Is it just me, or is David Wolfe totally full of it? Every time I hear him speak or read something he's written, I find myself rolling my eyes or even laughing how how ridiculous he is. I heard an interview he did with that Supercharge Me lady (her name is escaping me right now) and he said something about how all of our foods are treated with "pesticides, herbicides, larvacides, SUICIDES..." WTF is he talking about? It just seems like he says things like that to stir people up. It also doesn't really seem like he is trying to educate people about healthy foods--more that he is trying to make money off of people by coming up with gimmicks and ploys.

Thoughts?

I think its best to take what you can that resonates with you and leave the rest

High profile people need to put on a show, whip up the frenzy so to speak

He dabbles in alot of supplements but hey , thats what he beleives in thats great If its not for me or you thats ok too

He has started a great fruit tree planting foundation tho which i hope really takes off )

other then that i enjoy listening to him from time to time although alot of things he dabbles in , isnt for me personally

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

I have no patience for his sort. I ignore him whenever possible.
He's like the rock star of raw. And all those "catch phrases", that's how George Bush made it work for himself too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2009 08:10PM by coco.

I once saw a candid video of David Wolfe taken with a home recorder by an attendant at a small raw foods seminar at some community center out west. He looked to be done with his talk, and was just sitting on the edge of a dais, all alone and tired looking, waiting for the raw foods luncheon to begin while everyone else was milling around and chatting. He looked so, well, forlorn, that I just felt sorry for him and thought, maybe the constant showboating might be an unavoidable means to an end--the popularizing of raw foodism and of his tree planting foundation, both worthy goals.

About a year ago now, I was watching a video of him on YouTube, in which he was giving a talk at some corporate HQ. He was doing his thing, you know, bounding across the stage in his serape with his unruly 'fro bouncing up and down. I was getting annoyed at the over-the-top zeal. And then I glanced down at the comments. A couple of posts down the page, someone had written something like, I appreciate what he's trying to say, it's really thought provoking, and I think I get it . . . but you know, he reminds so much of Tingle Tangle Sideshow Bob . . .

Since then, every time I think David Wolfe is getting too obnoxious, I remember that YouTube comment, and I just smile. Everybody's got they something.

I agree with you. He is so pumped-up and full of hype. Every time I watch his demonstrations, he fills his smoothies or juices or foods with so many OTHER things that are so NOT ALIVE, that it makes me wonder. He adds so many supplements to his products that I think he should just go back to the SAD and be alot happier. *LOL* =)

I just watched Montel Williams' infomercial for the HealthMaster and at least HE even has enough sense to push WHOLE LIVE RAW foods in their orignal, natural state without any added ingredients. As cheesy as his infomercial or product might be, at least he's on-target with the WHOLE RAW FOOD position.

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

when i briefly worked for NFL they made juice/smoothie every day and the only 'super foods' they used were jalepenos and sometimes a bit of green food powder. david hardly ate anything at all, i think he has that slow metabolism that allows for that. i highly doubt he even uses most of the stuff he sells.

I saw him a few years ago and chatted just a bit at rawspiritfest. The whole supplement and superfood thing is not my bag....of course. But I don't fault the guy at all for trying to raise awareness in his way. I don't even mind a bit of grandstanding or theatrics.....I just don't like anyone getting the idea that you HAVE to eat organic foods or HAVE to take supplements....or HAVE to have some kind of secret superfoods or HAVE to have some kind of obscure cleansing ritual....when it is, in fact, my belief that 99% of folks would be 99% better with a high or all fresh plant food diet.....with no especially high ticket price! Heh...heh.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

I still think 'Sunfood Nutrition' is a great, and inspiring book and David deserves much credit for bringing people to raw.

I fell out of love with him when I received an e-mail that said that the raw food diet CANNOT (not 'may not', but CANNOT) meet our mineral needs and to contact him to find out where to get what's missing.

