Conventional wisdom of a raw food diet says that enzymes are the key to energy - eat food with that has its enzymes intact, and you will experience vibrant health. Is it really just about the enzymes, though? I believe there's more to the story. If it were just about enzymes, then any SAD eater could overnight start eating just cucumbers and apples and feel fantastic forever and ever. However, we all know that it doesn't work this way. There is a TRANSITION when first going raw; then there are many raw foodists who still experience "down" days (not associated with actual negative events), and there are many long-term raw foodists who experience unpleasant effects such as weak digestion, bad teeth and hair falling out. I believe all of the above problems have a logical explanation and a solution: minerals. Let's take a look:

1. Transition. What is this all about? Why is there such a huge variance amongst individuals as to what constitutes "transition". I used to think that the reason I needed to eat alot of high fat and dark green foods when I first went raw (salads with tahini and seaweeds, etc.) was that my body needed heavy foods when transitioning off cooked in order to feel satiety. Dr. Gabriel Cousens offers the same dietary model but his explanation is based on his research with yeast and cancer. I now believe there is a simpler and more logical explanation: Most people on a Western diet are so mineral-depleted, that to go straight to a diet of cucumbers and apples would not solve their main underlying problem: mineral deficiency. High-fat raw foods and dark greens tend to be very high in minerals; high-water content foods tend to be very low. Once the minerals are replenished, then the body starts craving more watery foods such as oranges, melon, etc., and starts feeling a repulsion towards mineral-rich foods (minerals directly affect heart function; therefore an overdose can be very dangerous).

2. "Down" days. Sadness, tiredness, moodiness, irritabilty, fatigue, listlessness. Many raw foodists still experience these symptoms off and on (such as I did for the first year and a half I was raw), and the experience can be frustrating and baffling because simply being raw is supposed to solve these things. Of course, sadness is a natural part of life due to life events, but I'm referring to feeling down for no logical reason. Why does this happen? Well, any deficiency or overdose of any minerals will cause one or more of the above symptoms. And getting the correct mineral balance can be very complicated and tricky at first - but now when I experience any ups & downs, my first thought is "ok what mineral imbalance could I be experiencing right now?" I can usually straighten myself out pretty quickly. It's difficult to master, but also very empowering.

3. Long-term raw foodists (usually fruitarians) who experience unpleasant symptoms such as weak digestion, bad teeth, and hair falling out. Again, these are all symptoms of mineral deficiency. Interestingly, weak digestion can create a downward spiral towards lighter foods which can exacerbate the problem. This happened to me until I was eating nothing but romaine salads and oranges because I couldn't digest anything else. Finally I forced myself to eat spinach (the idea of which sounded awful but as soon as I started eating it I couldn't stop). It worked, fixed my digestion & bloat issues. Re-mineralizing my body has strengthened my digestion.

Therefore, for these reasons and several others, I believe the enzyme theory of raw is not sufficient to guarantee success on the diet. I think that the addition of a mineral theory is the missing piece of the puzzle that will answer peoples' outstanding bewilderments on why they're having problems despite eating a raw food diet.

I would also like to research these ideas in a completely scientific way so as to be able to actually PROVE some of these things - so if this sounds fun to anyone with a doctorate degree, call me! Or just do the research on your own - I don't need the credit, I just want people to be able to feel their best (but I do think it would be fun to do the research!).

xoxo
Sunshine



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2008 03:20PM by sunshine79.

Hi Sunshine,
your post sound interesting. I realize that if I have craving (I mostly have cravings for sweets), I am probably lacking some component that my body needs. But I feel like I can never figure out what that missing component is. How do you figure that out?
I'm not 100% raw yet (I'm guessing so far 95%) and I don't have a doctorate degree. But I would like to help with your research (I am a scientist after all - molecular biologist and electrophysiologist). How would you like to run this "project"?

