Hail Raw Family
I am so glad to be here in this forum, I need support and advice.
I been at least 80% raw since October 2008, at first I shed loads of weight without trying, 66lbs in 3 months, which I needed to do starting at 270.
Now 6 months later I am at 198 and I have been at this weight for nearly 3 months, just releasing 5 or 6 lbs.
I tried to reduce my food, decrease fat, decreasing carbs, I am low protein anyway and I don't miss it. Yet I get cravings particularly for sweet fruits and fat and have had some binges, particularly around my menses!
I have another question, as an Afrikan descendant, does the standard raw vegan diet suffice for us too, given that we have a different physiological makeup. Not to be prejudicial, I am curious. Do I need extra supplements, or should I be ommitting things?
These are the crazy things that go through my head because this lifestyle has me excited, yet stuck at this weight and I want to get to what God intended me to be. I have enjoyed my journey and learning so far, and am not willing to abandon it through lack of progress. Some suggest more protien, yet my nutritionist, who is Eco-raw vegan, is very anti it as it causes high cortisol and stress which I have too much of anyway.
I live in the Caribbean, so we don't have access to alot of the resources North Americans have, when you guys get avocadoes, which grow here, we can't get any! I guess they're sold for foreign exchange.
Happy to be hear and I am blessed by your response.
Peace
Okun Deji Nu

Hi OkunDeji,

I think many people here would agree that you can probably eat as much sweet fruit as you feel comfortable eating (but don't forget to brush your teeth and/or rinse with salt water afterwards).

In addition to fruit, I personally found that staying raw became much easier when I started allowing myself to eat nuts and seeds. When I would eat only fruit, avocados, and vegetables I'd get REALLY hungry about every 3 weeks. And then I'd end up eating huge portions of rice and pasta and beans.

I like what I'm doing now much better. Nuts and seeds are very high in nutrients, including beneficial fats that will often help provide a natural satisfaction. Whenever I eat too many nuts/seeds, it's usually after going for a while without them. Then the next day, I eat less. It seems to balance out. Binges happen to lots of people, especially during the first year or more of being raw, no matter what color they happen to be. It seems to me that when I tried to be too restrictive, and when I omitted raw foods like nuts and seeds that are a concentrated source of nutrients, I would end up sabotaging myself because my body was always saying, "I'm HUNGRY!"

Whole raw nuts and seeds have not been found to contribute to diseases and weight gain often associated with diets high in fatty foods from meats and foods fried in hydrogenated vegetable oils. Studies are ongoing as to why whole raw nuts and seeds do not appear to contribute to weight gain.

An occasional short water fast or a semi-fast on only juice or only smoothies, etc. can be great, but be careful that it doesn't end up with overeating later.

And of course, exercise! The more the better, as long as you're not straining yourself.

Whatever dietary/lifestyle choices another person might make is fine with me, and I hope no one takes offense by anything I've said. We're all individuals with a right to choose for ourselves, of course!

Peace to you as well OkunDeji, and all the fine raw food family!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2009 04:52AM by suncloud.

Are you exercising? If not, find something fun that gets you moving like yoga, dance, hiking, anything to get your blood pumping and your endorphins flowing.

Thank you for your input and suggestions Suncloud and Lee_123. I do exercise by swimming in the sea two times per week, I do 12 sun salutations every morning to warm up and I have a garden in the back where you will find 2 or 3 times a week pulling about.
I also did not mean to offend anyone, I just wondering...
The information about binging helps me feel more normal, although it is something I use to do a lot when i was on cooked food and it is not something that I like to do.
I have recorded my meals on FitDay and I usually eating between 1700 and 2100 calories per day. This is what I ate yesterday
Breakfast: (juice) 8 oz string beans, 8 oz tomatoes, 8 oz cucumber 5 oz cabbage then blended with 3 bananas and vit E oil 1 tsp spirulina and psyllium husks
Lunch: (juice) 8 oz pak choi and 8 oz cucumber. 1 cup millet, 1 cup stir fry cabbage, 0.5 tbs coconut oil, 1 tbs hazelnut butter, 8 oz tomatoes sliced
Dinner: (blended) 4 oz spinach 4 oz lettuce 2 lbs pineapple 5 oz pumpkin (juiced) 2 tbbs raisins 1 oz walnuts
This is about 2100 calories. I am on my menstrual cycle and always seem hungrier when it's on and it's when I eat the most fat.
Is more exercise alone enough to shift the pounds? I am willing to try it. I will pull my bicycle out of the cellar, clean it up fix ti up and get peddling.
Thanks for the encouragement
Okun Deji Nu