Ah yes, the marketing hype - but don't they all do that?

debbietook Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still think 'Sunfood Nutrition' is a great, and
> inspiring book and David deserves much credit for
> bringing people to raw.
>
> I fell out of love with him when I received an
> e-mail that said that the raw food diet CANNOT
> (not 'may not', but CANNOT) meet our mineral needs
> and to contact him to find out where to get what's
> missing.

there are a lot of other people/companies to criticize and criticize in depth

let's see

1. some of our political leaders that steal from us ( in the form of lies and taxes).

I don't see David gleaning funds from our taxes. People pay of their own volition to hear him talk or read his books.

2. those who lie about our state of affairs and hundreds end up dying innocently due to someone else's political agenda.

I didn't hear of any bloodshed take place at any of DW's events.

3. CEO's of McDonald's, Wendy's, Jack in the Box, and other cardiovascular challenging outlets.

I doubt taking some mineral or vitamin supplements will be as bad as eating chili cheese fries, 30 day grease doused waffles, etc.

4. The list could go on and on and on.

Don't waste my time talking about how bad DW is. The bottom line is that he has done an astounding amount to raise awareness concerning raw veganism and has done a lot for environmental causes. If you can say you have done the same then you will probably be humbled by the effort it takes to do that on a massive scale and be silenced.

I can't do what he does. I wouldn't even try.

I don't care whether or not his style agrees with me or whether or not he sells supplements. I have no idea why people complain about a guy who does far more good than bad.

If you don't like supplements, don't take them.

If you don't like his talks, don't go to see him.

If you don't like his books, don't pay to purchase them.

But for crying out loud, stop complaining about him.

You DO have a choice, you know?

There really are FAR worse people to complain about.

If you want perfection, go seek that within yourself. Stop demanding that others be what you aren't.

I agree with you la_veronique. I was surprised when I read the above thread, because when I first saw a you-tube video of David Wolfe, I thought "wow extreme, but man does he make sense". I was impressed with him, do I agree with everything he says? No, but many of the raw food gurus have a lasting impression on me or perhaps I wouldn't even be here right now.

What really makes me sick is when I see commercials for the local fast food chains advertising toys to hook our children, schools that have coca -cola vending machines in them and local governors (cincinnati, Ohio) that pursue casino gambling and cut programs for libraries and early childhood education (lost my teaching job with that one, but I'm not bitter!,more time to pursue a raw lifestyle). David Wolfe has taught me alot, even if I don't agree with all of his ideas.

Sorry felt the need to rant, I feel better now
Thank you

slam dunk LaV ! you said it the best !

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

la_veronique:
I never said he's the worst person in the world or the only one worth criticizing. Sure, Hitler was worse than David Wolfe. George W Bush is worse than David Wolfe. Many, many others are worse than David Wolfe, but I don't see a raw food bulletin board as an appropriate platform for such discussion.
My point isn't that his products are junk (I honestly don't know enough about what he sells to make that assessment). My point is that, while he may have some good ideas, I find it disgusting that he tries to commercialize the whole movement by fear-mongering and outrageous statements.
Read his first book (Nature's First Law). Why is it out of print and never discussed? Because it's the biggest load of crap ever published in the movement. While some of the points presented in the book are valid, those points are totally destroyed by bizarre, propagandist statements: ""The reason scientists do experiments on animals is because cooked-food addiction has severely clouded everyone's mind. They cannot think for themselves. They cannot see reality, so they need their proof demonstrated to them by torturing defenseless creatures" (p. 206). This is actually printed in the Appendix, and presented as though it were a factual reference.
Raw food is a lifestyle, and an important one at that. But DW seems like he's trying to make it into a religious cult where he's the leader (read debbietook's post above for an example of this). I, for one, don't want to drink his Kool-Aid. And I feel sorry for people who waste their money on it, too.
Furthermore, this is not a post about how I'm forced to listen to his bull all the time. I realize that hearing what he has to say is a choice. But I completely disagree with the whole "If you don't like him, don't listen to him, and don't waste my time talking about how bad he is." I believe in the open discussion of ideas, even if they differ from my own. And I fail to see how I've wasted your time by discussing my opinions. It was your choice to read this thread. Just as it was my choice to read DW's book and watch his videos.
I believe we are all welcome to have friendly disagreements. But let's keep them friendly!

