Ok: So I was leafing through Carol Alt's book on raw cuisine and she believes that cheeses made out of raw milk are acceptable in a raw food diet. For the sake of gradually weaning myself off of cooked food and to try and curb my cravings for potato chips, I've been keeping a small hunk of blue and parm around...any thoughts on this?

Ms. Alt fails to consider the dairy cow. Consider her life. What do you suppose was done to her to make her pregnant? What do you suppose happens to her child shortly after it is born? What happens to her when her productivity wanes? She has a brain, emotions, she thinks, she feels, her brain lights up when she solves problems. She would like to get cuddles. Etc.

Regarding Ms. Alt, it just goes to show we are living in an upside down backwards, inside out world. A person whose principle contributions to society are posing and looking good gets a big fat book contract, spouting advice on matters that she knows little to nothing about, and her book was doubtless mostly ghost written. Meanwhile, many very good people even on this forum, who are more self-effacing, modest, and not relentlessly self-promoting, who did not lead charmed lives, who are not of sufficient pull to get cushy book advances and promotional tours and media air time etc. will give you good heartfelt advice gained only after years of study, practice, and introspection, and genuine help.

PS this is a vegan forum!

It's up to you. There's no one right way to eat, not even with raw. If you eat any dairy, you just won't be classified as a raw vegan. Dairy, from my research and opinion, is very mucus-causing so I'm staying away from it.

Raw would have been good enough for me, but the education I received on this forum made me choose to be raw vegan.

Whatever you decide, enjoy!

It's up to you. I guess some dairy can be raw.

But just keep in mind it's meant to be food for calves, even if ethical considerations aren't important to you.

[utopiankitchen.wordpress.com]

Carol Alt is not 100%. She consumes raw dairy and raw meat also. I believe she has mentioned this somewhere - I heard it from a raw buddy. Not defending her, but sometimes the media does bend things out of proportion in whatever direction they please. I personally choose not to listen to her and do not condone eating raw dairy nor any type of meat. We're on different paths regarding raw but I don't condemn her. She's reaching her audience. With that said now I go need to go and make some cuc-celery juice to wash away thoughts of the dairy and flesh stuff...Bleh!....no offense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2008 08:37PM by rawangel.

aloha nadia, this is a raw VEGAN forum, so its actually against forum rules to discuss eating raw dairy products. but there are lots of forums for raw foodists that consume raw dairy products, so if you have questions i'm sure you can get some answers. i support you with whatever you decide is optimal for you, and i know there are some folks who post here who consume raw dairy, we just don't talk about it.

i've heard some people dehydrate thinly sliced potatoes and sweet potatoes tossed with oil and salt. i personally love to use thin sliced sweet potato "chips" (raw, not dehydrated) for dips. be careful though, some potatoes aren't so good to eat raw i think... good luck with the potato chip thing! (for me it was bean burritos...)

The worst digestive problems I have ever had happened when I ate dairy. Guess what ? I don't eat dairy anymore. Now I frequent vegan forums like this one.

There are unquestionably certain races/ethnicities that evolved with cows and evolved the capcity to digest milk (hence lactase that is active life-long in certain genetic strains of humans). Here's one article I found with a quick search: [findarticles.com]

This is similar to our capacity to eat meat, which we are clearly designed to BE ABLE TO DO (not HaVE TO).

Yes, this is a raw, vegan forum, but these "outskirts" questions are important to a lot of people, and, in my opinion, should not be ignored. And, hey, none of us are perfect.

So, yes....you have lots of questions to ask yourself. Do you want to support harmful dairy practices (not all are, by the way)? Do you want to honor your body's capability to eat/drink milk or do you want to make kindness towards animals and the environment primary? Are they mutually exclusive? Can you eat an oreo plain? ;~)

I am far far far from perfect. I will say that the last time I drank milk it was from Organic Pastures....I suggest any "doubters" read how they treat their family (cows) and how they obtain their milk at www.organicpastures.com.

Good luck in figuring out what is best for you.

