Hi all,

I am only new and only starting out in this process and I admit I don't know that much about it. I have been reading books and websites for a few months now and trying to draw my own picture out of a very confusing sea of information. I agree with what I think are the basic theories of raw-foodism: raw food full of enzymes to help the digestion, plus less toxins into the body coming from processed food etc. I also do agree that we should give the stomach a rest by not eating all the time.

However, I have seen a lot of times extreme postures regarding all of the above. Like some of the attitudes towards toxins. There is a huge range of foods (all cooked foods, obviously) that we're are not supposed to take in, and even less if you're also vegan. But then you still get people that limit the range EVEN MORE, because some fruits have such and such toxins because they're hybrid, some veggies have such and such, well we're suppposed to eat a variety of things to get in enough nutrients so how the heck do you do that if you keep making the list of things that you can eat shorter and shorter?

Another one is the whole fasting thing, what's that about? How's the body going to work without calories to burn and without the essential nutrients? Fasting for just a few days, fair enough, but longer than that? I have also seen people who recommend not drinking water? I mean, water, hello? There is also something wrong with water? Are we going to start walking around with masks one of these days too, like Michael Jackson to avoid all the germs in the air?

I understand we are trying to avoid toxins etc but hey, the body CAN very well cope with a certain amount of toxins, no need to take things to the extreme!

Then there's the people who eat like, twice a day. How do they get in enough food to cover even an essential minimum of essential nutrients? Do they eat like, 5 kilos of fruit in one go?

This life-style is working very well for me so far and i do have a lot more energy and I am convinced, improved health, but I am by no means extreme about it and I do still eat some amounts of cooked food every day. I of course have nothing against those who do raw vegan 100%, don't think there is anything essentially wrong with it, although I do not think there has been enough studies done to prove that the lack of so many food groups doesn't damage our health in the long term. But I do genuinely believe that this diet is essentially A LOT BETTER than that of 99% of Americans/Europeans, regardless of what 99% of doctors think and say about it. We know better heh heh. But some things, like all the extremes mentioned above and others than I have not cared to mention, ring warning bells with me, no less considering that so many of these called "gurus" and many people who practice this life-style come from anorexic backgrounds. I did, and I do, thoroughly enjoy my food and I intend to keep doing it! (Not implying by one minute that all you guys don't enjoy yours).

Now, feel free to attack me all you want or if someone has any constructive views on these I'd love to hear them

Thanks for reading.

You make a great point, that it seems like this stuff is so extreme. Certainly if some told me 8 years ago that my diet would look like what it is right now, I would have thought they were crazy. In fact, if they had reached me at the point I started eating all raw, and said the same thing about my future diet, I would have said they were crazy.

In starting the raw diet, I think some people read too much information and get overwhelmed. They try to follow all these rules and ideas they read about, and this cause a lot of stress and anxiety just in itself. And, their bodies are not yet ready for all the diets that people who have been doing this for years are eating. So they get overwhelmed, the food doesn't serve because their health and digestion are not there yet, and they don't feel so healthy and ultimately give up.

Just take small steps. Accept where you are, and just try one change at a time to see if it makes things better. Doing 20 simultaneous dietary changes will probably not work, and you will be hard pressed to know which of those 20 changes did work, and which did not work.

The longest journey starts with but a single step. And the only step that is important to be concerned about is the step you are on now. Don't fuss about the multitudes of future steps. Just look at the step you are on now. And when you have ownership the current step, then look for the next step.

If you listened to everybody you'd find that NOTHING is good for you.....in the raw food community reading isn't always the best way to start off.

Start off by experimenting with raw foods/produce, find what works for you then progress to what ever feels right from there...after a while you'll find the right info will reach you.

Be good

RB





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2008 09:40PM by richard blackman.