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> there are a lot of other people/companies to
> criticize and criticize in depth
> ......
> If you want perfection, go seek that within
> yourself. Stop demanding that others be what you
> aren't.

That's kind of a straw man argument isn't it? I didn't hear the op demading perfection, just stating a preference. God forbid when we reach the state where some can't express discontent without undue admonishment. On this forum or any other. Respond to the criticism, but don't deny his right to criticize. The only requirement for criticism is validity, logic and soundness. If you want to critique the critique, it should be a seperate post, not a rant discouraging independent thought.

Paul

Wait wait wait !!! Lemme' check quick to see if someone is holding a gun to my head to force me to read this thread?? BRB





Nope. Not there. Guess we all still have the freedom of choice to read, not read, complain, not complain, agree, not agree. That's what makes this such a grand and wonderful country.

Guess what? I STILL can't stand David Wolfe ! *grin* =)

Guess what else? I also can't stand Matt Monarch (he drives my husband nuts too), but I occasionally put up with it for the information and because I like Angela. =) But don't panic. I'll save the "Matt bashing" for his own special thread. This one is JUST for DW. =)

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

pborst

<<If you want to critique the critique, it should be a seperate post, not a rant discouraging independent thought.>>

Oh really? In what way is poksadot's post an "independent"ly thought out post?

In case you haven't noticed, zillions of other people are crying about how baaaaaad DW is because he sells supplements.

I don't see any of these people trying to improve raw education. Easy to complain. Hard to do.

You say that I have a "straw man" argument and dismiss it as being valid.

So, you want to discuss the issues? Okay.. let's discuss the issues.

Issue #1 : DW is a scam because he sells supplements.

Interesting... Next time you think that you are above and beyond needing anything beyond WHOLE RAW foods... you might want to get a soil sample of where your foods are grown and take it to the laboratory. You may be surprised with how MANY toxins, carcinogens, pharmaceuticals etc. are found in your soil. Easier than that, just ask your local friendly ORGANIC farmer and see if they use reverse osmotic filters to water all their soil etc. If not, check out the water and see what is in THAT. It should be no secret that there are literally HUNDREDS of toxins, chemicals, pharmaceuticals etc in the water and thus it goes into the soil and thus it goes into your... you guessed it... beautiful innocent WHOLE RAW foods.

Maybe a supplement or two will detoxify and remedy this situation. Maybe it won't do anything at all. To say that supplements are a scam however is the same as saying that our whole RAW foods are NOT a scam. People who are against supplements feel that they can get everything from our foods. Our foods ARE a scam and a tremendous travesty of what is PURE when they are grown on toxic soil.
What does this DO to people? Hmmm..... it may cause cancer. It may cause thyroid problems. It may aggravate a weakened heart. It may do a plethora of things.

Will supplements remedy this situation?
I doubt it.

Will it help SOME people who may need it?

Sure, maybe.

Is DW deluded and/or evil or a total scam to think that maybe.. just.. maybe some people might benefit from taking something MORE than their standard fare of fruits and veggies that comes from questionable and most likely DEPLETED soils?

Hmm... I wonder.

Issue #2 DW is just a money mongering guy who just cares about lying to people and duping them into buying his supplements and books.

Hmmm... that is interesting since he has done a TON for the environment including having a zillion fruit trees planted in places and areas that NEED it. Some people rely on these trees as a food source.

A lot of people have listened to this guy and converted from a junk-a - tarian diet to a raw vegan diet which then of course sets in motion an entire chain reaction from environmental responses etc.and all of that is GOOD as far as I am concerned.


Issue #3 DW is too spirited and doesn't know what he is talking about.

Response: Maybe if people actually LISTENED to what he says or writes WITHIN their context instead of just nit picking on the things that aren't 100% syncopatic with you, you just might appreciate that he is actually trying to do in a holistic context which is to achieve something good and worthwhile.


Do I agree with everything DW says?

Answer: No.

Have I bought any of his supplements or have had a dire desire to do so?

Answer: No

Do I worship DW and think that he is a raw guru god treading this planet?

Answer: No

Do I appreciate the depth of what he has done for the world and this planet just by continuing to spread the news of what raw veganism is about?