Love,
Paul

[www.oneillpaul.com-a.googlepages.com]

i read carol alt's book, and i thought it was a very honest (and not flattering) account of her own personal journey, which is just as valid as any of ours. if she feels she is thriving on raw dairy and raw fish, more power to her. her pre-raw life of alcohol and pill popping and crazy dieting did not sound so charmed to me, but her post raw life of health and wellness sure did. and if her celebrity status gives her a bully pulpit from which to tout the benefits of a raw diet, more power to her. the worst thing that can happen is that people will read her book or see her on tv and decide to consume more unadulterated fruits and vegetables than they are otherwise doing. in a world where most models and actresses seem to wind up in the news for their self-destructive behavior, its nice to see someone from those ranks devoting their time and energy towards promoting health. i think its admirable.

cheers to that, maui_butterfly

[www.oneillpaul.com-a.googlepages.com]

I would try and make cheese out of raw human milk first, at least it's designed for our species (and you know the animal gave its consent).

EnlightenmentNow Wrote:

> I am far far far from perfect. I will say that
> the last time I drank milk it was from Organic
> Pastures....I suggest any "doubters" read how they
> treat their family (cows) and how they obtain
> their milk at www.organicpastures.com.



Even the factory farms have nice little websites and pictures and stories. The fact of the matter is that cows have to be impreganated to continue lactating....which usually means rape, whether it's a "small" farm or not. And the milk is for the calves, not some selfish humans. If you had gone and seen the farm yourself, I might take your word for it that it's "nicer" than a factory farm; but by no means is taking milk from a baby a good thing. How would you like it if your mother had you taken away after she was raped for your conception, just so she could feed some rabbits? Or you got less food so she could feed some squirrels?

I like branches better than limbs. If you're going to go out, do it after thinking up on that branch, evaluating how you can live the best way possible, not just for you, but for other beings. Because your life affects other lives; there's no question about that. How much you impose yourself upon other beings is up to you.

Dear Utopian Life,

You may have a point, but it does not diminish the "relationship" that we have had with our bovine sisters and brothers for eons. We give them relatively safe living conditions (and life), while we take some of their precious milk and sometimes meat. Yes, we can, in the fullness of our conscious awareness, say "NO" to this,....but perhaps you are living in an artificial Utopia right now by denying this reality?

I love and respect all dreamers of health, wellness and beauty, dreamers of a healthier planet, ....but to function effectively, you have to be where you are, understand where others are, and recognize reality/actuality as it is. People drink milk and love it. You can look at it as raping, but....then again....you can look at pretty much anything as raping if you have enough of a slant.

Oh, the ethical, spiritual, and philosophical (all the same) dilemmas we find ourselves in. It's all so seemingly important, ....but then, I have to laugh when I see a lion munch on a wildabeest without thinking twice. How much do we honor our instict vs. honoring what we "think" is the right direction for us and the planet, etc.? How can we TRULY know?

???

Love,
Paul

[www.oneillpaul.com-a.googlepages.com]

So, do you have a pet cow you do this with? This situation is so rare that I'd rather get to it before debating the ethics of it.

No, it's nothing like a lion eating a wildebeast. Lions don't drink wildebeasts' milk, and no species drinks another species' milk.

Quote

How can we TRULY know?

Here's what the WHO has to say about it (pdf).
[virtualcentre.org]

Here's what Eshel and Martin have to say about it (this is the prius meat eater SUV vegan paper on diet and global warming, pdf).
[geosci.uchicago.edu]

Here's what the ADA has to say about it (pdf).
[www.dietitians.ca]

Here's what David Pimental has to say about it.
[www.ajcn.org]

And more David here (pdf warning):
[dieoff.org]

Considering that there are 8 billion chickens, 1.5 billion cows, and a billion pigs on this planet specifically produced to make food for 6.9 billion people, and that they need to be fed, and have a place to defecate and urinate which is contaminating and depleting the water supply at the same time, I think we do truly know what is best: to live within our means. That does not include dairy, which is not truly necessary for anyone except maybe marginal sustinence farmers in 3rd world countries that have no other way to eat.

Are we different from the other animals? We have free will. We can choose to betray our instincts. That is the noose God gave us to hang ourselves with. We are not created to be meat eaters (no animal was created to drink milk after weaning), it isn't working for our health or our planet. The philosophy is moot when the physical part isn't working. I guess if we all rationalize it like Enlightenmentnow and Simple life do the chair will be kicked out from under us soon enough. Hopefully humans will get their heads out of their butts and get back in balance.

My personal experiences with dairy is I don't digest it well. It causes too much acidity. It didn't take long for those cravings to go away.