Bryan you make a great point like always, thanks very much for that. But (sorry I do not mean it dis-respectfully) I don't think you got the whole "point" of my post. I am not actually wondering about my own nutrition (well I do, but not in this post in particular) I am wondering about what others see as right and wrong. I think some of the attitudes are so extreme, they are doing a dis-service to the community, to the whole raw-food idea and certainly to the health of those who practice it! I just personally think that everything should be practiced in moderation and without enough conclusive studies out there how can someone BE SURE that living on 2 kilos of fruit a day plus some veggies and nothing more is not going to kill then in like, 10 years? Isn't that a HUGE risk to take?

And how can it be that the people who advice fasting is the same people that has a background of anorexia? Doesn't anybody see some kind of link there?

To many people the idea of just eating raw foods is "extreme"...heck to some people the idea of not eating meat is extreme!!!!

You gotta keep an open mind, just because to you someones raw lifestyle may seem "extreme" doesn't mean it actually is.....it simply means that it's "extreme" to you!

Hope you find the answers your looking for...

RB

There is a WORLD of difference between eating a mixture of foods throughout the day that are mostly or totally raw, and eating a limited amount of them during the space of 4, or 6 hours, limit your intake of water, not take in any food for long periods of time, fast while you're breastfeeding, etc, etc, you get my gist.

karmele,

There is no right and wrong. The mind loves to focus on what is right and what is wrong, and people will get into long battles about it, causing pain to themselves and others. The only thing that matters for you is what works for you right now. And what works for you right now may change from day to day, year to year, and it is helpful to recognize that.

I have been eating typically in excess of 2 kilos of fruit a day for years. And for me it feels good. But for most other people, to suddenly try to eat this way would be abusive and unhealthy. For me, given where my health is and my raw process is, this is not unhealthy and poses very little to no risk for me. But for others where they are, what I am eating would simply not work for them. There is no right and wrong as far as diet. Again, the only thing that matters is what works for you now.

As far as fasting, anyone who is fasting that is not experiencing some kind of disease like symptom has a high probability of eating disorder OR they are super healthy and they don't need to eat. There are some people who are practicing calorie restriction and it really works for them. They are not underweight and their energy feels good. And there are people, say like Karen Kellock, who did this and was really masking her anorexia. You just can't make a blanket judgment.

I personally don't recommend water fasting to anyone unless they are experiencing disease, and no long term fasting for that person unless they get supervision from an experienced fasting guide. For people who want to fast just to prepare themselves for the next stage of their dietary evolution, I usually tell them to forgo fasting and just make the dietary improvements. With a healthful diet, fasting is totally unnecessary.

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> karmele,
>
> There is no right and wrong. The mind loves to
> focus on what is right and what is wrong, and
> people will get into long battles about it,
> causing pain to themselves and others. The only
> thing that matters for you is what works for you
> right now.

Not sure I agree with you on that. There WILL BE something wrong if in some years time it is found that some of you guys have been depriving your body of some essential nutrients, and possibly make yourselves really sick as a consequence. This type of diet is just starting out and there is not enough medical research done about it yet. How can you guys be sure that your body "will warn you" if you're doing something wrong? It doesn't always happen like that.

karmele Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a WORLD of difference between eating a
> mixture of foods throughout the day that are
> mostly or totally raw, and eating a limited amount
> of them during the space of 4, or 6 hours, limit
> your intake of water, not take in any food for
> long periods of time, fast while you're
> breastfeeding, etc, etc, you get my gist.

Sorry sounds to me like your picking faults for picking faults sake!

RB

karmele Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bryan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > karmele,
> >
> > There is no right and wrong. The mind loves to
> > focus on what is right and what is wrong, and
> > people will get into long battles about it,
> > causing pain to themselves and others. The only
> > thing that matters for you is what works for
> you
> > right now.
>
> Not sure I agree with you on that. There WILL BE
> something wrong if in some years time it is found
> that some of you guys have been depriving your
> body of some essential nutrients, and possibly
> make yourselves really sick as a consequence. This
> type of diet is just starting out and there is not
> enough medical research done about it yet. How can
> you guys be sure that your body "will warn you" if
> you're doing something wrong? It doesn't always
> happen like that.

