Hi there... some of you may know i have been dealing with acidosis... my chosen path at the moment all raw but no sweet fruits... loads of greens including green powder and juices and such... I'm wondering if anyone knows something about this... I know it is rather difficult to balance the ph once it is out of balance and takes some time... but what i'm noticing is that by checking my urine... in the morning i'm very acidic we're talking 6 sometimes lower... by night time i'm at 7.6-8... and in the morning back down to 6 or below... it seems a drastic fuxuation to me but i am just learning about all this... and i feel like things aren't really changing... any suggestions???

love laugh and dream

I don't think the urine pH is supposed to go up to 7.6 or 8. Six is more the correct place for the urine; it's supposed to be somewhat acidic. The saliva isn't even supposed to go up to 8, is it? It's been a while since I read about this, but I think 7.4 is where the saliva is supposed to be. The pH of different fluids of the body are supposed to vary; maybe you can find a site that gives the different numbers.

Here's an article I wrote all about the acid-alkaline thing, what figures are good, what figures may not be, etc.

Hope it's of help. It's within an e-zine, so you'll need to scroll down.

[www.rawforlife.co.uk]

luvyuu Wrote:
> my chosen path at the
> moment all raw but no sweet fruits...

What do sweet fruit have to do with acidosis? They mostly seem to fall into the 7.0-9.0 (super alkaline) area of the acid/alkaline food charts?

If you are detoxing will that make you acidic? I think I've heard something like that before.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2009 01:14AM by tropical.

All my readings were more alkaline after switching to a raw food diet high in sweet fruit and leaves.

..sounds to me like you are doing great, luvyuu. A urine pH of 5 to 8 is considered normal, and tends to be lower in the morning after a night of fasting. Your daytime high pH 7.6-8 tells me your average pH is in the 6's which is good, imo. I've been stuck in the 5's before for months at a time due to stress and diet, but am now daily ranging from 5.5 to 7.5. A 5 reading gives me a nudge to watch what I eat.

Where I live in the north, sweet fruit in the wintertime tends towards shipped "unripe fruit" which is not all that alkaline, greens being much more so.

peace

Hi, Loeve

Interesting that you say 5 is considered to be in the 'normal' range for urine. Before writing my article, I reviewed what was around on the net, and consensus seemed to be that an early morning urine reading of 5 meant alarm bells...

I HOPE you're right, and that all the terrifying prognoses about early morning readings in the fives are simply due to propaganda put about by the manufacturers of the Ph strips and associated hysteria. (I wouldn't be surprised...)

For example, the ph ion Nutrition company says that 'Your first urine will be the most acidic of the day, but should not be below 6.75'.

I'd hate to have worried readers of my article unnecessarily. Do you have a source?

Also, can we be sure that, whilst an early morning reading of 5 may be 'normal', (as in 'the population on average', ie the 'norm', ingests lots of acid-making foods), that 'normal'in this case is synonymous with 'healthy'?

(Just as an aside, my most acidic pH reading ever for early-morning urine occurred after a meal at Juliano's! Lots of fermented and highly-seasoned/flavoured food.)

Hi Debbie,
I liked your article a lot and thought it very reasonable, though one place we differ is our comfort levels with the more acidic urine readings. I see a pH of 5 as within the normal functioning daily range of the kidneys (for Standard Western dieters), however it is still quite acidic, imo. If I were stuck at pH-5 24 hours a day it would alert me of a possible imbalance, especially if for a long term 801010 dieter, for instance, because fruits and veggies are alkalizing of course.

"The pH of urine is close to neutral (7) but can normally vary between 4.5 and 8. Strongly acidic or alkaline urine may be symptomatic of disease, and may also contribute to disease. In persons with hyperuricosuria, acidic urine can contribute to the formation of stones of uric acid in the kidneys, ureters, or bladder. Urine pH can be monitored by the physician or at home."
[en.wikipedia.org]

.."strongly acidic or alkaline" urine may mean <pH 4.5 or >pH 8.1 -- hard to say. From another source:

"The normal values range from 4.6 to 8.0." (Medline)
[www.nlm.nih.gov]

..normal and healthy are certainly not synonomous. A neutral urine pH around 7 would seem to me ideal. We've had posters here reporting urine? pH in the 8 range which seemed to suit them.