I've known some people who rationalize: yes, we are destroying the planet. But it's better for the planet if the catastrophe happens sooner rather than later. So I'll buy my SUV, my plasma TV, my new computer ever 2 years, my 3500 square food house kept at 72F in the winter and summer, have my 3 kids, keep eating at McDs, vote republican, take all my stuff to the dry cleaners, vacation in another continent, and so on.

I am sorry to say that this was basically my parents except for the republican part.

I just wanted to add about the end justifying the means, even if the message is only partially correct, this is a good point. If I partake of an omnivore, 90% plant, 10% animal diet but I convince two other people that it's better to be vegan, and they do go vegan, I have done more good compared to the case of converting to veganism myself without converting anyone. You could take this argument to an extreme by converting 1000s, 10000s, and millions of people.

But it's probably a more convincing argument if we practice what we preach, all the way. And far more difficult, as well. Most of us do not have our hearts and minds in synch. We accept the parts we can accept, and rationalize the rest away.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2008 11:54PM by arugula.

without getting into the ethical debate, I believe biodynamic yoghurt and additive free cheeses in wax are good for you as they are partly digested by the cultures. Especially good if they are made from raw milk.
As I said, this is my health persepctive, without regarding ethical considerations.

EnlightenmentNow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Utopian Life,
>
> You may have a point, but it does not diminish the
> "relationship" that we have had with our bovine
> sisters and brothers for eons.

Hmm....so if something is done by mindless folk for "eons" it should be done forever? I guess you don't believe in evolution of the mind and spirit then. Too bad....but not for me.

Oh, how we all like to narrow the conversation focus to whatever we think we know is right, despite the fact that none of us really know anything, including me.

Utopian Life - it is quite likely that you and your immediate 60 generations of ancestors would not exist were it not for the relationship that we have with cows. At an evolutionary bottleneck (or several), digesting the milk of a cow obviously came in handy. To deny our genetic predisposition for this form of nourishment is dimply denial. Have it as you will, if you prefer to see it that way - no difference to me.

rost0037 - my point with the wildabeest isn't to say that lions drink the milk of other animals (though I'm sure they drink the milk of any female animal they kill, along with every other part), but rather that......so many hyper-self-righteous humans will spend a whole day blogging about how vegetarian, vegan, or raw is the only way to go,......yet in the natural order of things, eating meat is obviously no big deal - happens every day. Yes, for billions of humans to do so, and to do so SO unconsciounably, is different, but only by degrees, no? Argue, if you like, but please save any defensiveness or hyperbole for another day or another person. I'm just trying to have helpful, friendly discussion.

And arugala, I do agree in total, that the ONLY way anyone can lead, has ever lead, or will ever lead, is by example. All else is simply verbal reflections or lipservice to that. The question you might ask yourself, is....why? Keep asking it and follow it like the scent of honeysuckle flowing into a vacuum, but also like a laser-beam to whatever you "need" to know. Don't jump off at a socially acceptable or convenient spot. Ride it all the way through to.......your true self. And then tell me what you "know".

I do recall the cheese from Organic Pastures was quite yummy by the way.

Love,
Paul

[www.oneillpaul.com-a.googlepages.com]

Whether or not non-vegan topics can be discussed here is not up for debate. EnlightenmentNow, if you want to be taken off the game board, I will be more than happy to accommodate you



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2008 07:12AM by Bryan.

Bryan.....Allow us a little leeway in our discussions. "A good Teacher is blind in one eye and deaf in one ear."
I use to drink Raw Milk, from a Certified Herd, when I was a Teacher in Georgia, many many years ago. Those were the 'good old days'. Young and Ignorant......WY

EnlightenmentNow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh, how we all like to narrow the conversation
> focus to whatever we think we know is right,
> despite the fact that none of us really know
> anything, including me.
>
> Utopian Life - it is quite likely that you and
> your immediate 60 generations of ancestors would
> not exist were it not for the relationship that we
> have with cows. At an evolutionary bottleneck (or
> several), digesting the milk of a cow obviously
> came in handy. To deny our genetic predisposition
> for this form of nourishment is dimply denial.
> Have it as you will, if you prefer to see it that
> way - no difference to me.

If you don't like how I narrowed the conversation, then maybe base your responses on something intelligent, instead of your speculations of generations and eons and cow milk.

The name of this forum is raw food support...which i take to mean that people are here to support/assist/advise people through their journey/transition into a healthier/better lifestyle. It was just a question, I didn't mean to offend anyone and arugula, I am aware that this is a vegan forum, but thanks for the reminder!...i wanted to know what some people's opinions were on Alt and her lifestyle.

