I know in these cases there's often information that we are not party to, ie the real situation is more complex than it first appears, but having read the account of what's happening here, feel it should be brought to your attention. Really hope people here can help.

I've copied here a post that's just arrived on the Raw Food UK forum from Alison Banville:

(note the case is to be discussed TODAY, 15th July, but there's still time to help. (eg I've just posted for attention of the judge the recent American Dietetic Association on vegetarian diets. Anything 'official' you can find, eg anything from a medical doctor would be good.). Even though it's 8 am 15th July here and midnight in West Coast USA, I'm hoping some of you night owls can send something that will help.
_________________________________________________________________________________

I received this today - just seen it - it's unbelievable! -


Reunite Severine and Elie - vegan family torn apart by the authorities!

Hi there,

Could you please take a moment today to read this interview of Severine Gerard,
here:

[www.americanchronicle.com]

Severine needs your help ASAP, as her case will be discussed in court on the
15th July (tomorrow!).

Basically Severine had her 2 year old son violently taken away from her by the
French police while she was in France (She is Belgian), because she was bringing
him up on a vegan diet. Please read the interview to read what the paediatrician
said about veganism and children during the first court hearing. It's
unbelievable, it sounds like these people are stuck in the stone age!!

Her son Elie has been placed with a foster family, she tried to have him back
and the French authorities locked
her up in an asylum. She is out now and explains everything by herself in the
interview I'm asking you to read.

She needs your help now: She needs you to write messages of support to the judge
Jacqueimin, to share your experience as vegan parents with vegan children, about
the fact that a healthy vegan diet is not dangerous to children and that
bringing up your son/daughter on a vegan diet is not child abuse.

It would be brilliant if the parents of healthy and happy vegan children could
send him testimonials in an attempt to make him change his mind and let Severine
have her 2 year old son back (please read the interview for the full story).

There are not that many vegan parents in France, and they are scared of getting
involved and writing testimonials as they fear being reported to social services
for being nothing more than... Vegan! So as vegan parents from the UK you can
help, and that would be immensely appreciated, as so far
no one is helping her and she is really isolated (the Belgian authorities
can't/won't help).

As vegans or as parents of vegan children... Please help her...

When you write your own message of support/testimonial:

=> Make sure it's written in a polite way

=> Address it to the Judge Jacqueimin

=> It doesn't matter if it's in English




Please don't forget to put your name and address, to prove you are a real
person and that it hasn't been made up, as is the case with petitions.

Send your messages/testimonials for the judge Jacqueimin to Guenady:
speakeasy@..., she'll be able to pass them along before the trial.

Please pass this message along!

If you can think of anyone you know who could give a good testimonial (a vegan
friendly health practioner? A vegan friendly nutritionist? A vegan friendly
journalist? Anyone you can think of...) Please ask them to do so ASAP, as time
is running out and any help is needed as so far there is none!

Severine really needs your help right now as she is extremely desperate.

The French authorities are not well known for understanding any non-meat-eating
diet (believe me, I'm French and that's one of the reasons why I left France to
come to the UK, and to be honest I'm so glad I did
when I read that kind of story...

Anyway, please take a moment to help her, and let's keep our fingers crossed...

Thanks for reading,

Noemie.
PS: If you know anyone who could help in France, the interview of Severine
Gerard is available in French here:
[www.facebook.com]\
475e75bacc1e56c8dabbb2964efb

Debbie,

I know you to be a assiduous about your sources, but . . . are you absolutely sure this is legit? The thing that bothered me, and I'm sure you noted this, is that the French "police" took custody of a child of a foreign national . . . for being vegan. I cannot imagine how many international laws this breaks. For starters, as far as I know in the EU, as here, it is the Social Services authorities that take custody of a child, and it must be a verifiable persistant situation of "risk." The cops would be involved if it were a situation of imminent harm, i.e. dangling vegan toddler out of window over street. The "American Chronicle" interview with the mother certainly reads fishy; I mean no disrespect but strictly from the interview, she sounds unstable. In fact, the whole interview sounds like an excerpt from Hugo. I know that children have been removed from the homes of vegan parents in various countries, but in the cases I'm familiar with, there was demonstrable malnutrition. Or there was concern about the mental health of the caregiver. Or something significant. I know the French like their duck and veal and pork, but this just sounds odd . . .

You are no doubt correct that there is probably more to this story. Alow me to speculate: Father of Elie is a French national, and is estranged from mom because she does things like buying guns, not real ones but not toys, either, to intimidate foster parents with. Father pleads with French authorities to recover his child so he can raise him in a stable[possibly also vegan] home. No mention of father in interview is troubling.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2009 02:02PM by Tamukha.

Tamukha, I'm thorough generally, but, no, I'll admit I didn't double-check, as time was of the essence. I didn't read it through or think about it in much detail. And I can be gullible...

