I keep reading on various sites that barley grass has B12, yet I've also read in many places that there aren't plant-based sources of B12. Anyone know whether barley grass indeed contains it?

thanks!
-Jim

Hi Jim,

Barley grass is a supplement usually that comes in dryed or pill form last time I read about it, which was quite a while back.. there's no reason why a supplier couldn't add B12 and then note it on the packaging, but I doubt you'll find it in there naturally.. loeve

i think you can get B12 from plants if they're organic..? There's more cobalt in the soil or something, and it's converted to B12 I think.

Barley Grass does contain B12. According to research, there is 80 micrograms of vitamin B12 per 100 grams of dried barley plant juice. Make sure it's good quality organically grown. Whether it's a significant enough source is debated by many, just like with algae.

Simple Raw Recipes & Health Tips

I would just take a B12/B-Complex/Good quality multi-vitamin, rather than risking it. But if you are adverse to doing that you can try to get B12 from home grown vegetables with soil, certain sea algaes, etc. I wouldn't rely on any of that though.

Yeah, barley grass powders are not standardized.... for example "Barley Life" [www.betterway2health.com] brand claims 0.77 milligrams of B12 /100grams powder, which is 770 micrograms, a huge number "determined by independant analysis" which may be true but what accounts for the large B12 number?.... it also contains rice and kelp powder... have any of these ingredients been cultured with b12 producing bacteria? I don't think kelp is that potent, and they don't say much about it..

I was checking into B12 just now because I was worried I might have a deficiency, and found this interesting link,
[www.scienzavegetariana.it]

it talks about how *wild* monkeys (captive's levels dropped significantly) get it (wild monkeys pretty much eat their feces and dirt. yeah, I would rather not), and how it doesn't matter if you get B12 from meat or from a vitamin supplement - it is only a bacteria; hence veganism is not wrong in anyway because plants don't have this B12, it's just humans don't eat their feces now a days like most vegetarian animals. It also stated under "Vegan Sources of B12" that "Barley or wheat grass (no demonstrated or likely effect)" barley/wheat grass did not have an effect on B12 levels in the body - nor did the fact that you only eat raw vs. cooked or conventional v. organic. hope it gives some insight.

Did anyone catch the "Nature" program on monkeys last night? It showed some eating insects and others game!.. watch out for those grass eating baboons! Anyway they eat everything.. I mean the guts (sorry, gross) including the contents thereof, partially digested food.. that's where the B12 producing bacteria is and one way they get their b12.. I'm not sure monkey's and humans don't absorb some B12 from their lower intestines as well but by all accounts we can't count on it..

I agree with iLIVE and others who have said that barley can NOT be counted on for B12.

The Vegan Society was founded in 1944. Read some of their papers on B12, accessible using their website search engine (www.vegansociety.com).

Any article making a claim that a dependable B12 source can be found in a vegan food - other than a vegan B12 supplement or B12-supplemented food - should be checked for serious references. Unfortunately, there ARE vegan articles in existence that make such claims. These articles are either completely unreferenced, or their references are very obviously unreliable at best.

Organic foods are often grown on soils containing low levels of cobalt, and they cannot be relied upon as a sufficient B12 source.

Seaweed! Dried wild mushrooms! Also, I think I posted elsewhere that many meat eaters are presenting with B12 deficiency because livestock animals no longer graze on open soil but are fed GMO grain feed. Their muscle tissue is deficient in B12, so the consumer of the muscle tissue can't derive sufficient amounts. The strategy of eating organic produce; sprouting barley in really humus soil, say, seems prudent. Unfortunately, one of the best ways to infuse soil with B12 for plant uptake is to mix in dessicated insect larvae! Off the menu for us! The problem with B12 studies is that, thus far, there is no failproof way to determine rate of metabolization from food; blood tests are frequently inconclusive for the source of the deficiency.

Tamukha, neither seaweed nor wild mushrooms have been shown to prevent or reverse B12 deficiency. Same can be said of eating organic produce (including barley sprouted in really humus soil). Or do you have evidence and reliable WELL-REFERENCED information to the contrary?

Again, for a true comprehensive account of B12 in a vegan diet based on well-documented information accumulated for over 60 years, go to the Vegan Society website. Check the article, "What Every Vegan Should Know About B12", or check any of their other articles on B12 by entering "B12" in the search engine of the Vegan Society website (www.vegansociety.com).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2008 02:46AM by suncloud.