This is the reason I am interested in a doctorate degree, myself. It is very easy to believe a book about raw food with success stories - anything with success stories is easy to believe but isn't always sound proof. Just because a person got better is not always because of the reasons they believe. I started getting an idea of what you're mentioning now about minerals and vitamins because I just..think all the time. I'm not one to side with anything completely and when following 80/10/10 for a month I just didn't feel right most of the time I was doing it-this included mentally, I felt like I was following someone else's discovery and I wanted to figure out my own diet; I guess i'm not one to enjoy feeling reliant. I mean I still am partly following it, and it's wierd, because I'm getting all the symptoms of Vitamin C overdose (like the wart disappearing on my thumb - or often people explaining their moles or other skin issues clearing up- that's the biological explanation of getting vitamin C finally! - not the magic of enzymes or pure food - this and other things happend and I am continuing to find sound scientific evidence of why) as I had researched. And I fear what will come with winter for not getting enough sun and vitamin D will most likely deplete my calcium intake. I have not yet looked at those effects in detail. I do believe some people jump into this too fast and think they are experts too quick (I mean, I felt pretty enlightened when I discovered it), just because it seems to be working for them. There are plenty of people out there not on raw food and on correct mineral and vitamin balances that are living better then certain raw foodists. This is not to mention the fact that some of the raw food theories never argue in depth the very intense studies of the human body of the most respectable scientists today. So..it's very hard to figure things out, no doubt, when you are talking with people that only accept one side so soundly when there is always that chance in everything that it could be not true. I just think everyone needs to take a look at the diet and not argue on it, but talk, converse, discuss -- if someone really wanted to figure it out and not just find an easy way out, they would care about what everyone had to say. And I want to know the truth, though I know that's near impossible, no one knows the truth; but I would like to feel my greatest and not get direction from someone whom I don't even know, i.e. an author of a diet book - I would like to look at it my own way, would love to learn about the effect on minerals and vitamins and other things that have yet to find themselves as theories in my brain. So please share all the information on minerals that you have. What is a days worth of minerals balanced out, would you say? I hear mostly dark greens and vegetables. What are some good fall and winter choices? All we get here is squash galore..

> "there are many long-term raw foodists who experience unpleasant effects such
> as weak digestion, bad teeth and hair falling out. I believe all of the above
> problems have a logical explanation and a solution: minerals."

Any longterm rawfoodists experience this? All I hear is that DZM's hair is thicker than his younger brothers'.

> Once the minerals are replenished, then the body starts craving more watery
> foods such as oranges, melon, etc., and starts feeling a repulsion towards
> mineral-rich foods

I agree, this is why we differ on the idea of diets, the high-greens diet seems repulsive to some and the sweet fruits diet seems repulsive to others. I think this is a perfect example of what "listening to your body" is and why only we can create our own diet plans.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2008 05:12PM by Lillianswan.

Quote

I am probably lacking some component that my body needs. But I feel like I can never figure out what that missing component is.

The way this happens for me is that very suddenly I know what I want to eat and I know its a true signal because thats the only thing I want to eat at that moment and Its for food that I know is good for me not a craving for some junk that I ate when I ate SAD food. I just had that experience and as I was cutting the apple I thought about this post and it was very clear to me how my body communicates its needs to me. Frequently my body just signals slight hunger with no instant mental thought about what and I figure that my body is just looking for some carbs to run on but once in awhile it gets very specific and I know what it wants at the speed of thought.

Sunshine

I think that you are on to something with the minerals..When Western scientists first studied the Hunza peoples living high up in the Himalayan mountains to try & determine why they had such a high ratio of people living into their 80's, 90's, & 100's they came to the following conclusions..

1. Their hearts were substantially larger (some were 50-60% larger than people living at lower altitudes) due to being born & living the majority of their lives at altitudes higher than 13,000 feet above sea level..They had more blood in their bodies & their hearts pumped it through their veins & arteries a greater number of times per day (per lifetime) which oxygenated their blood to greater levels than other humans..This meant that any waste products produced by the normal metabolic functions of their bodies were eliminated more quickly..

2. They ate a diet extremely low in red meat..This lack of red meat consumption was offset by a high level of daily consumption of dairy in the form of fermented yak butter mixed with roasted barley (sometimes wheat) flour..This is called tsampa & is more or less the national food of Tibet..They also ate a diet with a high percentage of vegetables in it..

3. By virtue of having almost no modern amenities their daily lives were filled with constant vigorous exercise, all of which was performed at very high altitudes..

This final point is most important to this discussion..

4. All of their water that they cooked with, drank, & watered their gardens & crops with was obtained practically at the foot of the massive glaciers that filled the Himalayan mountains..The water was milky white in color due to the high mineral content contained in the extremely fine rock dust suspended in the water..This suspended colloidal rock dust contained hundreds of different mineral compounds, most in minute quantities..This water was electrically charged with ions & "alive" in a way that the water coming out of a tap from a treatment plant cannot possibly be..

