Hello! I'm in Ohio and looking for the best raw honey for alergies. Can anyone recommend a resource?

Thanks
Tanya

sorry, this is a vegan site and as such this topic is off limits here. you could try another raw site that isn't totally vegan for info. good luck!

coco Wrote:
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> sorry, this is a vegan site and as such this topic
> is off limits here. you could try another raw site
> that isn't totally vegan for info. good luck!

Are you a moderator on this board? I didn't see anything in the TOS about this being a no honey site. I think a discussion about the honey debate in the vegan community would be a lot more interesting than mindlessly bouncing someone who's looking for raw honey to treat a problem. What about offering an alternate solution to allergies? I don't do honey myself, but I'd still like to hear what other people have to say on the topic. I'd like to see it treated with some patient intellect. I feel that would be a lot more in line with the stated goals of peace, understanding, and education in the TOS than basically saying; "you did something wrong, take it elsewhere."

it's been debated here many times and deemed off limits on this site. there are lots of other raw sites that allow discussion of honey but this isn't one of them. it's not a case of a poster having done something wrong by asking, it's just nipping it in the bud so there isn't another flame war over it here (been there, done that).

Since when is it off limits to discuss honey? It wasn't deemed off limits a few days ago:

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

This is certainly a vegan board, and as such, discussion of animal products is not encouraged (even though the moderator will usually allow a respectful post) . There are many other forums to discuss these items - of course. Coming on to a vegan board to ask for animal product solutions is not...uhh...the most logical thing.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

brian did chime in right away with a little something about how honey = death to bees. in the past this topic has resulted in some nasty arguements so sometimes an old time poster (me, david, etc) will just step in and gently remind that it's not something that this forum supports. really, it's just an effort on our parts to keep the board running smoothly (aka not deteriorate into a name calling bash fest, at one point things got very ugly here over a honey debate). that's all, no censoring agenda or anything, just redirecting to another forum where the topic is welcome.

<< of course. Coming on to a vegan board to ask for animal product solutions is not...uhh...the most logical thing. >>

Sure, but that was not what was said in previous posts on this thread and not what I addressed.

This is controversial as a vegan product.

We depend on the harvesting of honey for the food we eat even as raw vegans, which creates an irony.

I am not advocating the use of honey, just discussing it.

honey bees are not even native to north america so i'm starting to think that the whole food pollenated by honey bees therefore honey consumption is neccessary arguement is off. there are many indigenous species of bee and other bugs that pollenate, i wonder about the balance of this.
now that's a topic worth discussing here but better of on the OT forum than the foody one i think.

I hear you Pakd4fun. I aint stopping you! Discuss away!

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Thanks David .

I have been thinking about bees getting killed in harvesting. I met a raw lady who was dating a bee farmer. She told me that although he was always as careful as could be, some bees were inadvertently killed during harvest. Then I think about all the bugs that are killed during the harvest of any food I eat. I was picking blackberries this weekend. I am always watching out for critters in order to not hurt or not to gather them with my berries. Every time I get home with my pail there is at least one critter trying to climb out. That is at least one that I see. If we think bugs are not sacrificed in the harvesting of all of the food we eat we are kidding ourselves. How many of the fruit pickers out there are actually shooing the little critters away? I feel like my friend's bee farming boyfriend (and other local bee farmers) is probably more mindful of his bees than pickers are of the wild bugs they see. Most people I know make fun of the way I carry bugs outside when they are used to smashing them without a second thought. I imagine most fruit pickers aren't much different.

There is the question "Are we intended to eat honey?" I don't know the answer to that but I could ask that of many things I choose to eat, like sea vegetables. Bears eat honey, why should I think that it is not natural for me to also?

If the bees that pollinate our food are not native to North America than I think the next question would be which foods they are pollinating are not native to North America also? Would that make a difference? The balance has forever changed.


