I've seen many recipes for vegan "whipped cream" but none of them are anything like full-dairy whipped cream. Will a thick nut milk form peaks when it is whipped? Has anyone had success replicating not only the taste, but more importantly the consistency of whipped cream?

I've heard that coconut cream will form peaks, but as this is hard for me to come by, I'm hoping it is possible with nut milks/creams also.

I think you need coconut oil for that.....or cocoa butter. But not positive.

I've heard that with a high-speed blender (vitamix) it's much easier to get a texture like whipped cream. good luck!

Cream gets thick because the lipids disperse and collect air. So, you would need to whip something relatively fatty but also wet--cream is mostly water--at high speeds . . . I have made a raw "cheesecake" filling with half soaked cashews and half soaked peeled almonds whipped until thick with raw agave and lemon juice and water. If you omitted the lemon juice, and added more water, and maybe some young coconut flesh, and did it at a very high speed, it would probably approximate whipped cream. The problem with a nut base is that nuts are very fatty but also dense, unlike cream, which has no fiber. I don't know how much water you could add and still maintain an emulsion . . . sorry, that's the trained cook in me musing. : )

Not sure if you are willing to do so, but maybe you could add a touch of raw milk and see if you can get the texture and taste you want. Just an idea.

.. also a coconut cream alternative might be canned coconut milk - which is rich and could be boiled down further if need be - not ideal but the taste is usually good

As a chef I can tell you that trying to approximate certain foods like whipped cream in a fully 100% raw version can be a very, very hard struggle..

In my opinion, it is a fools errand to spend the inordinate amounts of time and money in trying to accomplish tasks like these..

I have a lot of admiration for the cooks / chefs that have elevated raw food preparation to the high standards that are to be found in so many raw restaurants..

Recently I have chosen to no longer walk that path..

When I first started on my raw journey I spent untold hours trying to duplicate as many of the cooked foods that I liked so much in a raw version..

I no longer do this as I soon realized several important things..

First, I was seldom satisfied with the taste and texture of these imitation foods..

When I was satisfied with the taste and texture of a raw version of a cooked food, the fat content, far more often than not, was as high, or higher, than its cooked counterpart making it unhealthy from a fat percentage perspective..

Second, I realized that I was not allowing myself a fair opportunity to break my addictions to the cooked foods, as I was constantly trying to substitute a raw version for the cooked ones..

I found this psychologically debilitating..

I came to the conclusion that for myself if I wanted to eat a Chicken McNugget that I might as well eat the real thing as opposed to a faux raw version that could not possibly come but so close to truly imitating the cooked food version..

I was not really fooling myself in any way, shape, or for, so I asked myself "Why bother in the first place??"..

Third, was the realization that in order to imitate cooked foods in a raw version, it was necessary in many cases to add spices and condiments to the mixture..In some cases A LOT of spices or condiments..

Many of the spices and condiments were not raw..Raw versions in some cases just were not available, or else available only at a very high cost..In other cases a raw version was just not feasible..

I finally decided that for myself the entire process of creating raw versions of cooked foods, especially foods that were obviously not vegan such as meat and dairy products, went against the entire concept of being a raw vegan..

So, I just stopped making these creations altogether..

Bruce

^Ditto everything what Baltochef said.

I RARELY, rarely uncook at home (unless it takes <5 minutes to make).

When I really need that cheesecake... those nori rolls... those sunflower meat balls... It takes less time and costs the same amount of money for me to **drive into the city** and sit down to have someone else prepare it for me properly, a la raw restaurant.

For the non-chefs here, uncooking is a VERY expensive, hit-or-miss endeavor. I've made some great things... and wasted 4 hours/$50+ on a meal of enzyme-rich YUCK.

The fact that you don't make gourmet raw food (or as you call it, imitation food - haha) doesn't help with the OP's question.

