I'd love to get in touch with the Natural Hygienist Virginia Vetrano, but I've sent two e-mails over the past few months and received no answer.

As I believe she's in her 80s, have to ask...is she still with us? And, if so, does anyone have a contact e-mail for her? (my attempts have been via her site).

I bet Dave Klein (livingnutrition.com) will know. I'll ask him.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Thank you, kwan. Look forward to hearing.

Just remember her time is worth money so if you call makes sure you are prepared for this.

I disagree completely with her position on B12.

That's all I wanted to say.

arugula

Quote

I disagree completely with her position on B12.

I am not familiar with her position on B12. What does she think about B12 ? Thanks.

She says there is no such thing as a vitamin B12 deficiency in her
Rethinking & Clarifying the Vitamin B12 Issue blurb. In it she makes a number of errors. People post it often.

There are over 3800 papers on B12 deficiency. Most of them involve non-vegans mainly because people who rely on food sources (i.e. animals or animal products) tend to become less able to get it from their food as they age due to diminished production of HCL in the stomach.

There are a lot more older omnis in this world than vegans.

But vegans can also be affected by completely neglecting to secure a reliable source (i.e. supplement) for too long.

Left unchecked it has serious consequences.

So I don't think she is doing anyone a service by saying it doesn't exist. I believe she wrote what she thought without bothering to look at the "other side." That's the impression I get from her writing.

Its good to look at all sides of any issue in order to get a better view.
Thanks arugula, I value your perspective.

Interesting re the B12. One of my e-mails to her (unanswered) was to see if her position on B12 had changed at all since her writings on this in the Eighties.

I don't supplement.

And, so (note this is unrelated to the above, as we all die sooner or later) -

is she still alive?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2009 08:39AM by debbietook.

yes she is still alive.

lovely lady and one that fasts to clean out her cooked food binges cos she undereats on fruit..

when vivian learns how to eat enough fruit, she wont need the cooked food and wont need to fast off the weight gain that ensues..

Thanks, DR :-)

not making VV wrong, but i think she does dairy also?

Some Natural Hygienists do, but had assumed she didn't. But if she does, that does rather put a spanner in the works re her writings advising B12 supplementation not necessary...:-)

Can you provide proof of this?

globalresult Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you provide proof of this?


of dairy? i could be misremembering, i'm not not sure.

I think everyone should supplement with methylcobalamin sublingually or by injection, even if they eat animal products.

Why is that?

>Why is that?

Some people have inadequate uptake, even when diet is outwardly sufficient, via the digestive route.

The Food Board recommends supplements for people over 50 (or 55?, not really sure exactly, can't remember).

Uptake is better if it is absorbed through the mucous membranes (sublingual) or injected.

I checked with Dave Klein, and he says Virginia Vetrano is 'still alive and thriving.'

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Excellent news. I wish she'd answer the e-mail I sent several months ago though.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Why is that?
>
> Some people have inadequate uptake, even when diet
> is outwardly sufficient, via the digestive route.
>
> The Food Board recommends supplements for people
> over 50 (or 55?, not really sure exactly, can't
> remember).
>
> Uptake is better if it is absorbed through the
> mucous membranes (sublingual) or injected.


Yep. Also, by the time symptoms of a deficiency form, sometimes it's too late and neurological problems have already arisen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2009 06:43PM by Utopian Life.

Can you provide any examples of this "to late" or is this another urban legend?

I'd like to know what the sympoms are for B12 deficiency, and see some citations/links to academic sources for verification, as the journal article below from 2008 says there's no consensis as to the level of serum b12 where it becomes deficient; hence,how could they know what the symptoms are???

The relative impact of a vegetable-rich diet on key markers of health in a cohort of Australian adolescents
Ross Grant, Ayse Bilgin, Carol Zeuschner, Trish Guy, et al. Asia Pacific Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Southbank: 2008. Vol. 17, Iss. 1; pg. 107, 8 pgs

Also, the link below is very interesting, and is credible enough to be included in one of my Uni's databases.

[www.drmcdougall.com]

Thanks,

I agree.

Like many other urban legends in the health world.

You can Google it real easily. B12 deficiency symptoms is a good start. I'm not going to do research work for you unless you want to pay me a fair hourly rate.

How about helping out your fellow human?

You made a statement and would like to see proof of the need for B12 supplementation.

Hello all,

In the book 'the live food factor there is a good deal of info on b12. Dr G. Cousens cites cases with a fruitarian diet causing b12 lack. I don't know who is right but thought I would add to this thread. I haven't finished the entire book yet.

Dr. Cousens cites 3 cases..... Johnny Lovewisdom's vegan community in Equador, a fruitarian community in Austrailia, & a group of African Americans who migrated to Israel. These are in his book Spiritual Nutritian which I have not had the pleasure of reading as of yet.

Also I just started going 90% raw on 1/1/09 & may not be the best source of reliable information on this. I just thought I would share what I've read so far.

Blessings to All.........
Joe

Love is patient, love is kind, it is not self-seeking, love ALWAYS protects,always endures. (1corinthians 13)

God IS love!! (1john4)
Jesus Christ...... The ONLY way to Heaven.
I am the Way, the Truth & the Life..(John 14:6)

[here's no consensis as to the level of serum b12 where it becomes deficient; hence,how could they know what the symptoms are??? ]

Yep, this is correct, and it's why they use different markers when accuracy is desired:

-methlmalonic acid/creatine in the urine

or

-methlymalonic acid and homocysteine in the plasma

The wiki page is a good place to start.
[en.wikipedia.org]

So if they can't come to a collective gathering then maybe they are off on the whole B12 issue?

I have not known even in todays media to know of anyone who is B12 dificient?

Lifestyle deficienient yes but nor B12 specificially.

I had symptoms of B12 deficiency after 15 years 100% vegan with no supplements and no B12 fortified foods. I had been all raw about 99% of the time.

My symptoms were the classic tingling in the fingers and toes. I started taking B12 supplements, and the symptoms went away in about a month, never to return. That was about 7 years ago. B12 is the only supplement I take.