I believe that you have hit the nail directly on the head Sunshine as regards to modern human health (all humans), & why the transitioning process is sometimes so problematic for aspiring raw vegans..Our soils in most of the Western world are terribly depleted of minerals..The foods grown in these soils are thus mineral depleted, offering less than optimal ratios of minerals for human health..

I've been kind of hinting around this subject ever since I became a member of this forum, & now I'm going to come right out & say what I think plainly..

Until the way food is grown planet wide drastically changes, any person desiring to be a truly successful long-term raw vegan is going to have to decide to give up some of the amenities that fill our modern lives..They will have to do this in order to purchase & settle on to a piece of land, rehabilitate & replenish the soil of that land, & grow as much of their yearly supply of organic fruits & vegetables as is possible for them to do so..In many instances this will mean moving away from where they were born & from friends & family in order to accomplish this.

As raw vegans we have to stop putting our faith & our money into the grocery stores..The plain truth of the matter is that by the time a person purchases produce from a grocery store, that produce is at LEAST three times removed from the farmer that grew it..In some cases it might be as much as 5-6 times removed from the farmer that grew it..This means that the purchaser CANNOT possibly know what the quality of the produce is, much less whether or not it is organic..

As raw vegans we MUST know with absolute certainty that the fruits & vegetables that we put into our mouths are healthy, vital, grown in humus rich, mineral rich, enzyme rich organic soil that is teeming with biologic life..

When I look at someone like Richard Blackman I see an inspiration for a 54-year old man such as myself..I read his posts here on the Living & Raw Foods forum, as well as on his website & I marvel at what he has been able to accomplish transitioning from a diet of cooked, dead foods into one of raw fruits & vegetables..

And, I think to myself, "How much EASIER would his transitioning process have been had ALL of the produce that he purchased & ate been 100% organic with the proper mineral & enzyme contents for that particular fruit or vegetable??"..

The only conclusion that I can come to is this:

If a raw vegan in the year 2008 had access to the diversity of fruit & vegetable cultivars that were available for purchase in the year 1908, and if that produce was grown in mineral rich, enzyme rich, humus rich, fully organic soil that was teeming with biologic life; then the nutritive value of that produce would be from 5-100 times the nutritive value of the same produce available for purchase today in the average grocery store here in the United States..

I base this conclusion on 20-plus years of organic gardening on small plots of land in cities..I base this conclusion on how my body reacts to eating a freshly picked fruit or vegetable that was living only seconds before I ate it..

The sad fact of the matter is that most of the produce in our grocery stores has very little nutritive value..This is true for organic produce as well as produce grown using petrochemical methods of farming..By the time a raw vegan purchases produce from a grocery store that produce is seldom less than 4-5 days old..All produce begins to lose nutritive value the second that it is picked due to decomposition..Even the finest organic produce grown in the richest soils has far less nutritive value 5-10 days after it was picked, as opposed to when it was freshly picked..

Most people shop once a week..If the produce that you purchase is 4-5 days old when you purchase it, how much nutritive value can it still contain after it sits on your counter, or in your refrigerator for an additional 1-7 days??..The answer is, much less nutritive value then when it was freshly picked..This is especially true for "conventional" produce as its nutritive value is less than organic produce..

Anyone doubting these statements has only to purchase a Brix refractometer & test the produce that you purchase to eat for its Brix value..Test it when you first purchase it, & test it for every day that it sits in your refrigerator, or on your counter..You will be amazed at how little nutritive value our produce has..

I urge every raw vegan to start an organic garden so as to empower yourselves..John Jeavons estimates that it takes approximately 1,200 square feet of fertile, organic soil in a well-established farm or garden per adult person in temperate climates in order to grow a years supply of fruits & vegetables for a cooked food diet..Regardless of how small your organic garden might be, it will be a positive step in the right direction..

It is my estimation based on my personal experiences, as well as the anecdotal evidence I have read on this forum (and others) that long-term raw vegan health will absolutely depend on having access to organic produce that has a well-balanced enzyme & mineral content..It must be grown in biologically active soil rich in humus..It must be consumed as soon after it is picked as possible..

The only practical way to accomplish this is to grow the produce yourself, or to purchase it from local farmers that have reputations that are above reproach..A combination of these two approaches will be necessary for most raw vegans..Getting one's produce from the grocery store is only going to work for the early stages of a raw vegan's life..After the body & mind reach a certain level of "cleanliness" the mind & body will require fruits & vegetables with a higher nutritive value..

This is how I see things as of the year 2008..I reserve the right to change my mind if evidence to the contrary becomes available..