There is a study that concludes "...some seaweeds consumed in large amounts can supply adequate amounts of bioavailable vitamin B-12." [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] ..

Dr. Gabriel Cousins has contributed an article "Vitamin B12 Importance" [www.living-foods.com] which lays out what he believes to be the issues for raw vegans..

you'd probably have to eat a lot of seaweed though!

Suncloud,

While I concede there may not be an abundance of studies proving empirically that seaweed and mushrooms may prevent or reverse B12 deficiency, neither is there an abundance of studies showing eating steak does. The information I'm going on I learned in cooking school, and was probably derived from USDA research. Also,there are new studies being conducted all the time, such as that cited by loeve above. If I must start a riot, I shall just say we should all take Garden of Life raw Vitamin Code vitamins[disclosure: I'm NOT a rep for this company], which have hundreds of times the DV% of B12 and are incubated on probiotic cultures; that is, they're not from ground up chicken. I know the subject of supplementation is a dicey one on these boards, so I will just persist in eating seaweed and Carpathian wild mushrooms(works for me so far), cross me fingers, and hope for the best! By the way, suncloud, I do appreciate your demanding hard evidence--that's just as important as anecdotal information.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a study that concludes "...some seaweeds
> consumed in large amounts can supply adequate
> amounts of bioavailable vitamin B-12."
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
> stract

Kudos to loeve for some very good research!

I thought I should mention though that the 1997 study cited by loeve notes that the conclusion is based on blood serum level. This is not an up-to-date measurement for B12 deficiency. In his article "What Every Vegan Should Know About Vitamin B12" (available at www.vegansociety.com) Stephen Walsh writes:

"A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans...Algae and some other plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism. Blood counts are also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress the anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be detected by blood counts. Blood homocysteine testing is more reliable.....The most specific test for B12 status is methylmalonic acid (MMA) testing...Most doctors still rely on blood B12 levels and blood counts. These are not adequate, especially in vegans."

Notice the mention of high folate intake suppressing anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency. Most vegans eat lots of greens that are rich in folate. Greens are good for us, but the folate (in addition to B12-analogues) skews blood test results for B12 deficiency.

And there's this from the Vegetarian Society information sheet on B12:

"Spirulina, an algae....and nori, a seaweed have both appeared to contain significant amounts of B12 after analysis. However it is thought that this is due to the presence of compounds structurally similar to B12, known as B12 analogues. These cannot be utilised to satisfy dietary needs. Assay methods used to detect B12 are unable to differentiate between B12 and its analogues. Analysis of possible B12 sources may give false positive results due to the presence of these analogues.

"Researchers have suggested that supposed B12 supplements such as spirulina may in fact increase the risk of B12 deficiency disease, as the B12 analogues can compete with B12 and inhibit metabolism."

For many years as an absolutely 100% strict vegan, I believed that since I'm an animal, I don't need to eat B12 to have B12. Made sense to me. At around my 12th year vegan, I started eating lots of spirulina, simply because I really liked it on salads.

It wasn't until my 15th year vegan that I started noticing some very uncomfortable tingling sensations in my hands and feet. I knew it was nerve damage, because I'd suffered from that years before due to an unrelated condition. That's when I finally started taking a B12 supplement. The tingling disappeared and has never returned.

I've now been strict 100% vegan for 22 years. And raw for very close to 100% of that time. B12 is still the only supplement I take regularly.

The tingling is kind of a classic symptom of B12 deficiency, but apparently a lot of people experience more subtle symptoms that can still indicate a very serious health risk.

If you're experimenting with doing without a B12 supplement, at least keep an open mind about it, make an effort to really read up on it, and consider the risk.

Read the article by Gabriel Cousens that Loeve cited above. Primates do eat their feces. This is discussed in the Gabriel Cousens article. Current studies have concluded that B12 is produced in the human body, but in the lower part of the colon where it is not absorbed.
>
> Dr. Gabriel Cousins has contributed an article
> "Vitamin B12 Importance"
> [www.living-foods.com]
> ml which lays out what he believes to be the
> issues for raw vegans..