I sincerely appreciate the mose positive and encouraging responses I recieved, especially from maui butterfly, who actually gave me an alternative to my potato chip fetish.

That said, I didn't mean to offend anyone but maybe the forum's name shouldn't include the word 'support', if people aren't willing to do that!

The support is for the raw vegan diet... I have people telling me how great animal products are everyday. We can offer alternatives for cravings, but it's nice to have a place where we don't have to defend our choice to be vegan.

I totally understand that...but I don't think I was attacking anybody's dietary/lifestyle choices tho...and if that's what I came across as doing, that wasn't my intention

On another note...is it possible to start another forum that is geared towards transitional raw foodists?

nadiarafi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I totally understand that...but I don't think I
> was attacking anybody's dietary/lifestyle choices
> tho...and if that's what I came across as doing,
> that wasn't my intention

No worries, I don't think we felt attacked or anything. I appreciate these discussions at times and where appropriate (prob. not here since it's vegan-friendly, which I love!) - if you never question anything, how will you learn? Obviously, some of us have questioned things and come to a conclusion that we feel is best for least harm towards other beings.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nadiarafi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I totally understand that...but I don't think I
> > was attacking anybody's dietary/lifestyle
> choices
> > tho...and if that's what I came across as
> doing,
> > that wasn't my intention
>
> No worries, I don't think we felt attacked or
> anything. I appreciate these discussions at times
> and where appropriate (prob. not here since it's
> vegan-friendly, which I love!) - if you never
> question anything, how will you learn? Obviously,
> some of us have questioned things and come to a
> conclusion that we feel is best for least harm
> towards other beings.


I find this to be increasingly true on most forums and it is the reason I'm bowing out of participating on most and electing to share my viewpoints solely on my blog. Forums in general seem to have taken on a policing type of energy. I am well aware these forums do have rules of posting which I respect, but I personally feel that at times they do indeed limit discussions that are getting to the heart of matters for some individuals. In the non-virtual world I'm all for being direct and listening to all sides of an argument or position, before making personal decisions or to even raise my awareness. I do not know everything even when I think I do. :-D There is a larger audience reading these forums who do not post that perhaps had the same question and are learning from the various yay or nay responses. I don't know if this will change...I know it cannot be easy moderating a forum, but this seems like a tricky aspect of it. I think unless someone is outright attacking someone or being obnoxious, then they should be allowed to speak. I didn't bring this up to start a coup on here or anything, just sharing my opinion.

Peace.
~RawAngel

Personally I'll go out on a limb and say I'd like to see more enforcement on the boards. For those who complain, the signs that this is a vegan forum are all over the place, in fact on every single page of every single thread are these words:

"This board is for the discussion of Vegan Living and Raw food related discussion"

Even so, when people miss this statement, several posters usually reply to the absent-minded individual saying, "this is a vegan forum". Many, such as Utopian Life, and others, are especially nice enough to explain some of the reasons why the forum's posters appreciate a vegan forum, but still the non-vegans persist!

Just as it would be disrespectful to go into a vegan restaurant with a bag of McDonald's (or 'respectfully killed' meat, no difference in this case) and proceed to sit down and eat your hamburger, it's disrespectful to come on a vegan board and say, "I love my 'organic' cheese. Boy this raw milk is tasty!" What's *not* disrespectful is to go in and say, "I want to learn more about the vegan diet, how do you ..."

I think most posters here are really very welcoming of questions and everyone answers to the best of their knowledge and experience. To that end, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with questions like, "How can I get over my cheese craving?" and "Where do you get protein/calcium?" etc. This is where the raw vegan support comes in. We are all happy to help you on your raw vegan journey.

There are a few seasoned posters here who are not vegan, but most of them are very respectful of the forum's rules. To that end, non-vegans are just as welcome as anyone else. The forum's rules only apply to the content of your posts, not to the content of your life.

nadiarafi, I hope we haven't scared you off. Please stick around and share your experiences.

Bryan, how can we avoid these debates in the future?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2008 03:25PM by birch.

nadiarafi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On another note...is it possible to start another
> forum that is geared towards transitional raw
> foodists?

There are forums where you can discuss non-vegan raw if that's what you mean. I run a forum over at [www.funkyraw.com] which is not 'policed'! Plus there is Sunfood forum, which is a little crazy but some good people over there: [www.sunfoodpages.com]

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]