Ha,ha...it's pretty simple really, if your doing something wrong to your body you will know about it, your body will not let you do something wrong and let you carry on forever happily ever after, at some point you will know....this even happens on the cooked food diet, if your doing something wrong you'll get sick.

If your already raw and your doing fine what's the problem, if it ain't broke no need to fix it.

You take care now.

RB

> Sorry sounds to me like your picking faults for
> picking faults sake!
>
> RB

Right. So you're telling me that you see no difference between someone who tries to improve their general health by consuming increasing amount of fresh, raw produce and someone who deprives their bodies of general fuel for long periods of time for the sake of "cleansing". I am not trying to spark a raw, butt think that some people can get a good thing a twist it and turn it so much that it becames a terrible thing instead!

karmele Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Sorry sounds to me like your picking faults for
> > picking faults sake!
> >
> > RB
>
> Right. So you're telling me that you see no
> difference between someone who tries to improve
> their general health by consuming increasing
> amount of fresh, raw produce and someone who
> deprives their bodies of general fuel for long
> periods of time for the sake of "cleansing". I am
> not trying to spark a raw, butt think that some
> people can get a good thing a twist it and turn it
> so much that it becames a terrible thing instead!

Hey whatever works for you.

Be good

RB

> Ha,ha...it's pretty simple really, if your doing
> something wrong to your body you will know about
> it, your body will not let you do something wrong
> and let you carry on forever happily ever after,
> at some point you will know....

Yes, but by then it might be too late to fix it, your body might let you know in the form of an illness and you might be too late to do something about it. You might have done an irreparable damage. Same as what happens with the cooked food, as you mention.

karmele Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Ha,ha...it's pretty simple really, if your
> doing
> > something wrong to your body you will know
> about
> > it, your body will not let you do something
> wrong
> > and let you carry on forever happily ever
> after,
> > at some point you will know....
>
> Yes, but by then it might be too late to fix it,
> your body might let you know in the form of an
> illness and you might be too late to do something
> about it. You might have done an irreparable
> damage. Same as what happens with the cooked food,
> as you mention.


According to you there's no hope either way so do what makes you feel the best right now in the present....

Ha,ha...

RB

No. I didn't say there's no hope either way. I said that I am not brave enough to say to myself "oh sure, all those doctors that recommend a minimum daily intake of 300mg of calcium a day, they might not be right after all, I'll take my chances and hope that it works out for the best. Sure I feel all energized right now so that's the main thing, I'm sure it'll work out fine".

I am not attacking the raw food life-style (and of course I am not attacking you or your opinions, just answering your posts). I am questioning some attitudes that take the life-style to a level that I think is bordering on obsessive-compulsive and in some instances just plain crazy!

karmele,

You say that the body doesn't tell you that you are doing something wrong. That even if you feel good, then something can go wrong in the future. I can see how this is causing you pain and worry.

What you are missing is the feeling and the internal experience of faith that people like myself, Richard, or David Mason experience with out diets and what our bodies are telling us. What prevents hearing what the body is saying is a loud and noisy mind. And it seems like your mind is very active and noisy. What about getting quiet, and rather than listening to what the mind is saying, listening to what your body and your spirit is saying?

For myself, I don't care about knowing and knowledge of experts or external authorities. The only thing I trust is my personal experience, not what I read or what others say. There could be a million scientists telling me my raw diet is inadequate for good health, but I am not about to trust their knowledge and knowing over my personal experience. And for all those that would bad mouth my diet, about zero percent of them have even tried it.

And if this sound like a bunch of new age nonsense to you, then I am sorry, nothing I can share with you will make a difference.