Bruce

I've not experienced the symptoms associated with long term Fruitarians, infact the opposite...I spent years getting my teeth bashed in while playing pro rugby and going Fruitarian actually saved my teeth.

Also there are a lot of successful long time Fruitarians that do not experience these symptoms also but you never hear about them unless they announce it, unfortunately the ones that have the worst health are the ones that get the attention.

Juss ma 2 cents.

RB

I think the mere act of getting off of cooked food is the key to vibrant health and longevity, in my opinion raw food only gives you what it needs to help digest what your eating.

RB

very interesting thoughts herer.

I was talking to someone and she told me about a elderly man who was not feeling well so he obtained some raw milk and began drinking it he started to feel much better so he felt it was the raw milk. She told me he insists she obtain raw milk and start drinking it for her health. I had just read a book on enzyme's and the raw milk cure was mentioned and the fact that it was the enzymes not the milk that made this man feel better. The elderly man was sure it was the raw milk rather than the live enzymes that was making him feel better.

I was fortunate this summer to obtain a local grown red bell pepper. I was craving the bell peppers and ate the gem, yum, it was so tasty, I noticed such a diference in comparison to the store bought peppers. The store bought ones tasted like water they had no flavor. I am sure they had very little nutrition value as well. After that I really noticed the difference with the store bought foods. I do agree wwe are not getting enough nutrients in the store bought foods.

This is a very interesting thought on mineral depletion.

after reading a bit, it seems maybe people crave salty foods and stuff with added flavor/fat like butter is because the produce is so poorly mineralized (not organic, not grown locally/fresh) or just not good quality and lacks the correct fresh taste that most people crave? hhhhmm

that mineralized water sounds good! I think thats what well water contains?
A larger heart would mean a shorter life though, wouldn't it?..just look at the cheetah and it's huge chest/massive heart - doesn't live long for that reason (off topic, but you know, just watching some animal planet the other day..)

Quote

after reading a bit, it seems maybe people crave salty foods

I have found that for me having some celery juice made from one bunch of celery once a day keeps my cravings and runaway appetite under control. Maybe its the natural salt in the celery that my body craves on a daily basis or maybe its something else in there, but on the days that I miss having my fresh celery juice I want to eat the house.

The problem of mineral deficient soils has to be a spectrum problem. Would orchards, where the soil has not been plowed for decades and the leaves decompose into soil, be considered mineral deficient at all? Fruit that grows on vines would probably be in the middle of the mineral defiecient spectrum. And then the annual plants would probably be grown in the most mineral deficient soils.

So tree fruits are probably being grown in the best soils.

an opinion....

firstly, the enzyme theory of raw is not a valid reason/justification imo, so coming up with a counter theory to it is sort of a straw woman.

secondly,

certainly our foods could be more nutritious...

however, if you use the usda figures, which average the analysis taken from the past years produce, you will find that it does in fact CONTAIN SUFFICIENT MINERALS.

there are many successful long term vegans. i am one. i prefer not to put myself out there and try to prove anything, but there are many including richard and doug and many others.

so my feeling is that the reason for problems is simply the way people practice the diet especially not eating all fresh food, which leads to cravings, and instead people succumbing to old (non deficiency caused) cravings. and not enough attention to things other than food.

i just did the analysis based on the excellent text from the world health organization's numbers for requirements.

finally, many of us have access to incredible variety of foods of high quality, in some cases higher variety than what would be our local environment.

this is not to deny that many practicing raw vegans have difficulty with access to sufficient quality/quantity food and this plays a role in problems sustaining it - but this does not negate what i believe is the validity of the diet and the relative ease by which many can thrive on it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2008 05:41PM by fresh.

No one is saying that your diet is the wrong diet; but maybe people -have- tried possibly as hard or done near the same thing as you or some other and not seen results; maybe they haave

you can't just assume that everyone should be able to do it, because you can; there are long term omnivores who are doing well, but that doesn't mean their diet is superior either (doesn't mean it's not)

Come on, don't get offended; if you have found your nitch, cool, share how you found it- but you just said yourself that raw vegans have trouble with sufficient quality food. It may be easy for you, dude, but I can't get much organic here and it's difficult to expand on the east coast as much as I could in a warmer area with more fruit variety/more local and organic produce; it could be past experience but I had been vegan for atleast a year before I found raw and I'm also a teen so I didn't think the transition would cause that much - but I have gotten some interesting and unwanted side effects. I haven't blamed it on anything, no not raw food, ofcourse I think raw is great and 80/10/10 is a good idea in a way, but I haven't said it's the right thing to do for everyone - I certainly am still looking for the right thing which will make me feel my best