..BTW, I gather diurnal urine pH swings are not well documented, so it's hard to say what a normal daily pH range might be -- a swing of a point or two is common with me.

just my 2cents



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2009 04:10PM by loeve.

Thanks, Loeve

Perhaps we're not so very far apart on the morning urine after all, and we could say an early morning of 5 may be 'normal' for those on the average SAD diet, but that it really should be more alkaline than that. As you said in your first post, perhaps we should view that as a 'nudge' for us to improve things, rather than be unduly alarmed by what the ph strip manufacturers say. Perhaps I'll edit the article just a little. Thanks!

hello there... i remember reading that obviouslly a ph of 6 and below not so good... but if you get a ph of 8 is not good because it is your body overcompensating for being too acidic... i only get these readings at night after i have been eating all alkalizing foods all day... including alkaline drops in my water...

In the ph miracle book by the youngs which is what i have chosen to follow at the moment.... it suggests strongly to avoid sweet fruits and other sugars of course... because of yeasts, parasites, mycotoxins and such... which feed on sugar and create acid as their waste product...in which they love to live in...so they create more... initially to avoid sugar all together for the first 2 months of healing and then to have it sparingly there after... also in my research i have found many different charts where the ph of most sweet fruit is acidic... and is acidifying in nature... and truth as i live in the north there is not much of it growing around here... it's been a month for me with out the fruit... and i don't really miss it so much... occasionally i crave it... but actually i've been craving meat more than anything... i almost feel like my body wants to dig her teeth into something... that all this acid in my body needs more to deal with and so instead i'm digesting my insides... fear not my raw vegan friends... i will keep on the path... but i have had that feeling before... i was very ill with digestive troubles and when i ate meat per suggestion of a healer i heard my body say thank you... and my health improved... it kind of goes against all i have read about meat and the like being acidic...but i am eating a 100% alkalizing diet... and i am still acidic... so... i'm on month 2 of this particular diet plan... high green... diet...and i will keep on... and see how it goes...

So Debbie you say the the number to divide by is 78... that makes quite a bit of difference... why the difference???

love laugh and dream

Because you're dividing by 78 instead of 80.

PS Don't know what charts you've looked at, luvyuu but sweet fruits in general aren't acidic. Most of them are slightly alkaline.

My pH readings were significantly more alkaline after increasing my sweet fruit.

Just did a quick google and this is the first chart I found:

[www.essense-of-life.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2009 08:55PM by debbietook.

From my research, all fruits are base-forming in the body. All animal products and most grain/seed/nuts are acid-forming.

It's also feasible Luvyuu, that toxic build up over decades will take much longer than two months to eliminate. Cravings too, I have found are more to do with the mind than the body.

Cheers geo

..the pH tables are often based on an ash residue procedure where the fruit is burned in the lab and then quantified. The body doesn't work like that.

One way to look at it is you can take fresh grapes with a pH of say 7.5 and ferment them them into wine with a pH of 3.5 without ever having added an ingredient. Bacteria changes the pH. The body metabolizes foods in even more complex ways.

I liked The pH Miracle, btw. How acid is a soft drink? I forget..

I had a book by Jack Tips that had a lot of interesting stuff about pH in it. One thing that I had never read before is about the swings in pH, which he says hit a high two times a day and a low two times a day. The lowest point is around 4 AM and PM, and I can't remember for sure when it hits it's high, but I'm going to assume that it's at 10AM and PM. It's been quite a while since I read it, but from what I remember he said that taking in things that are very alkaline do make your body do a harsher swing in the opposite direction. Mostly he said to beware of things like apple cider vinegar, and gee, I wish I could remember if he put citrus fruit in the same category, because I've been depending on oranges a lot lately. So yes, as loeve said, it's much more complicated than just eating only alkaline foods. Also, and I forget where I read this, some people can get good results with their pH from eating citrus, but others may only become more and more acidic, and the author said that it's because some people lack the minerals that are necessary to change the acids to alkalines. Don't quote me on that one, I do think it may be somewhat incomplete.