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> karmele,
>
> You say that the body doesn't tell you that you
> are doing something wrong. That even if you feel
> good, then something can go wrong in the future. I
> can see how this is causing you pain and worry.
>
> What you are missing is the feeling and the
> internal experience of faith that people like
> myself, Richard, or David Mason experience with
> out diets and what our bodies are telling us. What
> prevents hearing what the body is saying is a loud
> and noisy mind. And it seems like your mind is
> very active and noisy. What about getting quiet,
> and rather than listening to what the mind is
> saying, listening to what your body and your
> spirit is saying?
>
> For myself, I don't care about knowing and
> knowledge of experts or external authorities. The
> only thing I trust is my personal experience, not
> what I read or what others say. There could be a
> million scientists telling me my raw diet is
> inadequate for good health, but I am not about to
> trust their knowledge and knowing over my personal
> experience. And for all those that would bad mouth
> my diet, about zero percent of them have even
> tried it.
>
> And if this sound like a bunch of new age nonsense
> to you, then I am sorry, nothing I can share with
> you will make a difference.


No it doesn't and I'm sorry you got that impression from me. I am just not as sure as you are that our bodies are so capable of telling us in time what's right and what's wrong, even if we learn to listen to them (which I admit I don't know how to do yet). I also doubt that all that people out there doing what I call "extreme" are listening to their bodies more than to the bunch of "gurus" out there that all seem to be advocating a different thing.

But I understand where you're coming from and to a great extent, I agree with you.

karmele Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bryan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > karmele,
> >
> > You say that the body doesn't tell you that you
> > are doing something wrong. That even if you
> feel
> > good, then something can go wrong in the future.
> I
> > can see how this is causing you pain and worry.
> >
> > What you are missing is the feeling and the
> > internal experience of faith that people like
> > myself, Richard, or David Mason experience with
> > out diets and what our bodies are telling us.
> What
> > prevents hearing what the body is saying is a
> loud
> > and noisy mind. And it seems like your mind is
> > very active and noisy. What about getting
> quiet,
> > and rather than listening to what the mind is
> > saying, listening to what your body and your
> > spirit is saying?
> >
> > For myself, I don't care about knowing and
> > knowledge of experts or external authorities.
> The
> > only thing I trust is my personal experience,
> not
> > what I read or what others say. There could be
> a
> > million scientists telling me my raw diet is
> > inadequate for good health, but I am not about
> to
> > trust their knowledge and knowing over my
> personal
> > experience. And for all those that would bad
> mouth
> > my diet, about zero percent of them have even
> > tried it.
> >
> > And if this sound like a bunch of new age
> nonsense
> > to you, then I am sorry, nothing I can share
> with
> > you will make a difference.
>
>
> No it doesn't and I'm sorry you got that
> impression from me. I am just not as sure as you
> are that our bodies are so capable of telling us
> in time what's right and what's wrong, even if we
> learn to listen to them (which I admit I don't
> know how to do yet). I also doubt that all that
> people out there doing what I call "extreme" are
> listening to their bodies more than to the bunch
> of "gurus" out there that all seem to be
> advocating a different thing.
>
> But I understand where you're coming from and to a
> great extent, I agree with you.


Being sure often comes with time and experience!...if you have just started out you may not understand what this "listen to your body" stuff means!

Have fun with what your doing and try not to get bogged down with the technical stuff right now, wait till your ready and open to it.

Be good

RB

RB

Here is a starting place to increase your connection to your internal guru/authority, your body and your spirit. Practice hatha yoga and find a yoga instructor/dvd that that focuses on the breath. A good book is "The Heart of Yoga: Developing a Personal Practice" by T. K. V. Desikachar.

Another useful tool is meditation. Simply sit down, get your mind quiet, and see you can be in a state of non-thinking but being totally aware of what is going on inside and outside of you. This takes some practice, as the mind is noisy and will want to continue to think. And if it does, simply recognize it, don't judge yourself, and see if you can continue with silent awareness rather than noisy thought.

ummm... I sure hope you guys are right, for your sakes and for mine

Ha,ha,ha...at least you don't hope we are wrong, that a good start!

