some of the symptoms (tingling and being clutsy) when I was eating SAD. At the time I thought that I was pre-diabetic, but maybe I was actually B12 deficient since the antibiotics in the animal products I was eating were destroying the B12 in my body. Those symptoms went away when I went vegan. So, I currently don't feel B12 deficient at all.

I also found that B12 is in wheatgrass (45 mcg in a 3500 mg sample) the same person, Harvey Lisle, who tested the wheatgrass, tested rejuvelac and found B12 there but I couldn't find results for rejuvelac anywhere.
[877myjuicer.zoovy.com]

If we lived in a non-industrial environment, I wouldn't see the need to supplement, but I found that mercury will mess with B12 (see below) so I am going to buy some Methylcobalamin, can anyone recommend a good source? Thanks. Again what convinced me of the need was not a lack in the diet, but that the background mercury in our environment is so high in this polluted world.

[www.howweheal.com]
12) Inorganic mercury is known to accumulate on the BBB. It is thought that it oxidises the cobalt atom in methylcobalamin, making it far less able to cross the barrier. Inorganic mercury is thus a creator of deficiency of B12 in the nervous system and symptoms usually attributed to mercury toxicity in the brain and nerves are due to its effect on B12. Inorganic mercury exposure is most commonly from mercury amalgam dental fillings and vaccines. Psychiatrist John Dommisse in the USA claims to have reversed 100% of his pre-Alzhemiers patients with the use of methylcobalamin as well as many cases of depression. Methylcobalamin is highly recommended by the Swedish Association of Dental Mercury Patients. It has been used successfully in the treatment of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia - more than 60% of these patients have tested for low levels in the cerebrospinal fluid. It has been used successfully as part of treatments in Autism, Schizophrenia and Multiple Sclerosis and has great potential in Parkinson's Disease and Muscular Dystrophy as well as other neurological or psychological disorders. In such cases intramuscular injections or sublingual liquids or lozenges of methylcobalamin are maximally effective in combating deficiency symptoms since they by-pass the complex absorption process in the intestines. There is no evidence for toxicity of methylcobalamin. Up to 40mg per day has been used therapeutically in some cases. Large doses have been used since it must overwhelm the effect of any mercury on the BBB.

That's interesting about the mercury Lillianswan.

The soil thing interests me. It used to be that cobalt (required in the natural production of B12) was taken up by the plants that fed the planteaters. Then the planteaters' manure, rich in cobalt and B12 was returned to enrich the soil. That's only true for the wild animals now, and their manure continues to enrich the soil of undeveloped areas. But since conventional farmers don't use manures on their crops anymore, just petroleum-based fertilizers, the normal practice of renewing the cobalt taken up by plants as they grow, isn't happening.

If true, it's another reason to buy organic as much as we can.

On our little planet here, we only have so much of this and so much of that. It seems like maybe a whole lot of our cobalt is getting flushed down the toilet.

I dunno.

Suncloud,
Thank you for your input. B12 seems to be a continual topic for this board and related raw food boards. Its been addressed on some fruitarian webpages as well, but I am disappointed when there wasn't a reference given. One page said something about fruitarian b12 being the most effective. However, I thought (as you noted) that there wasn't any known b12 in any fruit. The webpage also didn't mention the source. I think it implied that it was made in, and absorbed in the gut of fruitarians.

I have a garden and the deer visit regularly. Mostly they eat all my plants down to the ground. But they are kind enough to digest them and leave them in little piles around the yard. I used to get quite upset, but now days I am actually thinking of ways to enhance my garden and yard for wild animals, deer and otherwise. I never thought that they might be enriching my yard with b12. But there is no way to know, they eat all kinds of stuff in the semi-wild area I call home. Who knows maybe even the deer are low in b12?

Mislu,

I love your story about the deer. I think that's a great idea about enhancing your garden and yard for wild animals!

I hope you can get to keep enough of your garden for yourself though! Maybe you could fence in a little area to keep the deer out, but still have an area where the deer are welcome. You could throw out some extras from your garden for the deer, and then they'd leave you their little presents all over the place that you could pick up and compost back into your garden.

It's possible the deer are low in B12, but we can only do what we can do. If the deer are there, and if you're helping them, that has to be a good thing for everybody and for our mother planet too!

Suncloud,
I had no idea that many soils are so low in cobalt.
[www.veganhealth.org]
The deer around here look fairly healthy. I saw a very large buck this morning with a large rack. Such a beautiful animal.