This seems like a discussion that has everything to do with raw foods to me. This is why we have higher powers, to make decisions like that for us.

there are approximately 3-4000 native american bee speices in north america here is a list of some [www.n8ture.com]

there are nearly countless invasive introduced plants to north america and vice versa to europa/asia/africa etc.

pakd4fun hits it on the head... we have changed the balance forever...now we just have to work on working with what we have to work with

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

i wonder how neccessary the Honey bee is in particular for pollenating food though. if there are so many other pollenating insects it seems quite weak to me to validate honey consumption because of this connection. i realize this is a specific point and that i haven't addressed the many other valid and interesting points above but this is one thing that's been on my mind lately.

i wasn't implying that this discussion didn't fit here, just that the OT is a better place for topics that aren't entirely about food. lots of threads are getting moved lately to keep the board organized, that's all.

i agree i dont think the pollination issue is enough validation to consume honey .. i think thats just a huge marketing spin by the honey producers

correct honeybees arent the only pollinators not now and not in the future im sure ..

I agree it isn't a validation to consume honey also, but I don't think it is necessarily an argument that honey bees aren't improtant either, which is my point.

no, of course not. they play their part as inhabitors of planet earth for sure.
did you see that Bee Movie? it was so good until they put the spin on it all, then it was pure propaganda. too bad, i was amazed at the incredible message right up to that point.

ahh, Poor Tanya, I think you guys scared her away now

Below is an interesting and brief article about honey, veganism, and the sometimes strict doctrine that might be wrecking our image in the public eye.

[www.satyamag.com]

All very interesting points guys.

Thanks for the article femmeveganoregon. Killing bugs to harvest food and raising them to be tortured and killed are two different ethical situations. I think I want to research this more.

Yes, The bee movie was good. I should watch it again.

Hmm... I read the article, and while they have a point, I know there are a few here that got an idea going in my head which I think works best: when you have the chance to make a choice, make it a conscious one.

Don't lose perspective of the bigger picture. There's a lot of evil claiming lives every day to get the gasoline I put into my car... I'm not fooling myself. The entire Western way of life right now pretty much depends upon the destruction of the earth and its inhabitants.

Bring awareness to everything you do. Do everything you can. Lead by example. The mess we've made of the planet is all-encompassing and everybody has to start somewhere, whether it's dealing with peace, meat, trees, or bees.

I choose not to consume honey, but getting society as a whole to function in harmony with the planet is a big, big work in progress. I'm gracious for anyone who can extend awareness in any way.

I think the big difference is taking personal offense to having to change a lifestyle vs. choosing to be aware and support life (the article points this out nicely).

Don't think you're better than everyone else just because you don't consume honey... but I don't see any harm in choosing to spare a couple of bees when you can, where you can--every little bit is precious! Honestly, right now, as I become more aware of how intimately all species are connected and feel the weight of an unsustainable culture on my shoulders, I have NEVER been more grateful in my life to watch trees bloom, birds hop around through the grass--and bumblebees buzz around outside. It's all so beautiful.

When you stop to think of sparing the bees, just self-check to make sure your intent is to clearly spare the whole...

And, of course, since everyone here is working toward the same objective (vegan, life consciousness), I think it's a great idea for all of us to discuss this, put our heads together, and keep finding ways to be as low-impact on the earth as possible, insects included. =)

well said Phantom.

i have a hard time giving a crap about how what i do makes vegans or vegetarians look as a group, sorry.

one part of the article struck me though "...if we really cared about bugs we would never again eat anything either at home or in a restaurant that wasn&#8217;t strictly organically grown"
that certainly isn't exactly what i do but it sure is what i strive towards every day. and what's wrong with that? it works for me. i'm not telling anyone else to do it, each must choose for themselves, but it is what I wish to aim for.

"i have a hard time giving a crap about how what i do makes vegans or vegetarians look as a group, sorry."

