Set up very similar to Ishmael. where the story is just a pretense for a polemic... the plot mainly revolves around a group of males who hear of and travel to their land..only to be captured and under scrutiny as possibilities to 'bi-sexualize' the society. In capture of and subsequent education of the societies functioning , they share their differences on patriarchal society which is the bulk of the story..written from a clearly feminist perspective and some might say, a work of misandry...the characters eventually become quite embarrassed of their dysfunctional society (written almost 100 years ago)

This is a feminist utopian book...other then the obvious criticisms, this book is one of the better utopia novels I have read in terms of real solutions to and rational approaches to education and collectivism.

in fact in some point in their 2000 year development they end up stripping their forests only to replant tress and plants that are exclusively fruit and nut bearing and have no garbage.

Herland:
[librivox.org]

[en.wikipedia.org])




[www.giveittomeraw.com]

Except that Daniel Quinn is one of those pseudo-environmentalists in that he is not and does not promote veganism.

Sounds interesting my friend. I'll definitely check it out!

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

It is my understanding that Quinn promotes - if anything - a return to a society where the fruits of the earth and of labor are not systematized and kept under lock and key. That the only truly sustainable societies are the 'leaver' societies, or societies that only produce and enough to be consumed for their current needs and more or less leave their surrounding habitat intact and flourishing.

An idea which - for me - transcends and makes seem almost futile any attempts at sustainability within our own system

True, none of the societies that serve as a model for Quinn are vegan or even completely vegetarian, perhaps this has to do with the idea that the very essence of a collection of beings requires variety of sustenance in order to survive in constant adverse conditions, without the burden of thriving as a culture. Another conjoining idea would be that the level of consciousness is only *now* increasing as to support system of 'nutrition' that goes beyond such limitations and requirements.

It is also likely that in his beliefs, as with many, veganism implies a controlled state of agriculture in order to be relied on as a complete food source. probably including grains and other mono crops, but if not, certainly land tilled at a large scale. Not that this is 'wrong' per se but results in the same problem of the individual being divorced from the production and dependent on other methods to earn his 'bread' which for Quinn again is the beginning of civilizations woes.

One can argue that this is not the case that individuals can subsist on the fruits of plants alone but non one would argue that this could exists on a scale to sustain an entire society and certainly not without greatly effecting the ecosystem and requiring some massive distribution system.

Which I think is interesting in this book as the women seem to create such a system that functions. As for their difference with OUR civilization Its hilarious, at one point because one of the captured males begins to pantomime milking a cow (which you can just image how a room full of Amazonians would respond. lol!)

But back to Quinn, I certainly do not think what I am saying is an argument AGAINST what people an do on an individual level both for their own health and evolution and as well as the environment.

But I recognize that even though I personally will often quote that vegan ism is one of the simplest steps to having a cleaner footprint on this earth, I would be hard pressed to argue how someone raising their own animals for products or consumption, and bypassing the system of commerce would be a detriment to the environment or a weak environmental model.

And personally choose to support anyone creating any sustainable way of life regardless of their dietary choices as I certainly cannot recommend my way of eating/subsisting if I am not in fact a model of not just health but happiness and non-judgment.


[www.giveittomeraw.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2009 02:18PM by anaken.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Except that Daniel Quinn is one of those
> pseudo-environmentalists in that he is not and
> does not promote veganism.


Arugula, this is what alienates us. When you simply can't respect what anyone's doing unless they're vegetarian.

How exactly do these women reproduce "asexually"? Do they create synthetic sperm?

Arugula does not alienate me. If someone says something that I do not agree with I just ignore it, unless they are asking for other opinions of course.

I meant stuff like "screw what this guy thinks, he's not even vegetarian" alienates the veg community from mainstream society (not me from arugula, I'll always love arugula :p).

haha, you arn't going to like the answer to that one

its some sort of virgin birthing process fueled by divine love of motherhood.

it goes into greater information on the logistics of course

[www.giveittomeraw.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2009 09:32PM by anaken.

CB, you know the big three regarding planet care:

1. don't reproduce
2. don't eat animals or animal product
3. don't drive.


[ftp.fao.org]

Yep, 2. is above 3 in terms of contribution to global warming.

He reminds me of those yuppies who drive around in Ford Expeditions and then worry about paper v. plastic and send $50 in to save the whales as they munch out on their (ever-diminishing stocks of) wild salmon.

There's lots of fake meat, fake dairy, and fake ice cream around, and a person as wealthy as him can certainly afford it. It's not as good (either for you or the planet) as growing your own collard greens but there's a happy medium that does not reek of hypocrisy.

Plus, it goes without saying, this is a vegan forum.

Derrick Jensen is another one of those that I can't stomach. Compassion galore but not for anything nonhuman.

Sorry, this is me, take it or leave it. I can't voice my opinion at my workplaces but if I can't even do it on a vegan forum well, where the heck am I supposed to be able to say it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2009 10:40PM by arugula.