Tamukha, if the information you learned at cooking school came from the USDA, the USDA has since changed their opinion. Www.nutritiondata.com has USDA charts for several varieties of seaweed and mushrooms, and all contain 0% DV for B12. Enter seaweed (or mushrooms) in their search engine and you'll get a page with a list of items (the mushroom page starts with some weird stuff, but further down the page you'll actually find the mushrooms). Click the one you want, and you'll get the USDA chart.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought I should mention though that the 1997
> study cited by loeve notes that the conclusion is
> based on blood serum level. This is not an
> up-to-date measurement for B12 deficiency. In his
> article "What Every Vegan Should Know About
> Vitamin B12" (available at www.vegansociety.com)
> Stephen Walsh writes:
>
> "A blood B12 level measurement is a very
> unreliable test for vegans...Algae and some other
> plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that
> can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually
> interfering with B12 metabolism. Blood counts are
> also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress
> the anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be
> detected by blood counts. Blood homocysteine
> testing is more reliable.....The most specific
> test for B12 status is methylmalonic acid (MMA)
> testing...Most doctors still rely on blood B12
> levels and blood counts. These are not adequate,
> especially in vegans."

Yes, thanks, the Finland Study is one small study, and already as you correctly point out, dated regarding the test method. Also we don't know where the seaweed in the diet of some of the subjects came from (or what kind of small crustaceans or plankton might have been infused within possibly confounding the B12 results.) But the study is referenced on this rawfoodsupport site along with Dr. Cousins and more (in Articles), giving us a few points of view.

I read thru two excellent articles by Stephen Walsh over at the Vegan Society:
[www.vegansociety.com]
[www.vegansociety.com]

VeganHealth.org has also put together impressive B12 information including a discussion of seaweeds: [www.veganhealth.org]

if i might paraphrase george bernard shaw - "when people of science research, the further from the truth they find themselves..."

so people, when someone observes anyone other than a misguided humyn musing on such seeming quandaries as b12 or the like, then do let me know....until then i'll carry on "as nature intended", enjoying my humyn food without washing it first...

presence and peace )

Liberation have you never questioned anyone ? anything ? never researched anything to come to the conclusions you have come too that in your world are the *ideal* ways to be?

Sorry i find that a bit hard to swallow.... (no pun intended)

Researching, questioning, observing, experimenting.. all scientific qualities ..and admirable at that .. in fact Liberation ..you are probablly alot more scientific then you let yourself on to beleive ... I dont understand why you admonish it so.

How do you know exactly what is *as nature intended* without observing or researching to some degree?

Even if you made some decision at some point not to wash your food .. you came to this conclusion .. somehow .. and for some reason ..im guessing you either researched it .. observed it in some way .. or experimented to come to a conclusion ..

The whole point of the forums is for people to be able to ask questions no matter how silly or stupid or pointless seem to you or anyone else.

I suppose we could all just go about nibbling on things experimenting and never questioning anything ..and some of us would die .. because that is as nature intended isn't it .. sometimes you get the bad luck of the draw when it comes to trying new things

Personally I am happy to have a place like this where I have been able to ask my stupid/silly/pointless questions without fear that someone on a pedestal isn't gonna look down on me an pooh pooh my questions as being irrelavent and shouldnt I know better.

another 2 cents



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2008 03:33AM by Jgunn.

(good) points taken jgunn.

admittedly re-reading the flat e words, i do sound pious, but if you hung around me, you would soon observe a different person, sure, i'm passionate, but loadsa lightness and laughs. i will ease my forum style, thanks. i have not posted ANYWHERE before and have only recently acquired a laptop, and chosen more free time - a deadly combination right?)"


re whether i question??? i am a perpetual, passionate truth seeker, but the answers come a whole lot quicker these days, and tend not to be from people or their books. if you want to know my pivotal guiding lights, sources of truth, inspiration etc. here goes: apart from one period where as a tortured post-pubescent, i sucked up all the herman hesse i could find in print, and then much later as an "adult" i discovered the 1830's to early 1900's "hygienists", i have barely read a book, or spent much time on humyn opinion. instead, my catalysts for change have been inner "universe guided" dialogue, and nature as lived in it's wild habitat.

so wise one, i would love to meet-up with you at maybe a raw/vegan pot-luck some time on my travels...