It's been discussed on the Raw Food UK, and some have delved, and opinion's divided. One found a report on it in the French media (in French), but can't remember where that was.

Your points are good, and it may simply be a good way of getting us to part with our e-mail, name and address! Perhaps I'll know I've been 'had' if I start getting deluged with vegan mailings (e-mail or otherwise).

It's interesting...if it's not legit, what do you think the purpose of the report might have been?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2009 05:07PM by debbietook.

so what has happened with her hearing? It's July 15...has she gotten her child back?

They did the same thing to me as they did to this woman. Except they did it to me for months. They forcibly INJECTED it into me!!!

These antipsychotic drugs cause permanent brain atrophy and brain damage!!!!

IT'S ALL A MONEY-MAKING RACQUET AND THEY PERMANENTLY BRAIN-DAMAGE THE VICTIMS!!!!

Dr. Peter Breggin calls it a "psychopharmaceutical complex". People think that "Oh the psychiatrists are Doctors and THEY would NEVER push drugs on someone, they're not drug peddling, drug forcing bastards... he didn't want to take his medication....". I learned very very sordid things about the world and medicine when I was in that place.

The Judge told me "The psychiatrist has a duty to act responsibly". A lady at my so-called "tribunal" (they have sham tribunals every few weeks to pretend that they're keeping the patients' human rights in order) said the drugs wouldn't be approved if they caused damage.

WAKE UP!!!! THE FDA IS RUN *BY* THE DRUG COMPANIES!!!!!!

THE PSYCHIATRSITS ARE MADE PRESCRIBE WHAT'S BY THE DRUG COMPANIES!!!!

Brain damaged by my own government, by my own taxpayers' money for no reason!!!! About 5% at LEAST of my consciousness and brain is DISABLED and DEAD, there's no opinion!!! The volume has shrunk, the brain cells are gone... look up monkey experiments if you don't believe me.

They're going too far now. I will be plotting against these people until the day I die. What they do to old, naive people who trust them and people who don't know any better is unbelievably disgusting. Many of these people shoud be shot. Obviously I wish I had been shot and survived rather than living on permanently brain-damaged with a gruelling form of Parkinsons and Alzheimers disease to look forward to when I get older after having my nigrostratial pathways torn up along with everything else.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2009 06:30PM by SuperInfinity.

Don't know, luvyuu. I just heard about it via Alison posting on the Raw Food UK forum. If I hear anything more, I'll post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2009 07:34PM by debbietook.

Debbie,

I was wondering the same thing, I mean, what motivation could there be for presenting such a horrific story if it isn't true. She isn't overtly asking for money, or is she? To discredit the French Diatetic Association? The French courts? To make vegans look unhinged? I don't know. But it's all very odd, like in the interview: her waxing indignant on the repressed nature of life in Nice, and then the outrageousness of the actions of the psychopharmaceutical industrial complex. Fair enough, but oughtn't this have read more like, I don't know, a proper piece of reportage, with the mother merely explaining the basics of their lifestyle and diet and then the particulars of the court's case against her? The part about how she waltzes out of the asylum and immediately bumps into the presiding judge in her case on the street, and he promptly slinks off to notify the authorities that she is free had me thinking, "what is this, 'The Bourne Identity'?" I suppose it's possible, alas I don't read French and so cannot check the French news reports, but it just sounds so implausible.

P.S. You aren't gullible, you're kind. And I hope I'm wrong about this.

The part that sends up red flags to me is where the poor Mom brought the "not a real pistol, but not a toy either" with her when she found out where her baby was.

I'm sure that having a child taken - especially under those circumstances - must be overwhelmingly stressful, and desperate times call for desperate measures. But this incident has not helped her get her child back. We have to wonder, was this an isolated incident brought on solely by stress?

It seems very possible that there's something else going on here. Yes, if the story is true, then the judge acted in a completely ignorant and unjust manner. But the Mom may have other issues besides her Vegan lifestyle, and so far, the story comes only from the Mom.

I'd be interested too in finding out what happens today with the case.

Thanks Debbie for this story, and also for bringing up the American Dietetic Association's (ADA's) position on vegetarian/vegan diets.

A little beside the point, but ADA doesn't exactly endorse raw veganism. Seems their biggest objection is that a person on an all raw diet is exposed to safety risks from eating too many sprouts and other potentially contaminated raw foods (since cooking kills germs).

Still, I think it's very encouraging that the ADA doesn't oppose a raw food diet on the basis of inadequate nutrition! I mean, really, I think that's huge! And we probably owe that to the many vegans and vegetarian dietitians who are now members of the ADA and to all ADA members who are willing to have an open mind. From the position paper: "The raw foods diet encourages you to eat fresh fruits and vegetables, which is a definite nutritional plus."