Anyway..just because there are some long term raw vegans does not mean someone is doing it wrong. They just haven't found their complete food agenda yet and what they're comfortable with. People have brains too, and experiences, and I assume this has great ties with food, and it's important the mind is satisfied as the body is to make a happy little person. If it was easy, you'd see more people thriving

iLIVE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No one is saying that your diet is the wrong diet;
> but maybe people -have- tried possibly as hard or
> done near the same thing as you or some other and
> not seen results; maybe they haave
>

maybe

> you can't just assume that everyone should be able
> to do it, because you can; there are long term
> omnivores who are doing well, but that doesn't
> mean their diet is superior either (doesn't mean
> it's not)
>
> Come on, don't get offended;

i'm not offended


thanks for sharing.. good points.

cool

The thing about our modern system of growing food is that variety as far as cultivars has been reduced drastically compared to when I was a child..

There is a greater variety of fruits & vegetables available for purchase in our grocery stores in the year 2008 as far as differing species are concerned compared to the year 1960, when I was 6 years old..But, the number of cultivars within each species that is available for purchase has been reduced to a select few; down from the dozens & dozens (sometimes hundreds) of cultivars that were once grown..

Let us take apples, for example..Here in Baltimore, Maryland where I live..

It is true that grocery stores in 1960 only stocked & sold about 10-12 kinds of apples over the course of a harvest season here locally..But, anyone that desired a greater number of apple choices could easily find those other apple cultivars in any number of places besides a grocery store..There were hundreds of roadside stands within Baltimore City, & the adjacent counties..There were orchards just outside of the city-county line..Some of these orchards in 1960 grew 30-50 different cultivars of apples..The fresh-squeezed un-pasteurized apple cider had an incomparable taste that I have yet to see duplicated by modern orchards..There were hundreds, if not thousands of small mom-and-pop produce stores/stands where fresh local produce was sold..I estimate that within a 1-2 hour drive from the center of Baltimore City there were at LEAST 200-300 different apple cultivars being grown on local orchards..

Large scale farming & the desire of chain grocery stores to have a reliable, year round supply of PREDICTABLE produce has led to the demise of 99% of those orchards & the places that sold those apples..The orchards that still remain in the state of Maryland now grow modern apples (about 12-18 varieties) that ship well, & that have predictable harvests..The older apple cultivars are practically extinct, if not actually so..

Each one of those apple cultivars that no longer can be purchased had a distinct taste & texture..They came into harvest as early as late July to early August, & as late as early November..The apples that I ate as a child came from all over the state of Maryland..The sugar content, the starch content, the enzyme content, the mineral content of these apples varied depending upon the cultivar..It varied depending upon the soil make-up & the environmental conditions (water, sun, etc.) that the tree encountered during it's growing season..A MacIntosh apple grown on the Eastern Shore of Maryland was slightly different in taste, texture, & nutritive content from one grown in Garrett County..

Modern orchardists, regardless of where they are located geographically within the United States, are encouraged to grow their apples to certain standards so that the differences that once existed are minimalized..This standardization is what keeps the Fuji apple sold in Bangor, Maine tasting almost exactly the same as the one sold in Barstow, California..The nutritive value of the apples, if tested, would be far more similar than if the apples were grown locally..

This homogenization of our produce supply translates across every kind of fruit & vegetable being marketed in ALL of our grocery stores throughout the entire United States..It is only when you purchase from local farmers that are thinking & farming out of the box that you can get away from this homogenization..Or, if you chose to grow your own food organically..

100 years ago there was no such thing as petrochemical farming..It really only came into being post-World War II..Before the advent of petrochemical farming there was ONLY organic farming..It is how humans grew their food since the beginnings of organized agriculture..

I don't care what any of the people that try to diminish the importance of eating organically grown produce say..It IS more important than a lot of people want to admit to..

I will be the first to admit that eating raw fruits & vegetables, whether they are organic or conventional, is of the utmost importance..At some point, not ingesting the petrochemicals that are in & on ALL petrochemically grown produce is equally important..

That more long-term raw vegans do not eat organic speaks more to the dearth of available organic produce, than to a rational choice to eat petrochemically grown produce over organic..

Bruce

The things that I wrote about concerning apples in the above post also apply to virtually all species of fruits & vegetables now available for sale in the United States..This applies, as well, to tropical & temperate fruits & vegetables being grown in other parts of the planet for export sale to the United States & other countries wealthy enough to import produce..

