What is the raw vegan stance on honeycomb? Anyone?

it is not vegan.

My understanding is that some people eat honey products and some people don't. Some food for thought:

[www.vegan.org]

[www.compassionatespirit.com]

[www.veganmeat.com]

Personally, I don't think it's worth arguing over. Discussing, yes. Arguing, no.

Are the bees harmed? Not fairly compensated for their labor? I don't know. I guess I would rather be a bee that has to part with honey than a cow who has to part with the flank steak... or leather jacket, or rump roast.

I don't think there is a consensus but most vegans seem to shy away from honey (and flank steak).

Careful! The raw food police might hear us typing... SSSHHHhhhhhh

I've heard for every spoon of honey, a bee dies.

I've never associated honey consumption so directly with death. Bees... =*(

Commercial honey production isn't good. The bees have all their honey taken away and they are fed sugar - enough said.

but I believe that very small honey farmers don't always do this. I have a friend who keeps a couple of hives and she always leaves enough of the bees own honey for them to eat. Her bees live a completely natural life, foraging for wild nectar and don't seem to object when she removes SOME of the honey.

I think Bryans info could be relating to big commercial set ups

I guess its an individual choice. I occasionally have a jar of my friends honey that I swop for gardening for her - it doesn't feel bad to me. I would never buy commercial honey though.

My take is that I personally avoid using anything that takes from, enslaves, or destroys animals or plants that would normally want to live free from my interference.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

It's not vegan. I know many "beegans" that are otherwise vegan but sometimes consume bee products. But by definition, not vegan.

gotcha...thanks guys

It's not vegan and I don't think it can be obtained in an ethical manner for a non-vegan to eat, since the bees don't make honey for humans; it's for themselves! I wish humans weren't so quick to always think everything is for them and to take, take, take. It's depressing.

It feels to me that at least part of the reason why honey comes up again and again in vegan circles is because some part of us knows that honey is sacred and created for the intent of sharing. This is what my intuition is telling me...there's a lost art of working with bees rather than against them...some beekeepers are aware of this. Many of them ask the bees to share their honey and they also establish a co-creative relationship with them in which they both benefit. The act of using bees for honey is often all our society is aware of in this regard, but there is a whole other way of going about it that deserves to be acknowledged. There is information out there on this...if you're interested, I encourage you to do some research.

Oh, so the bees verbally gave permission, according to this "relationship" that the beeexploiter feels exists?

Never forget that if we don't have bees, we don't have fruits... If we didn't have beekeepers, we wouldn't have enough bees around for a good pollination. On our place, we have beehives, to increase the pollination in the garden and the orchard. We feed them honey during the winter, their honey. We harvest the honey, and share with them in a way, since they produce way more than they use during the winter. A fair deal I think, in a way, they "pay" for housing and food (for all the plants and flowers in the garden).
But all beekeepers don't work the same way, and big commercial is bad. But isn't non organic, big commercial fruit and veggies as bad as well? Don't they enslave farm workers, and mainly mexican workers in California? Maybe when someone buys non organic produce they don't harm animals, but harm other human being...
PS: I run a small organic farm in Spain, and worked in organic farms in south California, so I met quite a few farm workers in CA...

Raw Fruit Festival
[www.raw-fruit-festival.net]
Health, Fitness and Fasting Retreats in Spain
[www.fit-in-nature.net]

sgc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If we didn't have beekeepers, we
> wouldn't have enough bees around for a good
> pollination.

I don't suppose you could prove that statement somehow? Looks like pure speculation to me.

There are fair-trade and organic fruits available......workers being paid unfair wages and being exposed to toxins does not HAVE to occur to obtain fruit. To obtain honey, people must steal it from the bees.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2008 10:09PM by Utopian Life.

Albert Einstein just said that without bees, humanity would have 3 years left on this planet.
Anyone working in a field knows that without bees, no pollination, no fruits. That's just common knowledge.
I never said that their is no fair trade fruits and veggies. Remember, I run a farm, organic, and I worked in organic farms in CA. I know what I'm talking about.
I just like people to think about their action twice. Harming bees by harvesting honey is done or not only depending the way the beekeeper works. Again, I know what I'm talking about, I have 10 hives, feed the bees with their honey, and make sure they have plenty of flowers around. Others don't.
Having concerns about bees is nice. But I want to bring to the attention of others that maybe they have concerns for bees, they should also have concerns for other human beings when they shop fruit and veggies non organic. Think about that.