Anyway, it's really tricky.

Fermentation does indeed increase acidity. And that's often in my mind when I break the rules, eat fruit on top of other meals and get...blow-up. Like right now.

But my own experience of a high-fruit diet in general is that it raises urine/saliva pH readings.

Violeta, I think perhaps you read that in David Wolfe's 'Sunfood Diet Success System', as he does suggest that.

Loeve said

..the pH tables are often based on an ash residue procedure where the fruit is burned in the lab and then quantified. The body doesn't work like that.

I agree, and this is one reason I believe, that all scientific quantifying of foods is only suggestive and not absolute truth. They also, if I remember, try to emulate 'digestion' in vitro, using various acids. When science can analyse foods without chemicals, cooking or burning, then I will take notice.

Good point, geo.

And before I wrote the article I did consider whether the pronouncements of the various 'experts' on this were really valid. But, as the subject surfaces periodically on forums, thought I'd tackle it, with the rationale that, whatever the case, if it gets people eating more plant foods, so much the better :-)

In Herbs for Detoxification it says that people who have mineral deficiencies, will have an alkaline urine even after eating acid forming foods which should have given them an acidic urine, because ammonia is produced in people with mineral deficiencies, and ammonia makes the urine alkaline!
[books.google.com]

Wow, even your thoughts can affect the ph of your urine! In Conscious Eating by Gabriel Cousens he says:
[books.google.com]
"The mental state of the person also plays an important role in the pH observed in the urine. I've noticed vegetarians whose diet would normally make them alkaline, but because of their negative thinking their urine is acid."

That's a lot of variables that can affect the ph of the urine!

Tropical, thank you for the links to those two books.

violeta

Sure violeta, glad someone found them interesting :-)

Yes, thoughts can affect our pH.

As I wrote in my article:

'(and...anxiety, stress is...acid-forming. Now don't stress about that, will you...)'

violeta Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...Also, and I
> forget where I read this, some people can get good
> results with their pH from eating citrus, but
> others may only become more and more acidic, and
> the author said that it's because some people lack
> the minerals that are necessary to change the
> acids to alkalines. Don't quote me on that one, I
> do think it may be somewhat incomplete.
>
> Anyway, it's really tricky.

Yes, and grapes are picked when their pH is about 3.5 (acidic) and used for grape juices which in turn are about pH 3.5 (correction from my earlier post, and then depend on minerals and the kidneys to keep the blood at pH 7.4. There are sweet grapes and sour ones and they are considered alkalizing in the tables for the most part but it's a mystery to me sometimes.

.."(and...anxiety, stress is...acid-forming. Now don't stress about that, will you...)" ..amen

Now there's food for thought, Loeve. One of my favourite books of dietary instruction, Essene Gospel of Peace says that, 'in the month of' (can't remember which - old Jewish names for months) we should pick the 'sour grape' - I think the reason given was that our bodies 'should reduce'. I've never managed to reconcile that with my understanding of acid/alkaline and the warnings not to eat unripe fruit. But perhaps when we all have just a bit more knowledge that instruction will make sense. All fascinating stuff!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2009 01:28PM by debbietook.

luvyuu,

> loads of greens including green powder and juices and such...

Its the "and such" that is making you acidic. If you are not getting your calories from sweet fruit, then where exactly are your calories coming from? Probably fat, if you are like most raw foodists. Fats are loaded with fatty acids (acid being the key word here). A low carb diet will also put you into a toxic state if you start to have ketosis.

I get most of my calories from sweet fruit, and have for years. And my pH is around 8 all the time.