RB





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2008 11:14PM by richard blackman.

Bryan, thanks for that. I have a 2-year old, a part-time job and a baby on the way but if I ever get a chance to get into that I'll let you know! I appreciate the advice anyway

Excellent points Karmele! I can't add too much to the above great posts by Bryan, Richard and the others. Eating more (or all) fruits and vegetables is not an 'Atkins' type diet. It does not come out of a book....it comes out of the ground. Even cooked/processed foods come originally from more natural sources.....so eating this way is just a 'toolbox' and a way to get back to the source. One still needs to...ummm....'access' and choose the level of this tool spectrum that is right for them. There is not a 'uni-tool' but a whole series of simpel tools. Everyone eats SOME level of fresh fruits and vegetables. So EVERYONE is a 'raw-foodist'....just at a different level. What level is 'extreme'? That is for the individual to decide.

-I think you may have the idea that there HAS to be some kind of public face....a facade....a branding....a CONSENSUS on all the facts and levels...by all parties involved. In this sense....I think people that are waiting for a pre-packaged, 100% proven method that applies to everyone EQUALLY....will be waiting a while! Ha! ha! I think the most successful healthy eaters are very much leaders....and trailblazers....and are NOT waiting for some kind of consensus to do what they've researched to be the healthiest.

-Guys like myself have been eating this way about 10 years...and have good recent bloodwork (b-12, protein, fats, calcium, nutrients, etc.) Exactly WHEN is this streak going to end? ha! ha! (I hope never!) Of course, I support the way YOU choose to eat 100%. If I ever meet you, I'll buy you a 3-course meal of what YOU choose to eat! LOL.

-I think, for the the serious, it is only a little work to push through the appropriate crap....and talk directly to folks like Bryan or Richard or myself or others who have been walkin the walk for many years. The internet makes this possible.

My advice? Avoid the 'raw' label...don't restrict your food...and just concentrate on increasing goals of intake of more fresh, unprocessed fruits and vegetables....and the final level and details will very much take care of themselves. Raw food turns you into a 'fast-er' of crap by default!

-To some who eats complicated, even a solution as simple as 'eat more unprocessed fruits and vegetables' can break down in complexity, worry and un-natural restriction and deprivation. As Bryan says, and I agree, that without the compulsive need to constantly respond to mind chatter.....what one truly believes becomes rather clear. What a person then DOES about it....determines the level of happiness and self-realization.

-Just some thoughts - that I hope are helpful and supportive and kind.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

karmele

i think that bryan, richard blackman and DMZ have been extremely gracious in their responses. they are amazing people

i can't agree with them more

if you are truly concerned, do yourself a service and get bloodwork done

you are correct that there seems to be a myriad of controversy over several aspects of the raw food lifestyle

there are also several controversies and contrasting opinions on

1) meditation
2) yoga
3) how to raise a child
4) how to do business
5) interacting with your boss
6) treating your employees
7) successful marriages
8) successful relationships

the list could go on and on and on

if you take all these controversies seriously instead of just taking intelligent risks and experimenting for yourself, and like i said, getting bloodwork if you are truly concerned of deficiencies... you have a great way of monitoring what is and what is not

also, diet is just one aspect of health

one could also concurrently work on
1) keeping an optimal positive state of mind
2) seeing "bad" things as something that could be used constructively to create something " good"
3) cultivating beautiful friendships and relationships
4) being of service in things that truly matter to you

food , in the larger picture, is just a fraction of this thing called "health" but that does not mean it is very important because it is

being happy stems from "correct" actions
"correct" actions are simply actions that are in alignment with what you believe constitutes integrity and is going towards fulfilling your "dreams" whatever they are... ( they could be emotional, spiritual mental physical financial whatever...)