Large-scale farming is concerned with the following factors in mind..

Large-scale farmers want to maximize the amount of profit from each pound of food grown on each acre of land..To this end, the cultivars grown are chosen for size & weight at the time of harvest to maximize the tonnage per acre, & thus the amount of profit per acre of food grown..

Cultivars are chosen for the ability to ripen during shipment as the majority of all food sold today in grocery stores in the USA is picked unripe..

Cultivars are chosen for the ability to ship long distances over several days or weeks while sustaining the least amount of damage that will preclude a customer from purchasing it when it is finally sold..

The absolute last factor to be considered when choosing a cultivar to plant is nutritive value & taste..Modern cultivars that have been bred to enhance the above three factors generally have poor taste..This is why so many of these fruits, & especially vegetables, have had enhanced sugar genes bred into or spliced into their DNA..Without the sugar gene these fruits & vegetables would have little appeal to humans for food..

Other than the weather, modern farmers generally only concern themselves with five things when growing a crop..They worry about the nitrogen (N), the phosphorus (P), & the potassium (K) in the fertilizers that they apply to their soils..They worry about insect pests & diseases, & the chemicals needed to keep these in check..The lowest number of chemicals applied to the soil for any modern crop is the N,P,K from fertilizer..The number of species world wide that can be grown on a large-scale basis this way can be counted on the fingers of two hands with several digits left over..Most crops need at least 3-4 kinds of poison applied to them over the course of a growing season..Some of the crops most heavily affected by insects & diseases need as many as 30, yes thirty, different chemical compounds applied to them in order to get the crop to market..

There is no doubt that gigantic strides towards a healthier life can be accomplished by switching from eating cooked foods to eating raw fruits & vegetables..Like I mentioned in the above post, in the beginning of this transition it probably makes little difference whether or not the aspiring raw vegan chooses to eat conventionally-grown produce, or organically-grown produce..The person's body will be clamoring for change so badly that it will gladly accept any kind of raw produce..At some point, & this will be different for each individual, their bodies will start to NEED fruits & vegetables that are free of man-made poisons..

I do not care what anyone says, willingly ingesting man-made poisons through the food that you eat, regardless of how minute the traces of those poisons might be, is not the act of a rational thinking being..There are AT LEAST 250,000 chemical compounds in existence in the year 2008 than there were in the year 1954 when I was born..In my life time I have come into intimate contact, knowingly & unknowingly, with tens of thousands of these chemicals..The effect of this exposure has to have been considerable..

As the saying goes, "For every action, there is an equal & opposite reaction"..Every chemical that the human body comes into contact with necessitates the body to formulate a response to that chemical..IMO, eliminating the poisons that are used to petrochemically grow the majority of the food that is for sale in the United States from our food supply should be a top priority for every raw vegan..

If tomorrow 5 million people in the United States suddenly started growing 50% of their yearly food supply themselves organically the effect to the petrochemical food chain would be immediate & would hit them very hard in their wallets..

As raw vegans we have to realize that at some point we are going to have to choose between organically-grown produce & petrochemically-grown produce..Right now the choice seems easy..There is so little organic produce available for purchase, & the cost of this organic produce is so much higher than the conventional produce; that the majority of the raw vegan community has chosen to downplay & minimize the importance of organic produce..

The only way to know for SURE that what you eat is organic is to grow it yourself..

Most modern humans are far removed from our rural agricultural ancestors..Those that are only 1-2 generations removed probably have memories of how difficult a life that farming could be..The reality is that anyone that chooses to grow a substantial portion of their yearly food supply organically is going to have to radically change the way that they live their lives..Having 5000-6000 square feet of garden under cultivation for a raw vegan family of 4 is going to require a new way of thinking & living..A gardener on this scale cannot just pick up & go away for days, or weeks, at a time & expect to return home & find their garden just humming along with everything fine & dandy..For a garden such as this to function at its peak requires the same attention to detail that raising a child does..

This I see as the major stumbling block for why more people, raw vegans & others, are not gardening organically..We have become spoiled & accustomed to the luxury of just doing whatever we want, whenever we want..We do not want to have to work to produce or create what we want ourselves; we want the luxury of paying someone else to produce or create what we want..An organic garden that would supply 50%, or more, of a raw vegans yearly produce is just too much of a crimp in the lifestyles that most of us have grown used to..