Raw Fruit Festival
[www.raw-fruit-festival.net]
Health, Fitness and Fasting Retreats in Spain
[www.fit-in-nature.net]

whee, that's some justification going on there my friend. wow.

sgc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Albert Einstein just said that without bees,
> humanity would have 3 years left on this planet.
> Anyone working in a field knows that without bees,
> no pollination, no fruits. That's just common
> knowledge.
-------------------------------------------
UNFORTUNATELY, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TAKING THEIR HONEY. BEES EXIST, YES. JUST BECAUSE I AM AGAINST EXPLOITING THEM DOESN'T MEAN THAT I THINK THEY SHOULDN'T BE HERE. IN FACT, I ENJOY THEIR BEAUTY MORE THAN SOMEONE WHO CAN'T THINK PASSED THEIR OWN DESIRES WHEN THEY SEE OTHER ANIMALS' FOOD.

--------------------------
feed the bees with their honey
----------------------
UHM, WELL, GEE, HOW NICE OF YOU? I BET THEY COULDNT ACCOMPLISH THAT ON THEIR OWN!

/end sarcasm

If it's true we would only have three years left on this planet if the bees didn't exist, we might not have to wonder so much about how soon global warming may cause our demise. Bees are dying off at an alarming pace. :-(

I love the bees and I hope they can survive whatever is causing the problem for them (which is probably something we humans are doing/have done).

Lots of love,

Wendi
XOXO

Utopian Life Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------
> UNFORTUNATELY, THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TAKING
> THEIR HONEY. BEES EXIST, YES. JUST BECAUSE I AM
> AGAINST EXPLOITING THEM DOESN'T MEAN THAT I THINK
> THEY SHOULDN'T BE HERE. IN FACT, I ENJOY THEIR
> BEAUTY MORE THAN SOMEONE WHO CAN'T THINK PASSED
> THEIR OWN DESIRES WHEN THEY SEE OTHER ANIMALS'
> FOOD.
>
No offense, but I think that the term "exploiting" might be overstating in some case. In a permaculture idea, we live altogether with our environment and the animal around, sharing the goods from each others.

> --------------------------
> feed the bees with their honey
> ----------------------
> UHM, WELL, GEE, HOW NICE OF YOU? I BET THEY
> COULDNT ACCOMPLISH THAT ON THEIR OWN!
>
> /end sarcasm

Actually, during the winter, the bees would have a very hard time to maintain a sufficient temperature in the hive if the top part (where the honey is stored) is not removed because the total volume of the hive would be to much for them to warm up. A hive has a bottom part where the queen resides and where some honey is stored, but mainly where the queen lay eggs. Top parts are added during the blooming season for the bees to store honey, and remove in winter with the honey. If not, the swarm most likely dies from the cold... Remember, when you see 100 bees coming in and out of the hive, you have thousands in the hive regulating the temperature, either ventilating in summer or warming it up in winter.
More beekeepers than you think feed their bees with honey over the winter, because it keep the swarm stronger, just like for any thing else: good food = health. But not in big business where money is more important.
Same thing with fruit and veggies. Big commercial farm workers are not feed with top quality food if you want my opinion.

BTW, I wanted to say that I'm not telling anyone to eat or not honey or whatever. It's up to you. Personally, I don't even eat honey. I just want to show people that the vegan issue should not be focused on harming the animals or not so much. It goes well beyond that on the environmental issue of course (lower impact of the vegan diet compared to the carnivorous one), and on the social issue as well.
But the questions I'd like people to ask themselves are:
"Is a carnivorous riding a bike to work everyday really has a larger impact on the environment than a vegan driving a SUV?"
"Where goes most of the money I put in my food? To the farmer, to a big corporation, to the oil industry? Remember that all pesticides and herbicides are derived from petroleum."
But this goes away from the bee and honey issues.