Okun Deji,

Welcome! After perusing your daily intake for yesterday, I may only suggest that you increase the fruit consumption. By a lot. A LOT. Your liver and brain need carbohydrates to function properly and to keep your metabolism at peak levels. Race and ethnicity have nothing to do with it, dear--we are all primates and primates crave fruits! While your low-carb vegetables are of a good variety, in my opinion, you are not consuming enough fructose to fuel your organism. If you are craving sweet fruits, this is a sign! I eat primarily fruits in the morning and switch to greens and fatty fruits and nuts in the afternoon and p.m. Sometimes I have a green smoothie for breakfast and lunch, but if I do, it's about half fruit by weight. Let us know how you are doing with your new bking/swimming regimen--oh, I envy your salt water swims . . .

I forgot to add a mango to my lunchtime meal. It weighed about a pound.
Okun Deji

Hi Tamukha
So I should not worry about calories? I did feel satisfied yesterday. I forgot to add a mango to my lunch meal. I thought everything was carbs, except for nuts and oils. yesterday broke down as 69% carb, 24% fat 7% protein.
In the beginning it seemed so simple, now there is tweaking and this and that. I guess I am really lazy, I just want someone to say here, eat this and forget about it!
As a borderline diabetic, I guess I have a residual fear of sweet fruits and of fasting. I am willing to keep going because what else have I got to do except live. How I used to be before was like death warmed up. I just don't want to be fat anymore, I'm tired of it, I just want to see some progress, not huge anmounts just some.
Fructose I have heard of, it is a sugar like glucose, I will do some more research on it.
Thanks for your support
Okun Deji Nu

I am not diabetic, so I cannot say for certain, but I believe from a clinical perspective, consuming too few calories and feeling at all hungry is far worse for the pancreas than eating fructose, provided there isn't a lot of fat circulating in the bloodstream at the same time. The World Health Organization and most "diet" doctors besides Atkins recommend no more than 20% of calories from fat, with 15% being the preferred maximum. Fructose is metabolized very quickly, far too quickly to cause erratic spikes in insulin, as long as the ratio of fat in the bloodstream is relatively low. Can you tell I've been reading Doug Graham's "80/10/10"? If you are concerned about fructose, make sure to eat it in whole fruit form, as the fiber helps slow things down, and/or chase your fruits with greens. But, in any case, please make sure you are consuming enough calories from raw foods that aren't high in fat to register satiation. Hunger is murder on the metaboism.

Wassup buddy, I say quit thinking too much and focus on feeling!

Use your own intuition/gut instinct, only you know what you really want and need at any given moment and there's really no right or wrong unless your really grossly over eating.Internet buddies know nothing about you.

Going raw is tough and slipping up is a given...period.... so expect some bumps in the road.

Sounds to me like your doing perfectly normal.

JS

OkunDeji,

I forgot to congratulate you. You've already made some incredible progress! Your diet sounds pretty good to me. Is the millet raw (sprouted)?. If not, maybe try going without it (or sprout it), and see if that doesn't help.

Since your weight loss has now slowed down, I would concentrate on getting the bingeing under control, and increasing the exercise. Biking sounds like a great idea! Time to begin really enjoying your new raw food life!

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The World Health Organization and most "diet"
> doctors besides Atkins recommend no more than 20%
> of calories from fat, with 15% being the preferred
> maximum. Fructose is metabolized very quickly, far too
> quickly to cause erratic spikes in insulin, as long as
> the ratio of fat in the bloodstream is relatively low.
> Can you tell I've
> been reading Doug Graham's "80/10/10"?

With all due respect for you Tamukha, who I personally admire very much, Dr. Graham's information on World Health Organization recommendations is NOT correct.

According to the World Health Organization's "WHO/FAO release independent Expert Report on diet and chronic disease":

"The Expert Report's specific recommendations on diet include limiting fat to between 15 and 30 percent of total daily energy intake and saturated fats to less than 10 percent of this total." (italics mine) ([www.who.int]

I'm not familiar with "diet" doctors, but most medical doctors (MDs) do not have extensive training in nutrition, unfortunately. Registered Dieticians (RDs) generally have many more hours nutrition training than MDs. According to the American Dietetics Association:

"The 2005 Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommend keeping total fat between 20 - 35 percent of our total calories." ([www.eatright.org]

Many new studies are finding evidence that nuts/seeds are beneficial for diabetics! From an article on a very recent study (Tree Nuts and Diabetes, April 16, 2009 [www.blisstree.com]):

"Tree nuts (pecans, almonds, cashews, Brazil nuts, pine nuts, walnuts, and hazelnuts) have for some time been known to help reduce the risk of heart disease. Now there is evidence to suggest that they may reduce the risk of non-insulin dependent (type 2) diabetes. Researchers from the University of Toronto and St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto are presenting a paper at this week's Experimental Biology Annual Meeting in New Orleans to support this theory.

