Thought this was a good article : [www.energygrid.com]

This is a good article. I noticed the link to the anti-vegetarian article written by Stephen Byrnes, to which this one is a response. I read it first. After the second mention of Weston Price in Mr. Byrnes's tract, I gave up on his thesis--LOAD-ed! The EG rebuttal is much more clinical, actually. Thanks for posting.

IS it a good article?

It purports to be measured, considered..., but, unfortunately, it’s really not! Enter the ‘Masai tribe and Inuits’ yet again!

The writer covers the Inuits in one paragraph as follows: ‘The Masai, for example, are remarkably healthy primarily on a diet of raw blood and raw milk which are unaffected by cooking or the toxins associated with modern cattle farming, although it should be pointed out that the average Masai lifespan is much shorter than that in the West, making comparisons more difficult.’

First, the obvious one…he’s said that the Masai are ‘remarkably healthy’ but ‘that the average lifespan is much shorter than that in the West’…spot the contradiction?! (my sources indicate the average male lifespan is 40, and they die partly due to disease (see following) and partly through their warlike habits.

Now here’s some more information that I've collected from various sources about the Masai:

Re their purported diet of blood and milk: this is not typical of their modern diet. Nowadays meat is not consumed regularly, and blood they rarely drink. They do use animal fat in cooking, and drink cow’s milk. They also make soups from bark, and eat fruit. They do suffer from cardio-vascular disease and also arthritis. They also suffer from brucellosis due to consuming raw animal products from infected animals.

HERE'S one possible reason why the ‘blood and milk’ diet’s no longer fashionable for the Masais: From ‘Osteoporosis - The Key to Aging’ (Robin Hur) ‘The (Masai) tribe’s males spend their formative years roaming with their herds, drinking the animals’ blood and milk, and eating only small amounts of plant foods. Then, at the age of 20 or so, they take off to do a two-year stint as warriors, during which time they try to live on flesh alone. Following the warrior stint, and while still in their early 20s, they migrate to the tribes’ villages, arriving at the villages with bent backs, diminished heights and debilitated bodies, whereupon they are cared for by the villages’ women until they die. Now there’s the rub: the tribe’s females, who remain in the villages while the males are out subsisting on flesh and making war, raise and eat plant foods, and remain remarkably free of osteoporosis.’

Note also that the tribe was almost wiped out at the turn of the century by what has been described by a ‘terrible series of epidemics’. What constitutes an ‘epidemic’ is oft-debated, and several times in history it’s pretty certain that what have been described as ‘epidemics’ have been in fact due to lifestyle factors shared by a population.

I could discuss the Inuits, but…could someone else…?

(PS Whilst the writer's 'heart might be in the right place', he's perpetuating 'myths' himself.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2009 04:06PM by debbietook.

Byrnes died suddenly of a stroke at the ripe old age of 41.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2009 02:00AM by arugula.

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Note also that the tribe was almost wiped out at the turn of the century by what has been described by a ‘terrible series of epidemics’. What constitutes an ‘epidemic’ is oft-debated, and several times in history it’s pretty certain that what have been described as ‘epidemics’ have been in fact due to lifestyle factors shared by a population.

That's a pretty ridiculous assertion & pretty insulting to indigenous peoples who were wiped out by European diseases. I won't continue talking about it though because last time I got banned for a conversation like this.

arugula Wrote:
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> Byrnes died suddenly of a stroke at the ripe old
> age of 41.


Yeah, he also had AIDS though. Anyway, this is a critique of his article, not a link to his article itself.

Hi Everyone,

He DIED at 41??. That's all I need or want to know!! I haven't made it to 100% total raw food but reports like this sure go a long way to encourage me to try!!

Till Later.....
Joe

Love is patient, love is kind, it is not self-seeking, love ALWAYS protects,always endures. (1corinthians 13)

God IS love!! (1john4)
Jesus Christ...... The ONLY way to Heaven.
I am the Way, the Truth & the Life..(John 14:6)

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Hi Everyone,

He DIED at 41??. That's all I need or want to know!!

It's a common attitude.

Anyone this isn't about Byrnes, it's about the essay critiquing his essay.

Community builder, it's not a 'ridiculous' assertion, and it's been made by many far more more knowledgeable than I who have a lot of evidence with which to support it. It's not remotely 'insulting', ie to say that there might have been a 'cause'for suffering is not to 'insult' or diminish in any way those who suffered. I'm really not surprised that you were banned if that's the way you reacted to those who suggested similar.

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who have a lot of evidence with which to support it

Please show me evidence that the native Americans (North & South) died in droves of smallpox & other diseases because they radically altered their lifestyles (often times before they had even met white people) or show me a scholarly article by ONE intelligent, educated person who believes that.

Obviously diet (and beliefs, etc.) effect disease processes but to suggest they are the only factor is... well what makes rawfoodists a fringe group (along with belief in breatharianism & other goofy things).

