I think it's safe to say that fat, carbs, and protein all have the ability to do the same thing

but weren't they grouped to specifically tackle what they are meant to do?
carbs..energy
fat..long term energy (storage)
protein..muscle building

So I think it is a little bit contradictory to say that carbs are the best at quick energy, fat is the best at storage, but protein plays no part in building muscle

if it were true that you needed more protein, for the more muscle you have
you get more fat, the more fat you have and the less you move
would you get more muscle, the more you eat protein AND the more you move

focusing on the human body and how we synthesize this nutrient -
could compare how one animal may utilize their nutrients vs. human
like.. a lion, and why it eats meat and how it's broken down, and an elephant, and why it eats foilage and how that's broken down and used.

both obviously have muscle, and are strong, so it must be how we actually put these nutrients to use ourselves. so saying a gorilla has muscle just by eating leaves isn't really what I'm focusing on heerre..just a heads up

this is something to discuss; i'm not trying to pull a trigger here on anything specific, just my normal curiousity and questioning on a roll

Remember: it's not protein you need but aminos. Your body will use aminos to synthesize protein in the absence of pre-synthesized protein[meat]. That's why raw foodists manage to maintain musculature even on a high fruit diet. There are a lot of interesting threads here from raw bodybuilders--check them out, if you haven't already. Ta!

well, i know that; but to get all aminos in the right level in the same time is difficult with only fruit - which is why some people have said they've had trouble putting on muscle

it could also be from deficient calories..

I'm trying to strike up discussion on it though, not get an answer; so while i've seen some posts on bodybuilding, i'd like to go further into it.

Hey! Anybody who eats more sprouted beans, seeds, or nuts than is typical for a fruitarian, please respond to iLIVE's query! I myself eat lots of sprouts and soaked nuts. I have tried eating sprouted beans, but I just don't find them palatable. Indeed, I got somewhat queasy when eating the last batch of fresh sprouted garbanzo hummus. And I got sick on lentils(I suspect an inherent allergy to these, however). So no beans or pulses for me, right? That is, if I obey the raw precept that one's body tells one what it wants, that means my body cannot tolerate sprouted beans. I am assuming, then, that I'm getting enough aminos from other stuff. Or that only a modicum of these is necessary. I have read somewhere; I think it might have been a comment from Dr. Cousens, that as few as 28 gms daily is sustaining. In Cooked World, on the other hand, we were advised in nutrition class that an adult Homo sapiens needs between 40 and 50 gms. of protein a day. I have heard elsewhere, up to 80 gms. For a non-athlete! This is because there is some debate about how much of that protein is actually metabolized. I have heard that raw aminos metabolize into protein more efficiently than vice versa. I have never seen a clinical breakdown of individual amino acid requirements, however. Depending on what vegetarian health guide one reads, the idea of "lowest minimum amino acid value" and consequent combination[I believe this is what you refer to]are represented as either accepted doctrine, or merely theoretical. In fact, my general nutrition textbooks didn't cite sources[research studies, anecdota] for this information, now that I think about it. IS this just a theory? Are we all in danger of developing beri beri? Perhaps you are interested in bulking up, not simply maintaining muscle stores? Have you considered supplementing with raw protein drinks? Sunfoods makes a good one; it's hemp and brazil nut based. I don't know of anyone who's increased mass significantly with this. I have managed to maintain muscle mass; that's what I was taking it for--insurance. Also, there's this belief that with all the extra energy a raw foodist has, they are able to engage in more muscle-maintaining/building activity than someone who's cooked. And that the metabolism of a raw foodist uses micronutrients more efficiently. You have heard of the rat starvation study of a few years ago, I assume. As I recall, they seemed to get thin, but wiry, on fewer calories of more nutrient dense foods. That's sort of like a raw diet. Don't know. Ball to you, sir or ma'am . . . .

I'm a wee ladyy of 17. So i'm always wondering if protein will effect me or not at this age..i'm geusssinngg it might! I mean I've been building muscle, but I don't know how efficiently exactly. It's really hard to compare, because I have increased my intensity of exercise after going raw (well, 80/10/10 more specifically) - So while I have built muscle (and pretty much never feel sore.) I don't know if I should look a certain way or be putting on muscle faster, considering my genes which I have a history of parents in sports and just packin on that muscle so easy. And as for protein, everything in the raw world that has protein seems to have just as much fat if not more usually. Actually that usually applies in anything..other then "fat-free" things and beans/legumes. If I were to supplement a protein -type thing, it wouldn't be raw (though I'm not completely raw so it wouldn't matter) most likely. Though I probably wouldn't want to do that anyway..I definitely want it all to come from diet.

But yeah, it's confusing about what recommendations you should listen to for protein consumption..
So I'm just kind of reading around, trying to figure stuff out...till I get some balls to try some trial and error.

if protein wason't important to build muscle, then these pro DRUG FREE bodybuilders (natural bodybuilders) wouldn't need to be eating 'concentrated' protein every 3 hours.

I f they could build as much muscle eating very low protein and high carbs they would be doing that,
But they dont for a reason.........