Answer: Absolutely

Oh yeah, Dr. Doug Graham, well known raw foodist and proponent of the 20/20/80 diet who DOES propound WHOLE RAW foods and ZERO supplements has ALSO been bashed a million times on these threads.

What was his crime?

I have NO idea.

What were so many of the comments and criticisms levied against Dr.Graham?

Despite the fact that he is incredibly in shape and healthy, so many people on these forums were so incredibly dismayed that he didn't look like a 20 year old ( he is a few decades older).

booo hooo....

" No good deeds go unpunished."

Perhaps I ought to be like one of those Zen monks.. and just calmly observe people and not get into the heat and husk of things...

or have an opinion

or whatever.

sure, polksadot is entitled to his/her opinion

sure... everyone who hates Dr. Graham or Gabriel Cousens or DW is entitled to THEIR opinion

I remember when the wife of a famous raw vegan educator died ( at age 58), there were SOOOOO many people CRITICIZING the fact that she died even though she was a raw vegan.

WOW...

whatever happened to "Rest in Peace"?

Apparently all cooked educators are allowed to rest in peace but raw vegan educators must be villified even during their deaths. They are apparently not even allowed to die.

I have yet to see or observe or read about a raw vegan educator who does quite a lot of good who has NOT been scrutinized and torn apart endlessly.

I have nothing against free speech.

go right ahead.. I am exercising free speech as well

but SOMEONE might as well point out all the GOOD that these people do

and it MIGHT as well be ME!!!

and if they make a lot of money

i say GOOOOOOOD!!!

in case you haven't noticed, we ALL need to make a living somehow

i wish them ASTOUNDING success

because quite frankly,

they DESERVE it

and if someone is paying to hear them, listen to them or read what they write

it is probably because they NEED to

otherwise why would they part with their hard earned money?

not everyone is walking around with half a brain

some people actually BENEFIT from these people

Does this mean that I go to all their events?

No, I haven't been to a single raw event or lecture

except for one.

People who criticize my post mistake my stance by falsely believing that I think

1. supplements are the next messiah
2. discussions are not good because they might go against my own opinion
3. raw vegan educators ought to be bowed down to and every word that streams from their lips must be gobbled up and believed

This is NOT what I believe.

What I DO believe is that they do FAAAAARRRRRR more GOOD than harm and for this, they ought to be given SOME credit instead of being constantly and ceaselessly defamed.

I think those that post criticisms on the raw educators are obviously newbies who feel angry that they have been 'deluded' on some level.

If you have been in the raw scene for a while, you learn to take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt and you don't waste your time thinking whether or not this person or that person is a "scam".

You TEST it out for yourself.

You WALK the talk for yourself.

You CONSTANTLY strive to refine your OWN understanding.

And you THANK anyone for bringing much needed raw vegan education to the public.

Someone once said that

Those who have no enemies probably lack integrity.

"If you want perfection, go seek that within yourself. Stop demanding that others be what you aren't."

Let's stop with the red herrings following a strawman argument. I didn't defend or attack David Wolfe. I objected to you imputing something to the original poster didn't say. Or show me where he asked for perfection. I may or may not agree with his point. But let's let the argument set with what he asserts. I objected to your original rant on all the people we could blame as a distraction for his original point. And I stand by it. And I especially object to your overstatement regarding his claim. I could care less about what you do or don't think about David Wolfe. Just don't brow beat someone who has an objection. And don't mistate their arguments. That would be a good start.