Tamukha,

Does strained nut milk still have enough fiber in it to interfere with the whipping process? I strain my nut milk through a nut milk bag before I use it.

musicbebe,
strained nutmilk should be relatively free of fiber, but I don't know how well it would work for whipped cream without adding some actual solid matter to the mix. I am curious to see how this works, but too lazy to make nut milk AND grind up soaked nuts for a concoction!

Aslo, why haven't we been bumped to "Recipes" yet?!

I understand the frusterations of those who are fed up trying to imitate cooked foods. I am at stage though where I need to do this to succeed, though I also eat simply as much as possible. Fortunately for me, I am a homemaker so I have a lot more time than many in which to spend creating these recipes. I have indeed wasted a good bit of money and time on dishes that did not turn out right, but have recently moved passed the hump of inexperience, and am really beginning to get the hang of things! I was a very good cooked food "chef" ( not professional) before I went raw and so my family was used to excellent-tasting, complete meals. Because of the effort I put into replicating cooked dishes, my husband went raw with me (tentatively at first) and now wants to go a full year of raw. As he saw the advantages in my health and his, he also began to see the time, cost, and energy of making all the replications and was more willing to have simpler meals. My son has also had a similar experience: raw gourmet meals opens his mind to this way of eating.
Our social commitments, which bring us great joy in life, also have us around cooked dishes often. For us, gourmet raw meals keep us happy when we long for the cooked versions. I wish there were a raw food restaraunt near us ( there used to be), so having them do the work for us isn't an option.
So in conclusion, we are all at different stages and different things work for us all

Thank you for the suggestions on how to make a raw vegan whipped cream. Any other suggestions??

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cream gets thick because the lipids disperse and
> collect air. So, you would need to whip something
> relatively fatty but also wet--cream is mostly
> water--at high speeds . . . I have made a raw
> "cheesecake" filling with half soaked cashews and
> half soaked peeled almonds whipped until thick
> with raw agave and lemon juice and water. If you
> omitted the lemon juice, and added more water, and
> maybe some young coconut flesh, and did it at a
> very high speed, it would probably approximate
> whipped cream. The problem with a nut base is
> that nuts are very fatty but also dense, unlike
> cream, which has no fiber. I don't know how much
> water you could add and still maintain an emulsion
> . . . sorry, that's the trained cook in me musing.
> : )

Nice analysis Tamukha!

I just made some raw whipped cream that was fluffy and peaked
using one mature coconut (meat only) run thru my centrifugal juicer
with 1/2 cup of very warm water, yeilding one cup of creamy 'milk',
chilled it in freezer for 10 minutes (with container and mixing
blade) and then whipped.... it holds it's shape well and is
very coconutty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2008 11:30PM by loeve.

Bruce, your post 'resonates' with me!

Utopian Life - I think Bruce's post is relevant, as I had feelings similar to Bruce when seeing the thread title and I think his post could be a comfort to those who have spent a lot of time making 'imitations' of cooked dishes and/or found 9 out of 10 such recipes wanting in various ways....when we make 'raw lasagne', 'raw pizza' etc we are by definition setting up our creations as soft targets, especially when served to cooked-food eaters.

Best wishes to musicbebe, and hope someone can suggest something, but....:-)

Just an update..

The recipe held up overnight in the frig.. that is, it stayed fluffy and peaked!

.... 'raw vegan whipped coconut milk' made from scratch.. got to like the taste
of coconut though (and I do).

hmmm.. maybe a fruit salad or some banana ice cream to go with it

cheers,
loeve

loeve

Congratulations on a successful coconut whipped cream..I meant what I said when I admire the chefs that are willing to think outside of the box in order to accomplish un-cooking tasks such as this..

The philosophical aspects of raw vegans creating raw versions of cooked animal-based foods is one that tends to get glossed over..I believe that it is psychologically harmful long-term to eat realistic-looking raw versions of cooked foods that are based on the flesh of animals, or animal products..IMO, this flys in the face of the entire raw vegan philosophy..

I personally believe that un-cooked versions of animal foods have only two places in the raw vegan world..The first would be for the person transitioning from cooked food to a raw vegan diet..The second would be for the person that is trying to entice cooked food members of his, or her, family into eating a healthier diet..