[eatright.org]

'As with any diet, when evaluating the “raw foods” approach, ask questions. If you think “This sounds too good to be true,” it probably is.'

I don't really know why but this bit actually made me laugh. The results are better than most people could ever imagine. It's not even really a "diet", you're not "restricting" anything. Those things they make are not real foods!!!

The burden of proof to show a diet is safe should be on the SAD diets, the promoters of the processed foods etc. Looking at the results of being on SAD diets...... I don't think so!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2009 10:22PM by SuperInfinity.

There have been similar stories right here in the USA. Some were extremists, and others were legitimate, loving, stable, HEALTHY families. As a nurse, I am daily sickened by the "Medical Standards" of today, and I am constantly amazed at how they have to repeatedly CHANGE the standards to keep up with the declining health of our population. So, if modern medicine cannot HEAL the people, they simply change the "standards" to make a horrible health condition "NORMAL." I see this all the time especially with infants and young children. Healthy vegan children develop so differently from children fed the SAD, and the medical professionals "panic" when they see such a child but, in actuality, the VEGAN child is the HEALTHY NORMAL child!! Drives me nuts.

The government steps in when a family or a child is not living according to "normal American standards," and will even often retrieve the children from the home. It's a horrible thing and one that will be happening more and more frequently in the future, in EVERY country.

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

SuperInfinity, you have a good point!

And how much more of a safety risk are raw fruits and vegetables on an all raw food diet, compared with raw fruits and vegetables on a cooked food diet?

Dietitians normally encourage people to eat more raw fruits and salads. How much raw food is safe to eat then? Is it just that the more raw food a person eats, the greater the safety risk of being exposed to contaminated food? On the other hand, the less raw food a person eats, the greater the risk of cancer and diabetes.

Seems like the better advice would just be to make sure and wash your hands and your food before you eat it. That could apply to everybody!

I wonder what the incidence of food poisoning is for raw fooders compared to the general population who might eat anything, including fast food contaminated meats. Anybody have any numbers on that?

So sorry Superinfinity about your experience with the "medication". Hopefully, your lifestyle will be healing, and you won't experience those awful side effects!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2009 10:40PM by suncloud.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> So sorry Superinfinity about your experience with
> the "medication". Hopefully, your lifestyle will
> be healing, and you won't experience those awful
> side effects!

Thanks, I actually feel good now. I'm still usually in a good mood, partly due to raw food. However what they did to me still makes me very angry sometimes. What they gave to me had a very good chance of making the rest of my life extremely miserable and definitely destroyed part of my brain and permanent volume reduction of it. It's straightforward analysis.

I'll do my best to raise my own money and take an action against them myself, if I can just get in front of 12 countrymen I'm sure I have a good chance of obtaining big compensation and more importantly severing the drug companies and their despicable practices as much as possible. But time is ticking on... obviously my government denied me legal aid themselves as they always do for a case against another part of government.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2009 10:48PM by SuperInfinity.

wow food poisioning .. i got it a few times pre-raw .. never since

and Superinfinity its cool you are able to find something to help you get beyond that horrible crap you were forced to endure !

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

I really hadn't thought that the story was made up... I sort of agree that she doesn't sound very stable as an individual... though of course how could you be in that situation... we still don't get all the details... i sort of felt that there was quite a bit of the story missing...

but i do believe that this will happen and has happened... and in France it doesn't surprise me as they aren't very supportive of the veg lifestyle...i was told often that i needed to eat meat and all my problems would go away... and i had a man tell me vegetables are not good for you... i laughed in dismay... and i was a lacto ovo veg... not even vegan... and now that i'm raw... i'm not in France... but people really have a hard time with it...it frustrates me sometmes... because i've heard often people condemning the "vegan Nazi"... but they have no problem telling me i should eat meat... how is that different???

Why do people have such a problem with it?... Why do they care what i choose to eat... or to feed my family with...they don't have to eat it if they don't want... why is it anybody's business at all really???

it's sort of a scary time to live aye? We walk a fine line between right and wrong... and if what's right for you isn't right by government standards then forget about it... should we hide how we live or who we are out of fear??? Maybe that's the message the Gov't is trying to send!!! Fear!!!

ok i'm done venting!!!

love laugh and dream

plainlydressed - good point about what's normal v what's healthy.

There's a great article in the latest edition of 'Get Fresh' (published by Fresh Network UK) by Doug Graham on exactly why vegan children may be smaller than the norm, and why that's good news!

Could be good ammo (and, at least, reassuring) for parents of vegan children.

suncloud - as far as I can remember from the statement, the ADA doesn't exactly put a rubber stamp on any form of veganism. But at least it officially 'approves' of vegetarianism (ie including dairy) for infants, which is a step in the right direction.

Many thanks to everyone else who has contributed to the thread to date - whether the report was authentic or not, some very interesting comments here.