Whether most of us wish to admit it, or not, there is a large social stigma to being a farmer..In the minds of many Americans it would be a step backwards to become a mini-farmer or large-scale gardener..This is a second reason that I feel is keeping many otherwise insightful people from pursuing a large organic garden..

Bruce



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2008 04:39PM by baltochef.

Hey Bruce, have any advice for starting a garden? I don't really know how to grow or manage anything and I'm interested

iLIVE

I need more info from you if I am going to give you proper advice..

Where do you live??..
How is the climate where you live??..
What growing zone (North America) do you live in??..
What is your annual average rainfall??..
Are there micro climates in your zone that might dictate the fruits & vegetables that it is possible to grow??..
Do you live on a piece of land that you own, or that you can reliably rent for a long period of time??..
Or, are you still in the moving about stages of your life??..
How many square feet is available on this property for cultivation??..Or available to convert to food cultivation??..
What goals as far as growing your own organic fruits & vegetables do you have??..
How willing would you be to subordinate any of your current activities to the 6-10 month long growing season in your zone??..

If you live in North America a lot of the above information can be had for free from the local Agricultural Extension Agent for your state or province..The rest you already know, or can obtain with a measuring tape & a little time..

Now is the perfect time to start planning a garden for 2009..

Regardless of your desires, wants, needs, I would advise starting out small..How small I will be better able to advise you after you provide more information..

Books that I have found helpful are:

Saving seeds----Seed to Seed by Suzanne Ashworth
Starting seeds----The New Seed Starters Handbook by Nancy Bubel
General gardening----The Vegetable Gardener's Bible by Ed Smith
General gardening----All New Square Foot Gardening by Mel Bartholomew
General gardening----How to Grow More Vegetables by John Jeavons
General gardening----Four-Season Harvest by Eliot Coleman
General gardening----The New Organic Grower by Eliot Coleman
Root cellars----Root Cellaring: Natural Cold Storage of Fruits & Vegetables by Mike & Nancy Bubel
Pest & diseases----The Organic Gardener's Handbook to Natural Insect & Disease Control by Barbara Ellis (editor) & Fern Marshall Bradley (editor)--Editors for Organic Gardening Magazine

The Peaceful Valley Farm & Garden Supply Company catalogs are great resources for organic gardeners & farmers..

[www.groworganic.com]

I look forward to additional information so I can be of more help..

Bruce

Great posts, Bruce -- you are hitting the nail on the head. It is tough to be a farmer, but I think, as a farmer, the stigma is going away and being replaced with appreciation -- in some areas. I have lived in California most of my life, and farmed there, where, unfortunately, most people are uninterested or only slightly interested in the merits of organics, soil nourishment in a true sense, etc. In Massachusetts, where I moved two and a half years ago, people in general tend to take these concepts more seriously. There is more appreciation for food organically grown in really healthy soil. It's pretty exciting, and as people all over start to think more about it, farmers are going to be more appreciated. I feel like the farming paradigm is shifting. I hope it is!

Hey sunshine79,

I definitely agree that minerals are a very important factor to good health, and generally lacking in people at large. It would be great to look into it in more detail, I'm sure there have already been many studies looking at minerals in relation to malnutrition, establishing sensible RDAs, etc... One of my vague longer term projects is to look at these things in more depth from a technical point of view, like you described. I'm not an expert on these matters, and don't have much time at present, but would certainly enjoy working on a project like this part time, on a fairly laid back, long term manner. Maybe the best place to start is to look at the literature referencing RDAs, I think arugula would know quite a lot about that. Anyway, it would be quite educational for me at least.

Cheers,
J

Well, first off, I'm 17 and going to college soon so I definitely am going to start off small haha

I live in central NC, east coast of USA
the precipitation for november in my area is 3 inches and the monthly snowfall is .1 inches (annual average rainfall = 46.49 inches)

i looked up the "USDA Hardiness Zone" and it appears to be 7a/7b - what's this mean?
is that also the climate zone?

what specifically is important about climate?

I would like to be able to grow lettuce and tomatoes; any other vegetables like summer squash perhaps at first. I want to expand my options as much as i can after I can learn some more.

I plan on going to college in CA so hopefully there I can grow some nice fruit or get it locally.

Thankyou for the book choices!

Maybe I should make a new post haha

Well, if you plan on attending college directly after graduating from high school in 2009 I would recommend the square foot method of gardening as a start..Will anyone else in your family will be willing to use the beds after you go off to college??..If not, they can be easily disassembled & the space returned to whatever it was before you converted it to a raised bed..Start with as many 4' x 4' beds as you think you can handle..