"According to Cyril Kendall, Ph.D., of the University of Toronto, 'This is the largest study done to date looking at the effect of tree nuts and peanuts on Type 2 diabetes'.

"According to Maureen Ternus, M.S., R.D., Executive Director of the International Tree Nut Council Nutrition Research & Education Foundation, "While we've known for years that eating 1.5 ounces of nuts per day can help reduce the risk for heart disease, these findings show that consuming nuts may now be helpful in controlling Type 2 diabetes as well."

And from www.defeatdiabetes.org, "The Nuts That May Clobber Cholesterol" [www.defeatdiabetes.org]:

"Phytosterols are found only in plant-based foods and very closely resemble the molecular structure of cholesterol. But unlike cholesterol, phytosterols are not easily absorbed by the body. Scientists believe that because of this, the compound can partially block cholesterol from being absorbed, thereby lowering overall cholesterol levels naturally."

Virginia Messina is a vegan dietician who wrote the following vegetarian fact sheet for the American Dietetics Association (A New Food Guide for North American Vegetarians [www.eatright.org]):

"Fats: Vegetarians and others who do not eat fish require small amounts of plant sources of n-3 fats. In addition, research suggests that moderate intake of certain healthful plant fats may reduce risk for cardiovascular disease, may improve nutrient intake, and may even aid in weight control."

About fructose: Consuming fructose from concentrated sources like corn syrup has a different effect on the body than consuming fructose from whole raw fruits. Most dietetics today are saying "corn syrup no", "whole fruits, yes" for diabetics. Here's an excerpt from an interesting article called "The Fructose Puzzle", by David Mendoza, 2006 [www.healthcentral.com]:

"Many of our favorite fruits and vegetables get their sweetness from fructose...

"And yet many people link our increased consumption of fructose to the national obesity epidemic. Generally, these people aren't talking about the fructose in fruits and vegetables. Most of them are, however, concerned about the fructose in high fructose corn syrup, which we are consuming ever more of, particularly in soft drinks...

"'Fructose may adversely effect plasma lipids', the ADA says. 'Therefore, the use of added fructose as a sweetening agent is not recommended; however, there is no reason to recommend that people with diabetes avoid naturally occurring fructose in fruits, vegetables, and other foods.'"

In my experience, lots of exercise and a varied, nonrestrictive raw food diet using whole, live raw foods as much as possible is most conducive for optimal weight and long term consistency and satisfaction.

It's worked for me!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2009 10:53PM by suncloud.

suncloud,

You are correct about the WHO; I misquoted them. The maxiumum limit of 30% is accurate. I am mortified, and deserve to have my University degree revoked, aggghhh!

The doctors I refer to are Pritikin, Ornish, and Barnard, all successful low-fat practioners.

The ADA does correlate sugar with blood lipid levels, but as usual, they've got it backwards. It is pre-existing elevated plasma lipid levels that react adversely with sugar[fructose or sucrose]; the causal relationship is fat to sugar, not the reverse. Fructose from whole fruits in the absence of elevated plasma lipid levels has not been shown to have any adverse effect. Graham cites articles from the AJCN to support this.

The problem occurs, and it pains me to say this as a nut lover, when the ADA recommends people eat nuts to control symptoms of diabetes mellitus, ignoring the biochemical interaction with carb-rich produce, which is more nutritious calorie for calorie. It's true doctors don't study much nutrition(oh the arguments I have had!), but the ADA's nutrition guidelines are as much about "managing symptoms" as are the AMA's. IMO, though they may be trying a bit harder, when it comes down to it, there is nothing curative in the recommendations of the average dietician or nutritionist, because that's not their job.

Totally concur that a non-restrictive whole raw foods diet is optimum!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2009 11:26PM by Tamukha.

Tamukha, no worries! Thanks for correcting the record!

If a person can follow a low-fat raw food diet and know that they're getting enough essential nutrients like iron, calcium and zinc, plus stay consistent and not binge, then go for it! But, if not, then it may be time to try something new.

