Durianrider,

I tried to access your blood tests through your link, but I can't get videos very well where I live.

I think it's very encouraging that on 80/10/10, you were able to go from low thyroid to normal without seaweed, but not sure that the experience of one person, over a relatively short time span, is evidence that the same is/will be true for all or even most other people over a time span of decades. It's also very possible that the needs of children may not be met. Although of course your own experience is important to note, we really don't have much evidence to go on for supporting your conclusions over the general population, over the entire life span, to be sure.

If we do want to accumulate real evidence either way, then more people need to go in for testing and be willing to share their results, as you have.

It's a good point that many - but certainly not all - organic farmers use kelp products. Another reason to buy organic!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2010 07:06PM by suncloud.

I dont think raw as a newborn child is doable unless there being breast fed.

For a start one of the conditionally essential amino acids taurine unless you get it from breast milk is not obtainable elsewhere on a vegan diet. Which is why its added to breast milk formulas.

I know i go on about iodine alot but its another nutrient.

durianrider,

Here in the States, seaweed/fish based fertilizers aren't all that common, especially inland, and it doesn't matter whether the method is organic or conventional--cost prohibitive. Also, please bear in mind that women's iodine ratios are much more sensitive to other factors, as we have more receptor sites to use or abuse. A deficiency can be very serious before it's even detected, and although it's great that your iodine levels achieved equilibrium magically on high fruit, that doesn't signify anything about anyone that isn't you, right? It does inspire confidence that some of us may do well in kind, but . . .

Btw, the high fruit inhibiting HGH question is a legitimate concern that I have, and that I have not seen Doug Graham addressing. Know he's busy and all, but being he's a sports physiologist and his wife's an M.D., and given that this hypothesis has been bandied in sports medicine circles for a while now, it seems an issue pertinent to 80/10/10.

Like i say tamukha, iodine is rarely if ever tested anywhere even if you have thyroid problems, you can push MD's to test and even then they wont so id like to see some paper trail for durians iodine evens, testosterone etc fair enough but iodine is so rarely tested that i doubt he got it done.

HGH deficient lol where did that term come from, yes we decline in HGH as we age but iodine HGH deficient another durian science 101 guys.

We used to use Maxi-crop, which is kelp. We sprayed it on our trees, and they loved it. But the organic powder is difficult to use and store, since it cakes up. It's also expensive, and there's no organic requirement that it has to be used.

I hadn't heard of anything about HGH. I'm assuming HGH is "Human Growth Hormone"?

Would anyone care to elaborate on this? Are there some available references?

(This forum is such a great resource!)

Is there evidence that people can become deficient in HGH from eating too much fruit? And Durianrider, would you mind saying who you were referring to when you said some people were getting HGH shots?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2010 09:25PM by suncloud.

suncloud,

I was the one that posted about HGH as a response to other posts remarking that Dr. Graham looks to them to be a bit aged; there is some research being done that indicates that consuming sugary foods, including fruit juices, within a couple of hours after a workout inhibits HGH secretion. Note: this is off topic from iodine, a separate discusion on this thread.

Mercola's been discussing this recently on his website. He's on a bit of an anti-fruit tear(I say as a caveat), but he is also very pro running, biking, etc. I went to a few of the links from one of his posts on this subject and this one got me thinking:

[www.howtobefit.com]

Ok, thanks Tamukha!

This is off topic from the recent conversation as you say, but I think it's still on-topic for the subject line of the thread. I looked up GH in my Anatomy and Physiology textbook and came up with this:

Hormones of the Anterior Pituitary

"Growth Hormone (GH) stimulates the growth of bones, muscles, and other organs...

"Most people have a rhythm of growth hormone secretion, with daily peak levels occurring during deep sleep. Growth hormone secretion also increases during periods of fasting and exercise...

"Part of the effect of growth hormone is influenced by a group of protein chemical signals called insulin-like growth factors (IGFs) or somatomedins. Growth hormone increases IGF (somatomedin) secretion, and the IGF molecules bind to receptors on cells of tissues...and stimulate growth...

"Insulin, at high concentrations, can bind to IGF (somatomedin) receptors."

So maybe if there's a lot of insulin, there will be less IGF receptors available to bind to tissue cells, and therefore less stimulation of the growth and repair that's so important for athletes in training.

Since higher blood glucose levels stimulate the secretion of more insulin, we could have this scenario: Higher blood sugar levels cause more insulin secretion, which takes up IGF, which means less IGF available for stimulation/growth/repair of targeted tissues, which means less muscle/bone/circulatory growth and longer recovery time for athletes in training. Not good.

It makes sense. But even Mercola doesn't relate the higher insulin levels to fruit consumption, unless a person has "Syndrome X". He says:

"Syndrome X makes the body over react to dietary sugar and carbohydrates — even some high-quality, natural carbohydrates like fruit."

Normally, I don't think fruit would be at issue, since whole fruit has a relatively low glycemic index, a relatively low glycemic load, and therefore doesn't usually cause the blood sugar spikes that would stimulate the release of excessive insulin. Blood sugar spikes would more normally be caused by consuming white flour products and stuff made with processed sugar.