The summer squash , which would ordinarily require an entire 4' x 4' square foot raised bed if grown on the ground, can easily be trained to climb a trellis placed on one side of the 4 foot square box..Just look for seeds of vining squash, as opposed to bush varieties..I recommend the heavy steel fence posts that you use to hang wire mesh fencing on, as well as 6" x'4", or 6" x 6" wire mesh fencing..Squash & cucumbers, along with the plants themselves, are heavy so the really benefit from the extra support of the steel post & the wire mesh fencing..

Another benefit is that in my experience plants tend to react & grow favorably to the negatively charged ions in the atmosphere that are attracted to the steel posts & fencing during & after thunderstorms..

Grab a copy of The New Square Foot Gardening by Mel Bartholomew & build yourself some beds..If you can afford to (& your not going to have to disassemble them come fall) make them 11" to 15" deep (2- 2x6's or 2- 2x8's tall)..Right now would be best..Rototill the soil if you can after skimming the sod off down to the roots of the grass..Place the sod off to the side for the time being..Dig out the soil inside of the beds to a depth of 6"..Place the sod in the bottom of the excavated 4" x 4' holes UPSIDE DOWN (roots facing up)..Place a layer of regular newsprint (no color) 10-12 layers thick over the sod..Fit the raised bed frames into place surrounding the hole, making sure it stays level..Fill in the hole & the bed with the balance of the soil, removing any large rocks & debris..If you are dealing with Carolina clay add several 4-6 cubic foot bales of peat moss, coir fiber (similar to peat moss but from coconuts), coarse builder's sand that is washed clean (no salt), & as many leaves that you can rake up & shred by running over them with a gas lawnmower..Mix all of these things together (whatever you can afford or scrounge) until they are fairly well mixed, does not have to be perfect..If you have more material than the bed holds, pile it up as this soil mixture is going to settle 3-6" over the balance of the winter..If you really want to do things right plant a cover crop of a fast growing legume..I'd check with your local Agricultural Extension Agent or Master Gardener (volunteers sanctioned by your state's agricultural agency) to see if you still have time to establish a cover crop..If not, cover everything with a thick layer of mulch (NOT wood chips of ANY kind), & let things rest until it is time to plant in Spring..

Bruce

cool, thanks for the advice

Fantastic comprehensive instructions, baltochef. Thanks!

I should have mentioned that I always recommend a comprehensive soil test performed by a lab that specializes in ORGANIC farming..This way you will know what amendments to apply..Rock powders, limestone, kelp meal, cottonseed meal, etc..

Without the soil test, EVERYTHING that you do to amend & enrich the soil will be more or less, hit or miss..Some things will work, many others will not; & some will even push you in a backwards direction..Been there, done that!!..

With the test you can shave YEARS off the learning process & be totally specific in turning ordinary, depleted soil into rich, biologically-active organic soil capable of growing insanely delicious fruits & vegetables..

Bruce

It is important to maintain balance between fruit and vegetables °__°

When I am craving fruit or seaweeds and repulsed by greens or veggies, I need more minerals, high in fruit. When I am craving greens/veggies and repulsed by fruit I need more vitamins, high in vegetables. Obviously, all fruit and all vegetables contain sufficient amino acids. Do not forget:-)

Only weight resistant exercise can build and maintain strong muscles -__-
Only scientific muscle stretching/yoga can keep us flexible -__-
Only unprocessed, raw foods keep us healthy ~__~

Alkaline Al

With all the waste that has been dumped into an onto this lans via factories and even the military going back 40-50 years, I think there a few areas where the soil is "ideal" and even if the foods are grown oragnically the may be growing over a radiation dump or something. We all do the best we can, but it'll never be like it was pre 1030s. Sad.


Lillianswan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem of mineral deficient soils has to be a
> spectrum problem. Would orchards, where the soil
> has not been plowed for decades and the leaves
> decompose into soil, be considered mineral
> deficient at all? Fruit that grows on vines would
> probably be in the middle of the mineral
> defiecient spectrum. And then the annual plants
> would probably be grown in the most mineral
> deficient soils.
>
> So tree fruits are probably being grown in the
> best soils.


WendySmiling in Oklahoma
www.16weeks2health.blogspot.com
12/17/10.......240/155/125

Great post Sunshine. Appreciate your thoughts. Certainly makes you go "hmmm".