when i read your post

it seems as if you subconsciously ( or consciously) believe that anyone else's lifestyle constitutes a MANDATE on other people or the "community"

but the way i see it:

what john doe chooses to do is HIS business

how jane doe chooses to do the raw lifestyle really is HER business

if you think that just because someone is espousing an idea, that they are DEMANDING that you follow them

please re think this

you are an adult

you have the freedom to choose
and to experiment

if you want "scientific proof"

well... you can choose to look at articles written by orthodox doctors who say that raw is "bad" for you

or naturopathic doctors who say "find the middle path"


or raw foodist doctors who say a host of other things

sure, its confusing

but then again , life is confusing


sure it can be a risk

but so is cooked

and so is just walking out the door, forging a relationship etc. etc.

if you read every book on "How to create the right relationship"

and it doesn't work for you

don't blame the author

its just their idea and they are entitled to it

take responsibility for how you choose to take intelligent risks

we ALL take risks

and NONE of us have the PERFECT solution to ANYTHING

i don't care WHAT anyone says

we are ALL just experimenting

and modifying as we see "proof" towards that goal or "proof" towards the contrary

the only people who do not risk are seven feet underneath the ground pushing lilies

and THAT is even disputable

karmele-

i think you might be greatly limited by the american definition of health and nutrition. we've only recently made nutrition a scientific thing of bits and pieces of this that fit together to make health, and most of that picture is totally blank. especially to doctors and nutritionists- check out their health sometime.

historically, fasting, cleansing and eating a cleansing natural foods diet was the doctor and the nutritionist for the average person. there is more than nutrients in the food meeting needs in the body (or else we would all just take pills)- there is actually the body's needs, which are spiritual, physical and emotional. food CAN meet these, but it's a relationship. or what was once called a diet. now that means something else.

some people can twist raw foodism to be bad- but that is because of their own problems, not because raw food is actually bad, or lacking. i just can't understand the modern fear of missing out on food. one meal or one day, the body has more than enough resources to handle this. in fact, the body does well with rhythms of fasting and eating- you don't wake up in the middle of the night to recram with calories. though your mind is still burning calories and your body is cleansing and refreshing and healing while you sleep. many religious cultures have fasting- Judaism, Hinduism, Islam and Christianity come to mind. why would all the cultures have fasting if it was as bad as the modern american scientist claims it to be?

fasting can be a very useful spiritual discipline, and for those who worship their minds and bodies, cleansing is a similar experience. to worry about serious physical depravation of nutrients is rather odd. my husband has been eating raw vegan and was commenting to me on how many nutrients he's getting and in such large doses compared to the average diet. i told him that some people think that is impossible and he laughed. he's not a raw foodist- he would never join a community, but to him this line of thinking is absurd. he also has done a bit of spiritual fasting. he's a 6'2" 200lb man. and his physical has improved amazingly by adding in fasting and raw foods.

peace-

Ok, I suppose you got me in that I was looking for a "one size fits all type of thing", a bit like the nutrition pyramid that you get with your average western nutrition. Finding so many ideas, some of them so radical etc kind of through me out a bit. I didn't start this journey looking to "experiment". I would have never, before, even considered doing this to my body without some western doctor telling me that studies and research has shown that "blah type of diet is adequate for our human needs". La_veronique mentions that in every subject there is always controversy over the different ways of seeing and doing things. But in most of the subjects that she mentions and other subjects as well there seems to be a "mainstream" way of thinking and if you find this one out, well, I tend to believe that if the majority goes for it it probably is about right. Like for example it seems to be the consensus nowadays that slapping is no good to educate a child, well I do not need a consensus to come to this conclusion myself in this particular subject but I think, unless you are willing to experiment a lot in a lot of areas of your life, it sort of helps to "find out what the majority thinks and kind of go with that, if it seems like logical and rational to you".

Well thanks to you guys I realize now that I was approaching the whole thing in the wrong way and I see what you guys mean about "learning to think for ourselves"! I suppose that is not what the society tries to teach us generally.