Paul


la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst
>
> <>
>
> Oh really? In what way is poksadot's post an
> "independent"ly thought out post?
>
> In case you haven't noticed, zillions of other
> people are crying about how baaaaaad DW is because
> he sells supplements.
>
> I don't see any of these people trying to improve
> raw education. Easy to complain. Hard to do.
>
> You say that I have a "straw man" argument and
> dismiss it as being valid.
>
> So, you want to discuss the issues? Okay.. let's
> discuss the issues.
>
> Issue #1 : DW is a scam because he sells
> supplements.
>
> Interesting... Next time you think that you are
> above and beyond needing anything beyond WHOLE RAW
> foods... you might want to get a soil sample of
> where your foods are grown and take it to the
> laboratory. You may be surprised with how MANY
> toxins, carcinogens, pharmaceuticals etc. are
> found in your soil. Easier than that, just ask
> your local friendly ORGANIC farmer and see if they
> use reverse osmotic filters to water all their
> soil etc. If not, check out the water and see what
> is in THAT. It should be no secret that there are
> literally HUNDREDS of toxins, chemicals,
> pharmaceuticals etc in the water and thus it goes
> into the soil and thus it goes into your... you
> guessed it... beautiful innocent WHOLE RAW foods.
>
> Maybe a supplement or two will detoxify and remedy
> this situation. Maybe it won't do anything at all.
> To say that supplements are a scam however is the
> same as saying that our whole RAW foods are NOT a
> scam. People who are against supplements feel that
> they can get everything from our foods. Our foods
> ARE a scam and a tremendous travesty of what is
> PURE when they are grown on toxic soil.
> What does this DO to people? Hmmm..... it may
> cause cancer. It may cause thyroid problems. It
> may aggravate a weakened heart. It may do a
> plethora of things.
>
> Will supplements remedy this situation?
> I doubt it.
>
> Will it help SOME people who may need it?
>
> Sure, maybe.
>
> Is DW deluded and/or evil or a total scam to
> think that maybe.. just.. maybe some people might
> benefit from taking something MORE than their
> standard fare of fruits and veggies that comes
> from questionable and most likely DEPLETED soils?
>
> Hmm... I wonder.
>
> Issue #2 DW is just a money mongering guy who just
> cares about lying to people and duping them into
> buying his supplements and books.
>
> Hmmm... that is interesting since he has done a
> TON for the environment including having a zillion
> fruit trees planted in places and areas that NEED
> it. Some people rely on these trees as a food
> source.
>
> A lot of people have listened to this guy and
> converted from a junk-a - tarian diet to a raw
> vegan diet which then of course sets in motion an
> entire chain reaction from environmental responses
> etc.and all of that is GOOD as far as I am
> concerned.
>
>
> Issue #3 DW is too spirited and doesn't know what
> he is talking about.
>
> Response: Maybe if people actually LISTENED to
> what he says or writes WITHIN their context
> instead of just nit picking on the things that
> aren't 100% syncopatic with you, you just might
> appreciate that he is actually trying to do in a
> holistic context which is to achieve something
> good and worthwhile.
>
>
> Do I agree with everything DW says?
>
> Answer: No.
>
> Have I bought any of his supplements or have had a
> dire desire to do so?
>
> Answer: No
>
> Do I worship DW and think that he is a raw guru
> god treading this planet?
>
> Answer: No
>
> Do I appreciate the depth of what he has done for
> the world and this planet just by continuing to
> spread the news of what raw veganism is about?
>
> Answer: Absolutely



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2009 01:45AM by pborst.

I'm so exhausted now. Hold that thought. Need to run for an energy drink to keep my mind sharp for all this pedanticism. =)

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

I got exhausted just reading through half of the posts. What is the point of having a thread like this? I don't really see where it is beneficial to any of us. Maybe time would be better spent on lifting each other up, sharing raw food ideas & the like...after all, we're all in this thing together - why pull in different directions?



plainlydressed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm so exhausted now. Hold that thought. Need to
> run for an energy drink to keep my mind sharp for
> all this pedanticism. =)

group hug?

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

< PD comes running from behind the bushes, carefully looking both ways, to jump head-long into the group hug.>

In the interest of freedom of speech and the acceptance of all, I want to bring the thread back full circle to polskadot's sincere, logical comment / question. We all answered. No need to attack. Let us never discourage an individual's spirit or ability for free expression on this forum or any other. Like someone else said on a recent thread (I'm sorry that I forgot who you are off-hand) - Take what we can learn and discard whatever does not pertain to us personally, and never be afraid to speak the truth that is in your heart, regardless of the opinions of others.

<Ok, back to hugging> =)

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

A group hug? That means I will have to change my user name to Huggy Buns. I am not sure I can do that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2009 03:21AM by Mean One.