I don't know if there's evidence that eating a lot of fruit in a short period of time would normally result in a blood sugar spike. I haven't heard of that happening, but if there's any evidence, it would be good to see it.

Thanks for bringing this up. I think it should be discussed if people are concerned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2010 12:28AM by suncloud.

Not sure if I got all that right, and it looks like there are other mechanisms as well. Sorry to take up so much space.

Anyway, I haven't found any reason why eating fruit would interfere with the growth hormone activity of a healthy individual. Doesn't mean there isn't one, of course.

Again, it seems that everyone missed my post - Doug Graham looks like a typical athlete - tired and wrinkled from unbelievable strain on his body from excessive training. He is healthy but tired, like all athletes are.
Please check my previous posts on this topic.

I truly appreciate people like "duriander", who walks the walk and shows us what is possible. I don't always agree with his methods (like admiring athleticism), but I think that he is an honest, true raw vegan, and his work is inspiring.

I found this thread interesting..
Woman's breastmilk is so sweet from all the fruit/811 that her toddler has decaying teeth and Dr. Graham just basically says it's OK because they're "milk teeth" that will fall out anyway.
[www.vegsource.com]

Have to say I disagree. Nothing healthy about having that decay/rot in your mouth for a few years until they fall out.

I also don't think Dr. Graham looks that healthy. He looks.. old. Something about his skin. Unless he's just not photogenic and looks better in person.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2010 04:45PM by BackAgain.

I want to say I totally agree with Rab that being a hard-core athlete is not ideally healthy. I think it overly wears down our bodies. I think we should exercise moderately, casually, and enjoyably for optimum health. Of course, if you really enjoy being an athlete then all the power to you, but running marathons our whole lives is sure to deteriorate your body, and personally I think that's it's not spiritually holistic enough of a lifestyle. Yoga or meditation, political engagement, socializing, learning, exploring consciousness, etc. all have as much or more value in life than athleticism, in my opinion.

So I agree that that's Dr. Graham's fault, not the low-fat raw vegan diet, which I agree with. Actually, I'm turning towards fruitarianism, personally. The more I eat fresh fruit the less I'm drawn to nuts/seeds and vegetables, and the more my consciousness clears up. The clarity that comes with eating only one fruit at a time is magnificent. I think we're best to really follow our instincts and our consciousness and not sell ourselves short. It's not about who can do the most pull-ups; it's about having a high quality of life and being joyous, spiritually clear, and selfless people.

BackAgain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I found this thread interesting..
> Woman's breastmilk is so sweet from all the
> fruit/811 that her toddler has decaying teeth and
> Dr. Graham just basically says it's OK because
> they're "milk teeth" that will fall out anyway.
> [www.vegsource.com]
> 44.html

That's just crazy talk. Oral health is connected to the entire body, it's never a good thing to have decay in the mouth (or anywhere, I mean Come On!). "Milk teeth" also serve a purpose, for the formative years of a child's life too, they should not be looked at as dispensible simply because they eventually fall out. That's ridiculous. Decay in primary teeth can end up in the secondary teeth before they emerge, it can result in the neccessity for root canal surgery, it can cause a multitude of health issues. One of the markers of great health is strong, healthy, shiny white teeth. Saying that a child's teeth aren't important is getting a bit too wrapped up in the effort to justify dogma IMO.

I just don't understand why momma's milk was sugary--my concern is why her body isn't metabolizing the fructose for its own needs first . . .

Omega-3 - thank you! That is exactly what I am talking about. We should spend time outdoors, always be active, creating, working and improving ourselves. Yes, some workout is good, also some running, maybe even some sports. But, being an athlete is not what we are made for, nor is it our purpose. We need to be as fit as possible, but we don't need any records broken. Extreme endurance, just like intensive sports (like tennis or basketball) cause adrenalin rush and addiction, but they are not healthy for us. Older athletes look like squeezed lemons. Check pro tennis players, they sometimes look like they are in their forties while they are 23 or something, it is brutal.

I also have the same experience as Omega-3 regarding fruit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2010 06:48PM by rab.

I really liked your post coco! Facts can be important, especially when it comes to our little ones!

Rab, do we know for sure that Doug Graham is involved in such heavy training?

Here's a recent interview with Graham, where he says he doesn't exercise that much, maybe one hour a day if he's lucky (about a third of the way through the interview):

[www.fredericpatenaude.com]

Not that there's any shame or anything in Graham's exercise schedule. It's just that maybe we don't have to come to any conclusions based on an intense exercise schedule that maybe Doug Graham doesn't follow.

If people feel great on Doug Graham's program, fine. If someone else doesn't feel that good or finds the program too difficult to follow consistently, I say there are other ways for those people to stay healthy and raw. It's not necessary to believe that a successful raw vegan diet has to be 80/10/10 or nothing. Not necessary at all.