It's fairly simple to get enough essential nutrients on a raw food vegan diet that includes moderate amounts of nut/seeds. It's not so simple to get those nutrients on a low-fat raw food diet.

A lack of essential nutrients can trigger binges. 80-10-10 is not necessarily the know-all, be-all, all-time raw vegan diet.

The Ornish diet gets essential nutrients from dairy products; the Pritikin diet gets essential nutrients from lean meats. Neither diet was formulated with vegans in mind.

The Barnard diet is vegan, but gets essential nutrients from cooked grains and beans.

All these diets were formulated with the knowledge that the Standard American high-meat-fat diet leads to chronic disease. We don't yet know if a raw food diet containing moderate amounts of nuts/seeds might be as successful in its effects on diabetes as any of the above diets, but there is evidence that nuts/seeds lower the risk of diabetes.

It's very important to note that the biochemical interaction of fats from whole nuts/seeds is different than the biochemical interaction of fats from meat/dairy/vegetable oils.

I don't agree that "the ADA recommends people eat nuts to control symptoms of diabetes mellitus..." The ADA (American Dietetic Association) believes that some foods are good for us, and some foods are not good for us (same as we believe). They try to incorporate the best available science in making their dietary recommendations. I'm not aware that they generally ignore biochemical interactions or that they make recommendations based on controlling symptoms. Members of ADA are required to have an extensive scientific background, including nutritional science and biochemistry. They accept the vegan diet as healthy, and have many members who follow vegan and vegetarian diets. Some members are conventional dieticians, others are not. The ADA is not associated with the American Medical Association.

The articles from the ADA that I quoted above, say nothing about diabetes.

All that aside, I think we agree a lot more than we disagree!

Let's keep in touch, and in 40 years (when I'm 98, and you're not too far behind), we'll probably both know a lot more then!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2009 01:52AM by suncloud.

great links, suncoud, thanks tamuhka, too

suncloud,

Deal![holds hand out for a shake] : )

Hi Okun, congrats on going raw! That's incredible that you can't get avocados in the Caribbean. My eating schedule is fruit in the morning (several times) and greens blended with warm water, tomatos, celery and avocados for lunch (green smoothie),then I often eat something cooked for dinner. I would really miss the avocados.

From what I know about diabetes, greens and flax are vital. I wouldn't worry about your fat intake level as much as I would worry about the type of fat. Some fats block the insulin receptors on the surface of the cells so the insulin can't attach to the cells and usher glocose into the cells - causing insulin resistance, but Omega 3s decrease insulin resistance!

I haven't totally processed all the info on this site, (and I'm not recommending anthing but the flax), but it's interesting because it goes into detail about Omega 3's and other supplements. It recommend 4 T of flax seeds oil a day.
[www.cancertutor.com]

In the book There is a Cure for Diabetes they talk about eating a lot of greens (1+ pounds a day) and how to actually work that amount of greens into your diet:
[books.google.com]

Also, have you seen this CNN clip, by Sanjay Gupta, about Angela Stokes? She talks about how she lost 160 pounds and she recommends starting at 50% raw and working up from there.
[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2009 05:59PM by tropical.

Wow! (((Tamukha, Suncloud and everybody))). Thank you all so much for so much information (which I haven't had a chance to read it all yet) and your supportive suggestions.
I'm feeling better and more normal about my process, which is just wonderful and it helps me feel more grounded.
I am going to get my bicycle out the cellar tomorrow and get it ready for the road. Like Jerico said, I need to think less and just stick with this process. The nutritionist I was working with allows for cooked grains, boiled or steamed, 3 or 4 times per week. I haven't even been doing it that much, which I thought was the problem with not loosing weight!
My old food head was telling me stop eating fat, which I did and I didn't loose weight, I went back to the nutritionist plan which includes 2-4 tbs healthy fats and I started to loose again, what's that about? I will read the info presented and see if it explains that phenomenon.
Maybe I am a bit obsessed about weight. I was 325lb at my heaviest 12 years, now I am awake it is my goal to stay awake and alive and healthy.
Health is my goal.
Peace to you all
Okun Deji Nu

Hi everybody
Just to update you. Last month I released 8.5lbs. Yippee, I weigh myself once a month (otherwise I would be obsessive and compulsive about it). It's strange because last month I was less than perfect on my raw vegan path, bread and a lot more cooked vegan entered my diet, however I felt poorly because of it and want to return to the boundless energy I had at the beginning. So much great information and suggestions
Thank you all
OD

Hi OkunDeji!
How about trying to build some more muscles through strength training? I know for myself to even maintain my weight I need to exercise about an hour and a half about 5 days a week, including cardio and strength training. Muscle burns more calories than fat, so I think it could really help you lose the last few pounds. As a bonus, it can make you look great even before you lose any weight. My legs, arms, stomach, and bum all look much better since I've been doing strength training. Things like sit-ups, lunges, squats, lifting weights...I think there must be a website that could give you some tips. Good luck!