Yeah, they are kind enough to digest my plants and give them back in pellets! he he he...I hope that i can grow something. its officially illegal to have fences where I live. But, some people have them. Its definately ok to have small ones for gardens, actually more like plant protectors. I just haven't invested in them.

I planted some osoberries, i hope they come up this coming spring. Its supposed to provide good browse for deer, attract hummingbirds when they flower. The small fruits are edible for humans and birds. I find the fruit extremely energizing and healing. They are only available for such a brief period however. About two weeks this year.

I have some salmonberries, and I am trying to increase the number of thimbleberries and salal and wild strawberries. I had 4 strawberries this summer, but I have lots of plants! The deer seem to like the strawberry leaves. I fed the salmonberries expired vitamin/mineral tablets, so me and the deer probably got a little extra boost in the berries and fruit.

I am thinking that I might add specifically a cobalt fertilizer to the yard. Actually, before that I could stand to get my soils tested in general to see what it needs. I haven't done that yet. How can I expect to have a garden without basic tests? Cobalt sulfate seems to be a human cancer causing agent however. Have you ever fertilized with cobalt?

All those berries sound wonderful, and so good for you!

I've never fertilized with cobalt.

I kind of think just keeping the natural cycle going with good organic fertilizers, mulches, and compost is the best way to ensure a healthy soil and a healthy environment for good bacterias like B12.

I don't know if cobalt sulfate is organic. I've really never heard of it, but it doesn't sound good if it causes cancer. If it's not organic, it's probably best not to interfere with the natural processes of things. Nature knows best how to heal herself. We can help though. I think soil health is probably a lot like body health. Provide only the most wholesome ingredients to the body/soil, and the body/soil will do the rest.

Hm, I never realized before how similar the word "soil" is to the word "soul".

Sorry. Must be getting late.

Smiles for you Mislu. This has been a fun conversation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2007 10:09AM by suncloud.

Your probably right about using organic fertilizers only. Thats what I have been using so far. Last year I collected hundreds of pounds of leaves, and the same with this year. Its been a lot of work, but I really believe it will pay off. The slugs are already busy eating the leaves.

Last year I tried to compost all the leaves, but this year I just spread them throughout the yard. It just seems even more natural this way. It feels a little odd, because everyone else in the area is busy trying to rake them all up into a pile for composting or disposal. I always seem to be dancing to a different drum. I'm actually raking leaves up to add to the yard! One of my neighbors wants me to do her yard. I've just been collecting them from a road on a hill that isn't driven on very much, where nobody lives. The county cleans the road off once a year, and I don't know what they do with the litter.

I have no idea how much of what minerals are contained in the leaves. Prior to developement into a housing community, its been logged many times over. It looks natural, but I am always telling a friend how this whole area just seems 'depleted'. The people look and behave 'depleted'.(even though most people have access to foods grown all over) The houses look depleted, especially the manicured yards. But even the natural areas just seem depleted. I have no evidence that it actually is, its just my sense.

There was a link to this naturalist who suggested that 'depletion' of soils has a physical but also spiritual component. I wish I could remember who this was, and what this idea is called. This person had developed a number of cures to revitalize an area. He used crystals, prizisms, mirrors. But also animal horns filled with herbs, shells filled with herbs. (taking advantage of natural vortexes created by their shapes) Collecting and special preparation of particular herbs, to fertilize particular crops and plants. At the time I saw this I was open to just the physical aspects, however, I could really use any type of revitalization available on any level.

I'm planting winter rye which I have soaked in minerals. Unfortunately, there isn't any cobalt in this mixture, or vitamin b12. But plenty of over minerals. I just got some expired multiminerals that were 75% off at a local vitamin/medicine shop. It was fairly cheap, and I thought it might be good insurance to help against this sense of 'depletion' in the area. But, as you point out, maybe its not really helping by adding stuff.

I think that's wonderful what you're doing with the leaves. I'm very impressed!

I checked for some possible sources of organic cobalt and came up with these:

Davesgarden.com says greensand, kelp, and cottonseed meal are good sources of cobalt. If your soil is clayish, greensand would be great. Maxicrop is a very good organic kelp product. Try to get only the organic cottonseed meal. The regular nonorganic cottonseed meal is full of chemicals.

Diatomaceous earth and dolomite contain cobalt. Diatomaceous earth is also great for keeping away insect pests. The purest form of diatomaceous earth is the food grade diatomaceous earth. Some diatomaceous earths, like the kind used for swimming pools, contain added synthetic pesticides or synergists. Avoid those of course. For some good info on diatomacious earth, check www.fatworms.com.