I think the Einstein quote is applicable sometimes in regard to 80/10/10 and other similar very restrictive regimes: "Insanity means doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

30 years ago, I would have been totally gung ho about 80/10/10, exactly the way it's presented by Doug Graham. These days, I think there are some very positive points about the program: the focus on whole raw foods especially. But for me, after nearly 24 years raw, I stay healthiest when I make sure I get more iron and calcium than is offered in the 80/10/10 menus. I can actually stay at a ratio of about 7% protein, 10% fat, and 83% carbs on many (not all) days pretty easily and feel great, but the fat source has to be more focused on raw nuts and seeds rather than avocado or no overt fat at all.

And many years ago, I found I needed a B12 supplement (no, I don't have an absorption problem, or I'd have to take shots). I'm now finding that I may also need more seaweed.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2010 10:00PM by suncloud.

interesting, suncloud. thanks for sharing.

suncloud, he has spoken more than once about the "athlete" level of fitness, and he states in his book that only athlete level of fitness is normal, natural for humans. He may not be doing that much now, but he did a lot of endurance and other training during his career. He spoke about it himself, many times.

Only athlete level of fitness is normal, natural for humans? Tooth rot in children is ok? The more I hear, the less I agree with this person's philosophy!

Nobody is perfect. It would be a big mistake to through out Doug Grahams great work due to a few points we do not agree with. He is still the best nutritionist I have learned about, and I will continue to learn from his book and from him directly as well as from his followers.

Besides, there is some truth into what he is saying about fitness. There is a medical reason behind that. He claims that humans, and especially males, should have a very low percentage of fat in the body (less than 10%, if I remember well). He claims that that is the only healthy way of living. I find that very much possible, and logical. Women need a little more fat, due to different body requirements. But, I don't agree that the only way to get there is to be an "athlete". He is always addressing urban audience, and workout is the only way they get exercise. He never speaks about how much "workout" organic farmers need, for instance. If you are outside whole day, working on your farm, how much "workout" do you need? After a hard days work, will you run 20 miles as prescribed? That is the question.

I agree with coco... and with rab's statements about how UNHEALTHY an athletes level of fitness makes you feel, maybe it was just me, but when I was super fit and strong, I did not feel physically good, was constantly tired and sore...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

In The 80/10/10 Diet, Dr. Graham does qualify the fitness requirement a little bit:

"I suggest that a healthy athletic person should utilize at least as many calories in physical endeavors as they use for their resting BMR. (Resting Matabolic rate is equivalent to 10 times your ideal body weight). This means, for instance, that a 150-pound man who uses 1,500 calories as his baseline should also use at least another 1,500 calories in his activities for the day, on average, for a total of, 3000 calories."

I find this is easily achieved by incorporating high intensity interval training at least 3x per week. Unless you really really like endurance activities. I don't.



Swayze
[www.fitonraw.com]

I hurt my foot without a known cause. In the morning, it's extremely difficult to walk, but it seems to loosen up throughout the day. It was so bad one day that I finally took some ibuprofen. It's been almost 4 years since I've taken any medication and I'm rather heartbroken about it. Things could be worse, for sure.

I finally went to the doctor today and they took x-rays and a uric acid test because I had gout when I was 19. Obviously, the uric acid test came back fine and the x-ray showed no problems. It must be a muscle/tendon/ligament issue and I was told to continue taking NSAIDs and put heat on it. This needs to clear up because of nursing school. I only have a year left and the job requires much walking. I also have no insurance and would rather not need more testing to figure out a cause.

I only bring it up in this thread because it irritates me that people immediately insinuate that it might be because of my diet. I do practice a low fat version of raw veganism. I know how they'd respond if they got sick and I said it might be the Mcdonald's quarter pounder. But, there's always the chance that they are right.

Does anyone have any suggestions on more holistic approaches to pain relief? The source of the pain is my small toe in the metatarsal.

Thanks

david

Load up on fresh vegetable juice David!

well, trauma oil helped me considerably with muscle pain, a shock to me, because I am skeptical at best about homeopathy, I still cant rule out a placebo effect, but whether real or imagined, im perfectly happy not having muscle pain,lol.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2010 11:33PM by Curator.

Curator, "trauma oil" sound interesting. Would you happen to know what's in it?

Dvdai, you might also consider trying an arnica cream or gel (if you haven't already). Arnica helps with pain and swelling, and also helps the healing because it brings blood to the location of the injury.

ive had good results with turmeric, it has strong anti-inflammatory properties.

I lived for years with shoes a half size to small and sometimes too narrow, and with sore callused little toes. The toes need room to spread out.

Massage works wonders too. Barefoot as much as possible.

suncloud,

I think "Traumeel" is was Curator's talking about. It's a popular sports injury treatment among alternativey athletes.

er, nah, its called Trauma oil, I have a bottle, heres a link to something I think is the same stuff, has the same ingredients, bottle looks different though...
[www.aromaticsinternational.com]
it has worked better for me than the arnica gel I used, although the arnica gel worked wonders as well, it just didnt seem to work for as long...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Thanks Curator and Tamukha. I'll have to look into both those products.

Tamukha, "alternativey"? I like it!