Just curious. How old are you? I'm 22. Anyways, this is where I run for the exits. Thanks to the peaceful people out there. Hey, can you recommend any raw vegan sites where the cool people outnumber the dogmatic and hypocritical wack jobs? A place where they actually practice compassion and have brains that they use to help people? Thanks in advance.

If anything is dogmatic, Femme, it's caring what other people think and basing your decisions on what other people think, IMO. I'm not vegan for appearances, thanks.

As far as the "argument" (if you can actually call it that) that because bad things happen, let's cause more bad things to occur, well, that's just ignorant, selfish, and/or unthinking. Hmm, because some bees dies, let's kill more! Yeah, makes sense. Good luck finding "cool" people with that "great" idea.

[utopiankitchen.wordpress.com]

it took me a long while to decide whether to consume honey but after reading all that I did I decided it was better to not consume it. There are so many substitutes for honey anyway..

I don`t think there is anything dogmatic in reminding people that this is a vegan forum. There are so few raw vegan forums....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2008 09:18PM by sweetlime.

<<As far as the "argument" (if you can actually call it that) that because bad things happen, let's cause more bad things to occur, well, that's just ignorant, selfish, and/or unthinking. Hmm, because some bees dies, let's kill more! Yeah, makes sense. Good luck finding "cool" people with that "great" idea.>>

What? Who said anything like that?

Arugula said some things a while back in a post about how you can actually do more to make changes in the world by converting two people to veganism than you can by just being a vegan yourself. If you truly care about animals and the environment then you will care about how vegans and vegetarians look as a group. You will care about how you can help to spread the message. This doesn't mean you would base every decision on it, but you would care.

Femmeveganoregon, I hope you stick around a little longer. You may find that it a better place than it apears to you at the moment.

About reminding people that this is a vegan forum- many people who consider themselves raw vegans (Storm and Jinjee and the Boutenko's for two examples) consume honey, so it is a topic worth discussing here, IMO. Also things like alcohol and overcoming eating animals are discussed here so how is discussing whether or not it is ethical to consume honey any different?

I don't understand why anyone should get bent out of shape over honey. Nobody has even said it was something we all should be doing. Nobody is trying to convert anyone. It is just nice to discuss the reasons for our choices so we can all be better informed. It seems negative comments in the beginning of the thread might have attracted a negative outcome. I vote we prove that we don't have to let these comments cause negativity in our own posts.

pakd4fun Wrote:
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> <>
>
> What? Who said anything like that?

I'm not saying in this thread, but on here and elsewhere, I have seen people "argue" that because, for example, animals are killed when grains are harvested, that it's no different than killing an animal for meat, for honey, for her milk, etc. I have seen this over and over and over again that, seemingly, someone thinks it's a bright idea and some sort of validation to cause direct killing!

Go figure.



I wouldn't live my life in a way that others would be turned off (unless they hate compassion). HOWEVER, that doesn't mean my veganism has ANYTHING at all to do wtih what other people think of me. Get the difference?

<<I wouldn't live my life in a way that others would be turned off (unless they hate compassion). HOWEVER, that doesn't mean my veganism has ANYTHING at all to do wtih what other people think of me. Get the difference?>>

Again I don't see the relevance to this thread. I don't think any one (here anyway) chooses their diet because of what other people think of them. That isn't what the discussion (or the article) is about.

that seemed to be a bit of what the article was to me. like when i am answering questions about what and why i eat/live/believe etc i should be tempering that to have a desired affect on the listener. it seems manipulative to me to give an answer that isn't genuine out of fear of seeming too extreme. i dunno, i don't think like that. if someone bothers to ask me something i figure it's because they really want to know the TRUTH and not some clever little spin to entice them to be like me. if someone is interested in veganism i can direct them to a site or two for information but i'm not really concerned with converting people. changing the world by setting a good example? sure. but answering questions less than honestly because of an alterior motive? not really my style.

Yep, the article was about that they want to consider honey somehow "vegan" to appear (or be perceived) a certain way to others.