> Now there's food for thought, Loeve. One of my
> favourite books of dietary instruction, Essene
> Gospel of Peace says that, 'in the month of'
> (can't remember which - old Jewish names for
> months) we should pick the 'sour grape' - I think
> the reason given was that our bodies 'should
> reduce'. I've never managed to reconcile that
> with my understanding of acid/alkaline and the
> warnings not to eat unripe fruit. But perhaps
> when we all have just a bit more knowledge that
> instruction will make sense. All fascinating
> stuff!

..yes Debbie, I recall that in the EGOP, about eating the sour grape in season, and they are sooooo sour with a pH around 3 or 4 -- but juiced with riper ones they make a reasonable tart drink. I grow them and the harvest season can be cut short by a hungry flock of birds that can pick the vines clean of ripe ones in no time. I start juicing them early

..btw, fatty acids are a bit of a misnomer, imo, being 'weak acids' in the human body [en.wikipedia.org]
and luvyuu is more into northern veggies going back several months at least...

ok... so my basic meal plan...with a bit of variance but not much..,

In the morning i have water with ph and ionizing drops...and a super food green powder mineral powder and pre biotic powder... from PH ion

then yoga and falun gong...

then i make juice usually containing cabbage, celery, parsley, cucumber, raddish... it changes a bit from morning to morning but not much...

lunch is... 1 c romaine lettuc 1 c spinach 1 c broccoli 1 cucumber peeled 1 avocado half a lemon a bit of real salt sea salt...

more water...

if i snack it's green snap beans lettuce cucumber or tomato... or sometimes almonds...but i know they are a lot of fat so i try to keep it to twice a week if i have them but they are a weakness... i also sometimes use olive oil...though i'm trying to cut back on this as well...

dinner... is 1 c kale handful of parsley... 1 c cauliflower 1-2 stalks of celery 1-2 radishes sometimes a cucumber... and 1/2 beet... some sea salt 1/2 lemon... 1 TBS cold pressed hemp oil...

more water...

I'm realizing that i need more calorie but i have trouble eating more as i get rather bloated... i have started some sprouts... though they are not ready yet... lentil are my first batch... and soy will be my next... also... i have some sea weed... i just keep forgetting to soak it before i make dinner... and dry seaweed doesn't seem very appetizing...

ok so i wrote all this out so maybe this can help with the "and such" and people can make some suggestions... i'm staying off the sweet fruit just for a bit longer...i have committed to the 2 month thing...and i'd like to see it through...and actually i get really bloated eating fruit...and it triggers me to binge eat...

so are you saying that all fat is acid forming...what about the avocado... and the hemp seed oil... and almonds... it's all so frustrating... one says one... one says another... i'm going to do a composite ph reading starting tomorrow... so we'll see how i'm doing...this morning it was 5.5 before lunch it was 6.5 and so it goes...up ...but by morning it will be down...

ok well love laugh and dream

If you're going to eat concentrated fat, for me (my opinion), the preferences should be first avocado, then coconut, then seeds, then nuts, and lastly cold-pressed, unfiltered, organic oils.

Honestly, I am 5'4, 110-115 lb., muscular, active, and that food you listed wouldn't even be a third enough for me per day. I eat sweet fruit as well, though, so that probably helps get my calories up there.

(Best to soak the nuts & seeds, too, if you can)

I wouldn't do soy sprouts.....I don't have much information from my own experiences except that they can be irritating for some. I definitely avoid any soy or wheat sprouts, but I do eat other mixed sprouts regularly.

"so are you saying that all fat is acid forming...what about the avocado... and the hemp seed oil... and almonds..."

..not at all, those are all healthy foods. Acocados are avocados.. etc.

If they are within your chosen path then that's all that's important.

Olive oil is good too as shown by the Mediterranian diet, tho I agree with Utopian Life.

I'm partial to coconuts and am trying to add more carrots, lentils, flax and fruit to head off the binges.