Glad to see you're feeling better OkunDeji!

It's such a learning process, and we're all so different. But everything we learn is one more step in the right direction, thank goodness!

Tamukha, you out there?

Just wondering, because I thought you might like to know that I reduced my own fat consumption several days ago, and I like! I didn't go down to 10% (makes me feel too hungry, even with lots of fruits and greens). BUT, I went down to 15% - 20% (I was around 25% - 30%).

I now have 1/4 cup sesame seeds or sunflower seeds or macadamia nuts or walnuts with lots of whole fruits in the mornings. Then I have 1/2 avocado with greens, cucumber, tomatoes, seaweed in the late afternoon. I rotate between the seed days and the nut days - seeds for boosting calcium, iron, and zinc; nuts for a better omega ratio. The nutrients average out well, so that I'm getting enough of everything (My BMI is 16.4). So far so good. I'm fasting one day a week (down from 2 days a week previously). We'll see how this is over time.

Yes, I definitely need to do more exercise. I have my bicycle out for the cardio however the weather has been terrible, we just moved into our rainy season and it has been pouring, blessings on the rain!
I have some weights too, pep bottles of various sizes filled with water, however I been going through an anaemia thing and energy levels have been very poor and low. So low I don't have the energy to sleep, what's that about?
I not event managing to do my Tibetan rites and Sun salutations.
It's weird because as a youth I used to love sports and exercise, now I look at it as a chore, doh! This head of mine is soooo bad.

OkunDeji,too bad about the rain, but riding your bike sounds like fun. I haven't ridden a bike in so long. I think I'll get my bike out and see how rusty it is!

Maybe you'll get over the anaemia soon and get your energy back. Hope so!

suncloud!

Hiya! I am intrigued by your fat reduction, and wonder if you will feel better/worse/about the same as on higher fat in the long run. Rotating the fats sounds like a good idea. Keep us posted. I subscribe to the "simplify, simplify" philosophy. I am always looking for the dross and trying to eliminate it, wherever in my life I may find it--activities, habits, relationships, diet. I think I might have pathological minimalism--a fatal case, gasp!

OkunDeji,
I am starting to exercise again after our long, brutal winter, and I find that old adage about how doing what you enjoy negates its being a "chore" is very apt. Just try to do whatever you used to enjoy and see if the desire is still there. Or try something novel and see if that doesn't please you in a new way.

As for your fatigue: have you considered a B12/Vitamin D deficiency? Anemia doesn't usually manifest as insomnia, but a deficiency can. Likewise, adrenal, thryroid, or pituitary disorder, which could be exacerbated by insufficient D or B12. If you are doing intensive raw and are detoxing, it is possible that your chemistry is off; there are reports of this happening, and while your body is adjusting, you may feel tired during the day and restless and alert at night. But if this persists for weeks and weeks, and you don't experience benefits in other ways, I'd have someone look me over and run some tests.

It's true, once I start I enjoy. I went on a bike ride with my neighbour in December. It was fun, then....well my procrastinating life took over.
You could be right. It may not be anaemia it couldbe B12. I remember I had been using this multi-vit and mineral powder. However they were very expensive here, US$40 for 15 days supply. I just didn't have the money anymore. That ended about 2 or 3 weeks ago so maybe it took some time for it to leave my system. I get plenty vitamin D, living in the tropics.
I am confused really because I thought raw foods were the best way to eat, yet it seems I need supplementation.
I also see some long term raw foodists using digestive enzymes daily, weird. Obviously our foods are still depleted as our soils continue to be compromised. Sad.
On another natural hygeine raw food site they say no supplementation at all! At the end of the day I just want to be and feel well and strong. I still have some weight loss to go, however I don't feel as brilliant as I did when I first started out. I hanging in though because this is the only thing that has brought me even close to my goal in nearly 12 years, it feels like I am starting to break down, and with it my resolve is fading, getting a lot of using thoughts, the tiredness is a real spirit killer.
I thank all of you for your non judgemental support.
Peace

We absorb B12 better sublingually and in the form of methylcobalamin. This is true for raw foodists (vegan or not), cooked foodists, and everything in between. It's just better absorbed that way. Had humans not caused depletion of soil minerals, maybe this wouldn't be necessary, but when it comes to B12, I don't think it's wise to look backward at coulda/shoulda/woulda; it's best to look FORWARD, think about the future, and to be safe, as the long-term effects of a deficiency can be permanent and debilitating.