Thanks Veronique!!
I agree that DW does a lot more good than harm in this world. Many are brought to raw veganism by his antics and then find their own path from their.
Like me! DW is how I found raw veganism.
It has been a journey of tweaking it for me from there but we all have to start somewhere.
People want to find a guru that they can trust and believe every word that comes out of their mouthes but no one exits because each person's body is slightly different.

I just want to reiterate AGAIN that I never argued anything about DW's products or his claims about them (again, I know little about his products). My only point is that his methods are a real turn-off to me. I greatly dislike the way that he tries to instill fear on his listeners/readers by making outrageous statements (see my previous posts in this thread for examples).
I NEVER intended to create such a heated argument. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my original post. I was hoping for responses like "Yeah, he bugs me too" or "No, I think he's great!" I was certainly not expecting to be vilified for my opinion, or to make people so angry.
Honestly, the main reason I brought all this up in the first place is because I really think he's kind of a quack, and I've tried to do some searching on the internet to see if I'm alone on this. I couldn't find much, so I asked here.
It really seems like the people I angered most in this thread are the ones who also misunderstood me the most. Perhaps that's my fault. I don't know.

I guess let's just consider this matter over. I'm in for a group hug.

I don't personally like all the hokey bizarre statements. Actually Sunfood Success system was the first raw book I bought after having thought about raw foodism for years without knowing there actually was "raw foodism". It was all the poetry and things of that sort that made me put the book on the shelf and not get into raw foods. That may sound kind of dumb but it is true. Two years later, while reading Nutritional Healing I noticed that almost every ailment was aided by the suggested "at least 75%" of the diet being raw fruits and vegetables that I started looking into it all again.

I do believe that DW has brought a lot of attention to Raw Foods but I do believe that not all of it is positive. Is he the only one who has done, what I consider, damage to the whole movement ... no. People out there drinking their own pee, and the many others who have turned their efforts to selling more vitamins and super foods than just really promoting natural foods do damage as well.

Some people should take supplements to their diet, especially if they live in colder climates or have poor soil ... their choice from who or where they purchase them. I don't spend my money on his. I don't think cacao to be a great thing to peddle and avoid most of the charlatans who expound upon it's awesome benefits. I think it is poison.

polskadot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was hoping for responses like "Yeah, he
> bugs me too" or "No, I think he's great!"

I love the way you think. Plain, simple, matter-of-fact, no guessing or exhausting dissertations. Glad I was able to comply with your request - "Yep, he bugs me too." =)

Don't sweat it and keep on being a plain, straight-forward hip-shooter and you'll be just fine. =)

My motto - "Eat the watermelon and spit out the seeds." =)

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

polskadot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...My point is that, while he
> may have some good ideas, I find it disgusting
> that he tries to commercialize the whole movement
> by fear-mongering and outrageous statements.
> Read his first book (Nature's First Law). Why is
> it out of print and never discussed? Because it's
> the biggest load of crap ever published in the
> movement. While some of the points presented in
> the book are valid, those points are totally
> destroyed by bizarre, propagandist statements:
> ""The reason scientists do experiments on animals
> is because cooked-food addiction has severely
> clouded everyone's mind. They cannot think for
> themselves. They cannot see reality, so they need
> their proof demonstrated to them by torturing
> defenseless creatures" (p. 206). This is actually
> printed in the Appendix, and presented as though
> it were a factual reference.
> ...

polskadot,
This excerpt from Nature's First Law seems insightful to me. Does it say who wrote it? Animal experiments are often designed to try to prove a point, the value of such proof limited which is acknowledged by the experimenters themselves. Yet they persist despite the suffering of the animals which are routinely euthanized at the conclusion of the study. The sarcasm at the end of the quote is understandable, in my opinion.

If David Wolfe isn't what you are looking for, just let it go. Why bother typing up his words and analyzing them?

I'm just looking for affordable, fresh, organic fruits and vegetables.

"It's the job of little men to bring Big Men down".....someone said that.
Lay off David Wolfe....he is who he is, as you are who you are. I still think it's amusing when DW said if any Ants get into his Honey, he doesn't bother to fish them out, but just eats them too.....WY