This post is beginning to sound like a debate oriented post, rather than a support oriented post. If this debating nature continues, I will delete this post.

I am getting tired of all the debate causing bad feeling among people here. If we can't stop this incessant debate, I will need to start removing the debaters.

Also realize that Narz is no longer doing raw foods. So anyone debating with him is essentially debating with someone who fundamentally does not believe in raw foods, and someone who was not able to get raw foods to work for himself.

Its often better to ignore posts that you don't agree with rather than debating them to death and causing bad feelings here on the forum.

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This post is beginning to sound like a debate oriented post, rather than a support oriented post. If this debating nature continues, I will delete this post.

I agree. Just don't delete the whole thread.

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I am getting tired of all the debate causing bad feeling among people here. If we can't stop this incessant debate, I will need to start removing the debaters.

Debate doesn't cause bad feelings, people's belief systems & reactions cause bad feelings.

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Also realize that Narz is no longer doing raw foods. So anyone debating with him is essentially debating with someone who fundamentally does not believe in raw foods, and someone who was not able to get raw foods to work for himself.

You are confused. I do (eat) raw foods everyday.

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Its often better to ignore posts that you don't agree with rather than debating them to death and causing bad feelings here on the forum.

Take your own advice champ.

Do you even realize this thread is PRO-vegetarian?

I thought the author did a good job of dispelling some of the common meat-eater concerns that vegetarians & vegans deal with. It might be a good article for people to send friends & family members who've "heard" various fallacies about the vegetarian diet.

If you have a problem with me Bryan please take it to private message instead of threatening me for posting pro-veg threads on a veg forum & "causing" people to feel bad! People are not delicate & won't shatter if we don't all hold hands & glad hand each other.

When there's no room for various opinions & discussion about them (debate) you have what's called facism.

The points in my previous message are not up for debate. It seems to me that you are insisting on a debate though. Again, this incessant desire to debate and have conflict is just cause for not participating here.

I've decided not to delete this post, as this post is not the problem, but its author. communitybuilder is banned for 1 month starting now (so come back after April 8, 2009). Should communitybuilder decide to simply use another account to post under, I will make the ban permanent, rather than temporary.

communitybuilder has been warned many times about debating, and I've certainly deleted enough of his debates. Words don't seem to work here, lets see if action makes a difference.

Thank you, Bryan. I appreciate how you keep our community friendly.

Yes Bryan, I also appreciate the friendly discussions without the debate that are characteristic of this forum. Thanks

And so do I!

But at least it motivated me to write a little about the Masai. I do hope that info's useful to others - the next time it comes up on a forum, or the next time you're accosted in the supermarket (as I was) by an old friend saying 'well, what about the Masai then! They live on 'blood and milk', and they don't have heart problems. What about them, eh?'

Hi Debbie

Could you please provide a link for your article about the Masai

thanks Philippa

Hi flipperjan

Not an article as such - just the post above.

Bryan:

Thank you for your timely and intelligent moderation.

Note: For what it's worth I've often discussed with Community Builder the necessity to limit posts (by and large) in a forum such as this to support or success related posts. Heh..heh. I CAN sympathize with the desire to debate (I spent most of my punk rocker childhood being angry and debating with folks)...but doing the right thing...and supporting others....is often beyond the realm of proof, argument & justification...of course.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Hope Dr. Fuhrman doesn't mind my repeating his most excellent contribution to this subject here below:

[www.diseaseproof.com]

POSTED ON AUGUST 2, 2006 BY JOEL FUHRMAN

Inuit Greenlanders, who historically have had limited access to fruits and vegetables, have the worst longevity statistics in North America. Research from the past and present shows that they die on the average about 10 years younger and have a higher rate of cancer than the overall Canadian population.1

Similar statistics are available for the high meat-consuming Maasai in Kenya. They eat a diet high in wild hunted meats and have the worst life expectancy in the modern world. Life expectancy is 45 years for women and 42 years for men. African researchers report that, historically, Maasai rarely lived beyond age 60. Adult mortality figures on the Kenyan Maasai show that they have a 50% chance of dying before the age of 59.2

We now know that greatly increasing the consumption of vegetables, legumes, fruits, and raw nuts and seeds (and greatly decreasing the consumption of animal products) offers profound increased longevity potential, due in large part to broad symphony of life-extending phytochemical nutrients that a vegetable-based diet contains. By taking advantage of the year-round availability of high-quality plant foods, we have a unique opportunity to live both healthier and longer than ever before in human history.

refs:
Iburg KM, Bronnum-Hansen H, Bjerregaard P. Health expectancy in Greenland. Scand J Public Health 2001;29(1):5-12. Choinere R. Mortality among the Baffin Inuit in the mid-80s. Arctive Med Res 1992;51 (2):87-93.

[www.who.int]