Dolomite is alkaline and helps plants absorb nitrogen. Dolomite can either be magnesium carbonate or calcium carbonate. Too much dolomite too often could throw off soil ph balance. But leaves are usually low ph (high acid), especially oak leaves, so if you're putting on a lot of leaves, adding dolomite would probably be a good thing.

Here's a surprise: coconut has lots of cobalt. Coconut meal, called copra meal, is the byproduct of coconut oil extraction. When you think about it, it makes sense, since coconuts often grow very close to the ocean and absorb lots of seawater. Copra meal is often purchased as a horse feed. I haven't heard of it being used as a soil amendment, and it does contains some oil. If you add it to soil, maybe go easy and mix it with compost first. It's available from www.boomerangcopra.com and www.stanceglobal.com.

Manures contain cobalt, though the levels vary.

The less compassionate sources of cobalt are fish eulsion, bone meal, blood meal, shell, and shrimpmeal, oyster meal, crab meal, etc.

Thanks mislu for helping me learn so much new stuff! I never would have given this much thought if you hadn't expressed your concern. I'll be spending the rest of the day gardening and orcharding, and thinking of you!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2007 08:19PM by suncloud.

Suncloud,
Wow, you are really great for researching those items. I tried a search, and didn't find nearly as much info. I did however find cobalt sulfate available by the kilo at rock bottom prices!

[www.crystalgrowing.com]

Just look at that bag of red powder! Thats what I need alright! heh heh! just kidding, if I was running a very large farm then thats a posibility. I am sure that bag would cover the cobalt needs of hundreds of acres of farmland, or thousands of animals. Actually, I never thought of exactly how much cobalt is needed for healthy soil, and healthy animals living on plants grown in such soil.

Did you see the disclaimers on the bottom? Must be some really dangerous stuff. I'll stick to leaves, copra, cottonseed meal and the like...things that don't explode or got into flames by itself, actually I haven't the slightest as to the actual properties of cobalt sulfate. But it obviously must be very active, which makes sense, that must be why its so useful for biological functions.

Cobalt sulfate is in the goldfish food I feed to my goldfish. She seems to like it, but I am sure its just a light dusting for a whole bag. I have been watering my plants with the changes of water, so I am sure it manages to get to my garden, along with nitrogen and other stuff. I recently added some plants, so those must be getting some. My plan is now to use the plants as fertilizer when and if they grow too long for her tank.

I went to trader joes today, and I looked at their vitamins. They have some very inexpensive vitamins, but they are all full of oxides, carbonates and cyano form of b12. Eh...I'll wait until I find better forms for b12.

Weird, one form of b12 is called a drug.
[en.wikipedia.org]

cyanocobalamin is called a vitamin, but at least they state the following about this form:

"...This use is being contested because research[citation needed] indicates that it may not be able to correct B12 deficiency in the brain effectively. Being an unnatural form of B12 it is misleading to equate it with the vitamin especially if it is not a fully effective supplement."

[en.wikipedia.org]

Of course it states some hotly debated statements about b12.
"The more alkaline intestines of vegans[citation needed] are able to metabolize hydroxyl cobalamin preferentially, a more efficient cobalamin than cyanocobalamin.[citation needed]

A natural vegan source of B12 is the Chinese herb Dang Gui (Angelica sinensis) [14]. The herb is used in Traditional Chinese medicine for treating anemia.[1] Other potential sources of B12 for vegans include Indonesian tempeh [2], ontjom, and other fermented food products. Spirulina, a blue-green algae (or more commonly a cyanobacter) that has recently gained popularity as a dietary supplement, may also contain some B12.[citation needed] Another source of B12 is yeast spreads, such as Marmite, which are suitable for vegetarians and vegans."

It is interesting that b12 can be used for cyanide poisoning.

"Hydroxycobalamin, also known as Vitamin B12a, is used in Europe both for vitamin B12 deficiency and as a treatment for cyanide poisoning, sometimes with a large amount (5-10 g) given intravenously, and sometimes in combination with sodium thiosulfate[18]. The mechanism of action is straightforward, the hydroxycobalamin hydroxide ligand is displaced by the toxic cyanide ion, and the resulting harmless B12 complex is excreted in urine. In the United States, the FDA has approved in 2006 the use of hydroxocobalamin for acute treatment of cyanide poisoning."