Tamukha, I think the "simplify, simplify" philosophy is a great philosophy! You probably don't have a "fatal" case though. Quite the opposite!

I was going along very well on my new lower fat system, until Monday. The problem seems to be trying to fit less nuts/seeds into something that's workable for me. To explain: I've always had a problem with eating greens everyday. I thought maybe I could eat greens everyday if I ate less nuts/seeds. But yesterday, I woke up with the same old symptoms from greens: extremely dry skin, itchiness, swollen eyes, loss of color, fatigue.

It's kind of hard to eat less nuts/seeds everyday, if I can't also eat greens everyday. I get too HUNGRY eating just 1/4 cup nuts seeds and 1/2 avocado, plus only fruit. Also, I've had calcium and iron deficiencies in the past, and it's hard to meet those mineral needs with less nuts/seeds, a lot of fruit, and no greens.

But I notice that on days when I don't eat greens, if I double the amount of nuts/seeds/avo to 1/2 cup of nuts/seeds and 1 whole avocado a day, I end up eating more fruit too - and so I still only get 22% fat. That's not too bad I think. Anyway, I feel good; and 22% is still a fat reduction for me (percentage-wise, though of course it's really twice the fat).

I usually do eat greens 2 or 3 times a week (just can't eat them everyday). This was a worthwhile experiment, because now I know that on my fruits/nuts/seeds/greens days, I can easily eat under 20% fat. And on my fruits/nuts/seeds days I can still keep my fat percent below 25% and feel satisfied and get lots of nutrients.

I thank you for helping to put that bug in my ear!

Interestingly, I gained weight when I ate less calories (about 1850) on 18% fat (eating fruits, nuts/seeds/avo and greens). I lost weight when I ate more calories (about 2850) on 22% fat (eating fruits, nogreens, and twice as much seeds/avo).

My exercise routine was identical on all days.

I tried posting the charts, but I can only link one chart or the other for some reason.

Anyway, I have no idea why more calories and more fat = less weight; it may have something to do with the vegetable salts, including from the seaweed. Still, it comes out to a only a small amount of sodium (189 mg) - only 8% of the RDA. So I'd think that the calorie "rule" would apply, if it's a viable rule.

And vice versa. If the calorie "rule" is viable, I should gain weight on 2850 calories, but instead, I lost weight.

Maybe vegetables tend to "stick to the ribs" more. (?)

Strange. I've come to believe that "calories" are a measuring stick that doesn't equally apply on a raw food diet.

OkunDeji,

Hi! Sorry to stray from the topic!

I agree that a methylcobalamin B12 supplement could be very helpful.

Check [www.vegansociety.com]

I don't think there's a need for other supplementation or digestive enzymes if we're careful to fill our other nutrient needs, chew our food well, and not eat too much. We can do that!

For many people, the choice to be a raw food vegan is primarily a humanitarian choice.

One choice is not necessarily more "natural" than another. Probably the most natural choice is the one that makes each of us feel the best! For me, that's a raw food vegan diet, supplemented with B12.

Humans, like all organisms, are evolving.

So, IMO, however we personally feel strongest, and however we personally feel most comfortable in our ecological relationships, that is probably our own best choice, and therefore, the most "natural" choice.

Admittedly though, it's a learning process trying to figure out what that is!

Tamukha, I wish I could edit something I said above. I said:

> Anyway, I
> feel good; and 22% is still a fat reduction for me
> (percentage-wise, though of course it's really
> twice the fat).

What I meant was that it's twice the fat (by quantity) than I was eating on my greens days. It's still less fat than what I was eating before (It's not twice the fat that I was eating before).

With all that nonessential information, I feel like a word monster. Sorry everybody!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2009 03:11AM by suncloud.

suncloud,

I get what you mean! I think what you are describing can be of use to the op because it demonstrates that there are no hard and fast rules about calorie consumption and metabolic function. You are using trial, error, and obeservation to work out a feasible and salutary regimen for your particular organism. That's what OkunDeji must do, and I, and everybody else! Thanks!