I also agree that what seems extreme to me might not seem extreme to others and of course I understand that each person can take whatever approach towards raw food seems right to them. They of course have the freedom to choose and I don't in any case "feel" that what they're doing is any kind of imposition on me. But within the boundaries of my logical mind and what I have been able to learn to this moment, some things still seem "unnatural" to me, and since this is a public forum I will express my opinion as carefully as possible and without causing any offense. It still does seem to me that a lot of people are, to some extent, nearly "starving themselves out" and it occurs to me that this is not what the whole thing is about! But after reading all your posts I now have a mind more open to all the different "variants" and perhaps what seemed extreme before seems a little less extreme now

Anyways thanks everyone for your input and for taking the time to read and reply.

Cheers

P.S. I am still not going to go out wearing a mask any day now heh heh (only joking)

Be your own guru. Chuck the books, if they are a hang up for you and go into the prouce section and see what you want to eat.

If you can think of a better way to eat than raw food, I'd love to hear it.

hey hey

I like your post, because you're honest and funny. I laughed, because I think a lot under your terms.
I picture in my head:

One man, he is 85, he's a southern white guy, and he loves deep fried foods, beef, butter, vegetables only in tons of salt, fat, and what have you. Jam on his white toast. And his blood work says he's great. No matter how much alcohol he drinks or how much tobacco he smokes. I mean, it's not totally uncommon.

Then there's another man
He's 85, white, anything but southern. Sees butter as trans fat, not food. This dude is the exact opposite, and he only eats fruit and vegetables. No salt, condiments, what have you. He is convinced he has found what everyone should find because it works so well for him. His blood work says he's great. This is not totally uncommon in the raw world. But, it works for him.

Human beings are so damn complex, for me, it's about the fun and the ride. I don't think restrictions are what anyone should look for. I also don't think after reading one article, with "evidence" that anyone should be convinced of anything any article has said. Ten years ago, it was all about fat, then its about carbs, then it's, oh just workout, then it's drink green tea, and chew gum. Well if it means throwing a person in a bus of possibilities, it's just going to create stress, and make the body toxic. We don't want that. We are better off enjoying our lives in a less toxic body that's happy filtering out whatever stuff it can.

Personally, I hate being told what to think, do and say. I don't think anyone does. Atleast that's something we can say people have in common. Right now, I'm not giving you any advice, I just felt like saying what I thought. I'm glad you posted this, I really am starting to not like food "gurus" ..it's a vibe. Another mystery of people. Oh and I'm enjoying mostly fruit right nowww...and I cook when I feel like it, because I enjoy creating lots of flavor for my buds of tastinnng. I am really fascinated by food and how people created it though -- and so I want to keep learning about what foods got here and how. It's amazing, but that's just something I love to learn about. Some people have different interests and would rather live simply. Anywayy, I could go on and on about my thoughts, but theres a taste(haha). If anyone or you felt like reading it. Thanks for posting, it was a really good topic.

Hi Karmele,

I just wanted to respond to two aspects of your posts, especially we it seems like you might be more left-brained like I am I may be reading into your posts, so my apologies in advance if I've misinterpreted anything you said or meant.

* One, it's interesting that you mention the whole concept of what is mainstream and what is supported by medical research. It's ironic, and I'm sure others will agree, that if you eat a lot of raw food, people will think you're crazy, but after a while of eating lots of raw food and getting lots of benefits, you think everyone else is crazy for eating junk foods! Of course, as is obvious, it is possible to be too extreme on raw foods, so that's not to say that everything is relative. For example, I became vegan about a decade ago, when I didn't know anyone who was vegan. My family was, of course, very concerned, including my sister, who lots of junk food, meat, and dairy. Fast forward almost a decade to this summer, and my sister who is now heavier than I am, lo and behold, starts reading "The China Study", based on the recommendation of a doctor at her work. She confesses to me that all these years, she thought I was crazy, but now realizes that I'm not. So what I'm saying is that due to entrenched paradigms and mass culture, it's not always clear what's "right"/better or "wrong"/worse/extreme. I think our science is still so young and immature in many ways. For example, the early studies that supported the idea that vegetable protein is inferior were done on rats in the 1940's, and it turned out that the rats did poorly on vegetable protein, but did well on meat. The fundamental flaw in these studies is that rats require three times as much protein as a percentage of calories as humans do! But now, through the China Study, we have strong evidence that not only is vegetable protein adequate, but it's actually superior to animal and dairy protein. Go figure!