At least I think they don't for a reason! Haha
I just don't know how to approach getting enough protein and how much I should need. damn, this is so difficult to figure out, who to trust, what to do what to doo. I know I don't want to follow anything.. i feel like i have to create my own plan of attack and go for it, see what happens

i just need some good ideas for protein sources

anyway, seriously, i'd really like to expand on the protein discussion; it's really very great to hear different opinions on what people believe as to why people only need 10% protein or so (graham;campbell - the low fat and low protein people i know of)-without siting something, just from their experience- as well as fat.. is this only for mostly sedentary people? Could exercise effect your diet..as well as genes and the HUMAN past, "homo" species. Is the human body smarter then we think it isss...

paulieGB: But do body builders consume their protein RAW? That's part of my point; supposedly, your body constructs protein more efficiently from raw proteins or individual amino acids than from, say, powdered cooked whey supplement and hard-boiled eggs. If this is true, no wonder body builders mainline Tiger Bars or Russian Bear or whatever--they're metabolisms can't keep up with their energy demands.

iLIVE: you may want to do a search online about your protein requirements. At your age I believe you need more than a woman my age[36]. In any case, I'm certain you need more gross calories; your body is still developing, so you should be eating a lot. And look into any raw supplements with spirulina, hemp, chia, and ground up nuts. These can be very good concentrated protein sources for the raw foodist, if ground up into a shake.

I think your body is said to construct protein more efficiently if the amino acids are from more then one place - like it's building the acids as they come as blocks, rather then tearing apart a larger protein and rebuilding it, you know? But then again, when you eat anything it's always going to end up as glucose. Carbs end up as the first target of attack for energy, glucose, but do they do the same things that protein does when entering the body? I agree it's possible bodybuilders metabolisms could not be up to par -- but then again, bodybuilding isn't as simple as eating a ton of protein and no carbs and pumping iron. There is probably some good science behind it. Hey maybe there is something they could learn though.

Yeah..I was thinking I should; I got this green powder thing a reaallly long time ago that I believe contains spirulina..and other algaes and such. I have to figure out what to use that in, make up some stuff. I like to have a plan. Hemp, chia, yes all good I'll probably incorporate these more too to see what I get out of them.

Have you come across Brendan Brazier and his book the Thrive Diet. He's not a body builder but he is an elite athlete. That might be interesting for you to look up.

''paulieGB: But do body builders consume their protein RAW? That's part of my point; supposedly, your body constructs protein more efficiently from raw proteins or individual amino acids''
---------------------

So why are there no bodybuilders eating raw ?
If we could build a lot of muscle eating raw then there would be SO MANY people doing it, pro 'natural' bodybuilers e.t.c.

Yes, I've read Thrive Diet, and I haven't followed it - I dove into 80/10/10 rather then it..then adjusted it to whatever the hell my diet is now; so now I AM curious about whether his diet would work for me. I'm more interested in what Brazier DID rather then what he suggests -- he experimented with his body and how he builds muscle and burns fat. He figured out what foods help him. For me, it may be different, and so I could try his plan, or I could figure out my own...who knows what I'll do next, but I hope to figure something out soon. I loose to procrastination. He doesn't count calories which might be something I disagree with..then again, like i said i haven't tried it, so i don't know i'm just being un-daring.

And I am also curious as to if anyone knows of any raw bodybuilders that actually compete along with natural bodybuilders and if there is a significant difference. I might look that up on google or something, do a bit of study on that..but paulieGB makes sense in saying some amount of bodybuilders that compete would try to learn the best that they could of how to build muscle. And I understand there are a LOT of different views out there, even in bodybuilder world.

paulieGB:

Agh! That's the query I'm implying! "Do body builders consume their protein raw?" was not meant rhetorically--I'm REALLY asking, because I don't know that much about pro body building. The mathematical odds are that there must be at least one. It would be interesting for someone[other than Richard B, I mean] to try this as an experiment: how huge can I get on just high calorie/high protein/high fat raw. There are so many variables; cooked body builders have to take all kinds of supplements to bulk up, right? Maybe it's not possible vegan raw, but meatist raw . . . don't blacklist me, Bryan!

Also, iLIVE, I'm sure it's occurred to you that as a young woman, your nutrition program would have to be different than Brendan Brazier's. It may just be easier for guys because of their physiology. And I'm a feminist, so I'm not being flip! I think part of the issue here, as on the new Body Builder thread, is that raw foodists have a really hard time making the distinction between cooked ripped and raw ripped. On this diet, your body supposedly reaches its own ideal physical stasis after a while, right? And maybe that's why you cannot put extra muscle on your calves or whatever, no matter how hard you try--you're not MEANT to. And we are so conditioned to think one must dominate one's body, as though it is a separate entity, an "other." And it MUST submit to one's will. We get so upset when it doesn't do what we want. Just like a child with a complicated toy. It's a really weird perspective, now that I think about it.

Well, let's be clear, it's not really natural to bodybuild -I'm talking the competition wise. Bodybuilders are also at health risks when they put on so much muscle -- there's a bunch of debate on that topic alone.

I think we should limit this down to should we be able to put on a certain amount muscle easily with only 10% protein coming from a diet -- and is it different from if you were on a higher percentage of protein. Not getting developed calves could be genetics - or it could be diet. I mean the person had said that they get bulkier when not eating raw. Perhaps it is the protein consumption or calorie consumption effecting this. So it's hard to say what we're meant to look like, because that could play in either favor of eating raw food or eating cooked food. It is frustrating for a lot of people who can't achieve a look they want, it's funny you compare it to a toy, it is a lot like that; onlyyy bigger.

Also, it's on the controversy whether you balance out your weight after a while orr what..Like i don't know what the hell this body is doing..and i think your weight would adjust to whatever your doing no matter your diet, yeah?

I don't make much sense when I'm confused