lightness and brightness,

rawpowercolin@yahoo.com

liberation, you would have to do more then not wash your produce is what the site (that i posted) was saying - it said chimps in the wild eat their own feces to get B12. So you would have to grow your produce in your feces, not wash it, and also eat your feces. And maybe some bugs. How down to nature do you want to get?

in answer iLIVE, and this may?????:O)))) do a lot of people's heads and sensibilities in, buuuuuuuut, i don't wash my hands after #1/2 bathroom visits...(unless with #2, i'm in company and planning to touch others), so i must get a tiny bit of my own waste as well as what's on my farmed or wild fruit n veg, in my diet!!! also people, what about during physical "intimacy" with others????)

anyway), you did ask), but arguably tmi for some:O)

now, i am NOT an advocate of the ridiculous jubb style urine guzzling and so on, but our pursuit of outer "cleanliness" is taking the modern humyn down the wrong road. consider this...no other animals seem to wash their hands/paws etc. after elimination, and those in the wild without humyn intervention are thriving, while we super clean freaks are barely surviving!

worth a ponder....

iLIVE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> liberation, you would have to do more then not
> wash your produce is what the site (that i posted)
> was saying - it said chimps in the wild eat their
> own feces to get B12. So you would have to grow
> your produce in your feces, not wash it, and also
> eat your feces. And maybe some bugs. How down to
> nature do you want to get?

The Stephen Walsh article you posted before [www.scienzavegetariana.it] has a lot a nice info and charts.... regarding primates:

"B12 levels in primates
Wild primates show B12 levels over 220 pmol/l which fall within a few years in captivity to about 40 pmol/l when fed a hygienic plant based diet.

"B12 sources in wild primates
A few primates have a second stomach similar to a cow's rumen. The rumen contains bacteria that produce B12 if the diet includes enough cobalt.

"Many primates eat their own faeces and obtain B12 produced by bacteria in the lower intestine (too low for absorption).

"All primates eat insects found on or in their normal diet and many deliberately seek out insects, e.g. chimps and termites.

"None consume quantities of meat that would provide an adequate level of B12."

Primates in captivity have feces available to them since their environments are not completely sterile.. in the wild where food is scarce feces might look a little better, especially after it has aged a little like fine w___ ..oh forget it..

Barley grass grown in cow manure might have an advantage but I don't think that is standard practice, and as someone mentioned the raising and use of cattle is less than optimum for the planet..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2008 02:45PM by loeve.

Here is an interesting article providing info on B 12 in raw food diets.

[www.rawfoodexplained.com]

From what I've read many long term raw vegans 20 years or more including Jameth Sheridan on a recent interview, have been tested as normal for B 12 and a few I know of that had low b 12 levels raised it on raw vegan diets.

The tests are a bit suspect as well as they do not measure accurately. The blood test is less accurate than the MMA urine test but even that is not accurate either



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2008 03:16PM by Ariel55.

ok..still..you would have to EAT your feces, not small microscopic amounts of it. I mean, it said these chimps ate their feces. They ate it. We don't do that. Being clean probably is not the main cause of people dying..
dude. animals get diseases too, it could just so happen that the ones that are hit with disease don't actually die from the disease, but they're too weak to run away from the carnivore chasing their ass, you know? It's actually extremely hard to determine if wild animals would have the same rate of disease as humans because of this. And we are also over-populated. Polluting..etc. come on, there's more to it then us not acting like animals.. plenty of wild animals get sick and die.
sure, they do a lot of things right, but i think cleanliness is one thing they DO do - just on a different level. I agree, using a product that claims to "kill 99.9% bacteria" is just a little over the top and definitely not needed - probably does more harm then good (immune system, perhaps it makes it weaker if we're constantly killing bacterias - good and bad). we are better off using lemon juice and vinegar! or extremely hot water. or some other natural cleaning product.

it's kind of like washing your hair..i mean if i didn't i would have a dreadlocked greasy mess on my head. haha

oh wait what was the topic..b12?? haha
seriously, that was a pretty good article with the wild chimp v. captive chimp

liberation Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
i have not posted ANYWHERE
> before and have only recently acquired a laptop,
> and chosen more free time - a deadly combination
> right?)"

ha ! well welcome to your first ever forum

someone once said it think it was Narz .. forums are for connecting .. not conflicting



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2008 11:22PM by Jgunn.