* Two, about medical research, it's a tricky subject in my opinion (and your unlikely to get an answer soon enough to satisfy your curiosity). Most of the studies (there are very few) on rawfoodists find that they have trouble getting enough of a handful of key nutrients, but in general, do very well for most nutrients. Now, you can do what most people do, and assume that that means that the raw food diet is deficient and rawfoodists are unhealthy. In fact, I'm a graduate student in science at a well-known university, and a student interviewed me and a professor for small piece on rawfoodism for their weekly radio show. Now, this very famous professor, based on some of these studies, believes it's impossible to even survive on a raw food diet and that all rawfoodists will become anemic. But that's because he's in the mindset that what studies show in terms of nutrient intake tells you about the adequacy of the diet. But it's important to understand what each study is *really* telling you. Those studies only examine what *those* particular people have chosen to eat, not what is possible. For example, in one of the studies I read, the average intake of calcium by rawfoodists was between 500-600 mg per day (c.f., the RDA of 1000 mg). However, (1) I and many others get in excess of 1000 mg per day, so what one group of rawfoodists does does not dictate how healthy others will be or the possibilities that can be achieved with the diet (the studies were also done pre-"Green for Life". Two, how do we know that these particular lower levels are necessary bad, i.e., we have to correlate intake with physiological results, and no one has done that yet (aside from arguably menstration studies), but yet researchers already jumped to conclusions (though to be fair, why should they think that healthy people have different needs?). Personally, I think both of these points I raise are not only valid, but really are the fundamental points of a study such as this. Surely, many of the pioneering group of vegans had problems with getting adequate levels of nutrients, but now that we know so much more about veganism, we now veganism is a healthy diet and what foods vegans need to ensure they stay healthy. But of course, the early studies on veganism showed that it was unhealthy for the average vegan. Now with the wisdom of more research and more people experimenting, the numbers of vegans experiencing problems are way less than in the early days. I think the exact same sort of thing is going on with the raw food movement. In fact, in my 4 years of watching the movement, I feel like it has changed from a situation in which more than half of the people who tried raw veganism ran into nutritional problems and didn't succeed on the diet, but now it seems like more than half now do eventually succeed. Even iff my statement is somewhat off, I still feel like the raw food movement has evolved in huge leaps and bounds in the past few years and a greater percentage of people are being successful on it. So my personal story is that I've done raw the "wrong" way (not enough of certain nutrients, too much fat), and a few of my blood nutrient levels became worse than before and I didn't feel all that much better after a year on the diet. But now I'm doing raw the "right" way (meaning am getting adequate nutrients), and had a perfect blood profile, way better than I've ever ever had, with all electrolyte, mineral, and iron levels in the middle of the right range. I couldn't ask for better results on a blood test. So I would say that "rawfoodism" is just a label, and you can be extreme or not extreme within it. You can be well-nourished or not well-nourished on it. If anyone needs some comfort in the beginning (I definitely did), or perhaps if you really want to focus on optimal nutrition, I definitely recommend planning a diet for you in which actually figure out how you wil get 100% of the RDA of all nutrients (with the one exception of B12 as a supplement), and that might work really well for you and put your mind to rest. So that's something to consider.

* It's important that you might a happy medium for yourself and take the long view: what you do today, will not be what you do tomorrow, and there's no need to eat all raw or jump into anything too fast. As long as you are always experimenting and/or open to new ideas, that's great!

Anyways, I hope this is helpful in some way!

science gal

cool