Note, as this is on 'vegan' rather than 'raw', thread may be moved. I asked Bryan if he could keep it on main board for a day because of the urgency re the 'hearing' (:-)), but shall understand if it goes walkies soon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2009 05:11AM by debbietook.

Debbietook,

The ADA has recently updated their position on veganism. I think it's very encouraging - a giant step forward! Here's an article about it from physorg.com (I put the vegan part in bold):

ADA releases updated position paper on vegetarian diets

July 1st, 2009 The American Dietetic Association has released an updated position paper on vegetarian diets that concludes such diets, if well-planned, are healthful and nutritious for adults, infants, children and adolescents and can help prevent and treat chronic diseases including heart disease, cancer, obesity and diabetes.

ADA's position, published in the July issue of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association, represents the Association's official stance on vegetarian diets:

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life-cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence and for athletes."

ADA's position and accompanying paper were written by Winston Craig, PhD, MPH, RD, professor and chair of the department of nutrition and wellness at Andrews University; and Reed Mangels, PhD, RD, nutrition advisor at the Vegetarian Resource Group, Baltimore, Md.

The revised position paper incorporates new topics and additional information on key nutrients for vegetarians, vegetarian diets in the life cycle and the use of vegetarian diets in prevention and treatment of chronic diseases. "Vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle," according to ADA's position. "There are many reasons for the rising interest in vegetarian diets. The number of vegetarians in the United States is expected to increase over the next decade."

Vegetarian diets are often associated with health advantages including lower blood cholesterol levels, lower risk of heart disease, lower blood pressure levels and lower risk of hypertension and type 2 diabetes, according to ADA's position. "Vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Vegetarian diets tend to be lower in saturated fat and cholesterol and have higher levels of dietary fiber, magnesium and potassium, vitamins C and E, folate, carotenoids, flavonoids and other phytochemicals. These nutritional differences may explain some of the health advantages of those following a varied, balanced vegetarian diet."

The position paper draws on results from ADA's evidence analysis process and information from the ADA Evidence Analysis Library to show vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. Additionally, an evidence-based review showed a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease.

A section in ADA's paper on vegetarian diets and cancer has been significantly expanded to provide details on cancer-protective factors in vegetarian diets. An expanded section on osteoporosis includes roles of fruits, vegetables, soy products, protein, calcium, vitamins D and K and potassium in bone health. "Registered dietitians can provide information about key nutrients, modify vegetarian diets to meet the needs of those with dietary restrictions due to disease or allergies and supply guidelines to meet needs of clients in different areas of the life cycle," the authors said.

More information: [www.eatright.org]

Source: American Dietetic Association



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2009 06:50AM by suncloud.

Thanks, suncloud - in fact, that's the statement I sent 'to the judge' (well, I hope so!) :-)

I just found it a little ambiguous. It uses the word 'vegan' once, but in all other cases says 'vegetarian' and only says 'vegetarian' in the sentence that includes the word 'infants'. It may be different in the US, but here 'vegetarian' usually means including eggs and dairy.

Nevertheless, I do hope anyone reading the statement will take it to mean both. I used it, because, whatever the case, it is clearly saying that flesh foods are not essential for anyone of ANY age.

Suncloud,

Thanks for posting that. The ADA is really sticking their necks out on this one because I doubt the animal farming lobbyists are taking this lying down.

Tamukha, yes, it's encouraging that some members of the ADA, like Virginia Messina, RD (who freely calls herself a "vegan activist" are very vocal in their objection to factory farming - although Virginia still has her doubts about raw foods. That's OK though.

Kudos to the ADA for how far they have come, and much thanks to all their vegetarian and vegan members!

Today I received notice from the ADA that my own application for membership has been "conditionally accepted", since I just recently enrolled in a dietetics program. (YAY!)

The ADA has published "A new food guide for North American vegetarians":

[www.eatright.org]

One of the stated goals of the new food guide is: To increase awareness about the availability of calcium from nondairy foods..."

and the food guide includes the following statement:

"Survey data suggest that vegans account for as much as 40% of the actual vegetarian population"

In fact, the contact person for the ADA's "new food guide for vegetarians" is Virginia Messina, the "vegan activist" mentioned above.

The times, they are achangin'........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2009 07:55PM by suncloud.

suncloud,

Wow! It sounds like the ADA has been veritably infiltrated by subversives! And you make one more . . . congratulations on being accepted!

Thanks so much Tamukha!

Suncloud,

Great to hear of your upcoming acceptance into the ADA. Great job and congratulations!

Thank you pakd.

I'm just at the starting point as a student. Definitely a long way to go!

very cool suncloud if ya ever need help studying for stuff ala remotely let me know i will pop quiz ya

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Suncloud, very cheering to see that statement on non-dairy.

And best wishes to you with your career - very good news!