Raw Fruit Festival
[www.raw-fruit-festival.net]
Health, Fitness and Fasting Retreats in Spain
[www.fit-in-nature.net]

sgc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW, I wanted to say that I'm not telling anyone
> to eat or not honey or whatever. It's up to you.
> Personally, I don't even eat honey. I just want to
> show people that the vegan issue should not be
> focused on harming the animals or not so much. It
> goes well beyond that on the environmental issue
> of course (lower impact of the vegan diet compared
> to the carnivorous one), and on the social issue
> as well.
> But the questions I'd like people to ask
> themselves are:
> "Is a carnivorous riding a bike to work everyday
> really has a larger impact on the environment than
> a vegan driving a SUV?"
> "Where goes most of the money I put in my food? To
> the farmer, to a big corporation, to the oil
> industry? Remember that all pesticides and
> herbicides are derived from petroleum."
> But this goes away from the bee and honey issues.


Well, I think you're making quite sweeping assumptions if you think that most vegans don't think of these things. Most vegans I know (this is over five) are also environmentalists and socially conscious/aware of human animal issues as well.

Also, I'm not vegan just because I'm against harming animals; I'm also against the commodification of animals.

"the commodification of animals..."

yes, there is the key issue for me.
once i saw a sign on an empty lot that this written on it

"DANGER"
Due To
_______
and on the blank line someone had writen Uncommodified Space.

which i thought was brilliant.

how in the world does anyone think that the bee can't care for itself in a natural way without the intervention of human beings? god/nature did not design a faulty system here, we are not key to the survival of any species on this planet (quite the opposite is true in fact, we are the End of many!). if ever human on the face of the earth suddenly disappeared it would be of tremendous benefit to every other living being here.
let me tell you, the bee does not need anything from us. it can be justified in many different ways, i am sure, but none of that changes the fact that our relationship with them is entirely one sided. we get all the benefit and they get nothing that they can't do without.

Ha! Yes. What did that show Earthlings call us? 'Species-ists'. We don't allow racism, or sexism, but species-ism is certainly ok.

-We believe at a fundamental level.....that it is OK to show a lesser degree of love and respect for anything that is not human....and this is to our detriment. It is just one more area where people narrow the doorway of love, acceptance, support and care.....and say HERE it is ok for me to have confinement, slavery, and/or death (when it comes to animals).

-Just my opinions.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

^But do you think that is part of the true human condition, or that an all-species love was lost over time?

Actually there was a study showing that a vegan driving an SUV was less harmful than an omni riding a bike. But most vegans I know are car-free, including myself.

[www.vegsource.com]

cool. i am car free too (neither do i fly in airplanes). it's pretty great though it could be better if there was a bus system here. i'll move to a town with a bus soon i think, it is my favourite mode of longer distance transpo with the kidlets.

yes David, narrowing the doorway to love. brilliant.

Humans were created, in my eyes, to learn how to co-exist with all other species on the planet. There is so much anger surrounding the way humans have been treating other animals that it's easy to believe we're a curse or a virus, but I feel it's simply due to forgetting who we truly are. We apart of life here, not separate from it. I feel it would be simply a matter of swinging the pendulum in the opposite direction if we were to cease any relationships we could have with other animals. It's easy to believe that we have nothing to give to other animals, but that's just because we don't realize our inherent value...it's been covered up by anger, shame and whatever else. I have read and heard of some amazing relationships between beekeepers and bees...if you ever want to learn about what it means to co-create with other living creatures then do some research.

Also, are any of you aware that antifreeze contains honey? How many vegans right now are driving around with antifreeze in their cars? :-)

You coudn't possibly be making the argument that a vegan with a car that uses antifreeze with honey (along with the tires and a whole slew of other things not being available vegan/animal-free) is the same thing as someone with boundless/limitless options for food, choosing instead to eat honey?

Please tell me you are not suggesting that..... *dizzy*

so.much.justification.

Vegans know plenty well that it is not possible to be 100% vegan--but whereever we can make a compassionate choice, we do it.