It is my firm belief that while a raw vegan diet is far healthier than a cooked food diet, there are consequences to consuming a raw vegan diet that consists primarily of elaborate un-cooked versions of animal-based cooked foods..I have studied this subject extensively..To anyone that might choose to doubt my claims I challenge you to take a calculator, pencil, and paper, and to figure out the true fat percentages of your favorite un-cooked raw foods..Especially, those raw foods that directly mimic meat..You will find, as I did, that the AVERAGE fat percentage of these creations is somewhere in the 20-25% range..Most recipes REQUIRE fat percentages in the 30-35% range in order to appeal to the human palate..ESPECIALLY, a palate that is conditioned to eating animal-based cooked foods..Many, many recipes will be in the 40-50% range; FAR more than the average person might choose to believe..Some recipes, such as loeve's coconut milk-based whipped cream recipe will have fat percentages that approach 75%..

Raw un-cooked desserts, something I spent a WHOLE LOT of time creating, are even more unhealthy, IMO..This is due to a very high percentage of sweeteners, as well as fats, to the other ingredients in these recipes..

Without HEAT to caramelize ingredients, and to INTENSIFY flavors, raw un-cooked foods almost always need greater percentages of fats, sweeteners, and other ingredients that contain volatile oils and flavors in order to not taste bland..ESPECIALLY, foods that need to be dehydrated..The oxidation process that occurs while foods are dehydrating often reduces flavor components drastically, dramatically changing how the food tastes when fully dehydrated, as opposed to how it tasted before dehydrating began..

A very large percentage of the recipes that I tried right out of the books that I purchased simply failed..They tasted horrible..Period..Even allowing for lowered expectations these foods just tasted bad..In my first year I estimate that I threw away approximately $2,000.00 worth of ingredients, some of which were quite costly on a dollars per pound basis..

The point of this post is to challenge those people who un-cook this way all the time into thinking about the long-term consequences of this type of raw vegan diet..For short-term transitioning and the occasional indulgence I see no problems with these foods..But, for those that choose to eat this way for long periods of time it is my belief that there will be unintended consequences that will negatively affect one's health..

Bruce

Bruce,

I agree with your argument, except: SAD eaters damage their health by eating rich foods, such as pie with whipped cream, often, rather than thrice a month, say. I would assume the raw foodist would have the sense to not thoughtlessly indulge in raw versions of cooked "treats" at the same rate! Else, why make the troublesome transition to raw at all?

baltochef Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> loeve
>
> Congratulations on a successful coconut whipped
> cream..I meant what I said when I admire the chefs
> that are willing to think outside of the box in
> order to accomplish un-cooking tasks such as
> this..

Thanks, baltochef, after many successful coconut milks/creams
always marveling at the similarity of color, flavor and texture
to true dairy, it was only natural to test the "whipped" idea..
The question was "will it whip?".. and much to my delight my
liquid creamy coconut milk did just that, not matching the
flavor of dairy or the degree of fluffyness of whipped dairy,
but at least holding a "peak".... (BTW it's winter here and
the experiment may not work where temps are above 76F, the
melting point of coconut oil).

> The philosophical aspects of raw vegans creating
> raw versions of cooked animal-based foods is one
> that tends to get glossed over..I believe that it
> is psychologically harmful long-term to eat
> realistic-looking raw versions of cooked foods
> that are based on the flesh of animals, or animal
> products..IMO, this flys in the face of the entire
> raw vegan philosophy..

Musicbebe was explicit in requesting ideas for a raw
vegan whipped cream, and further emphasized "raw" in
the 100% meaning of the word (imo), even though
rawfoodsupport defines a raw foodist as one eating 75%
or more raw.. The philosophical and psychological
aspects are very interesting, and deserve a thread of
their own IMO.

> I personally believe that un-cooked versions of
> animal foods have only two places in the raw vegan
> world..The first would be for the person
> transitioning from cooked food to a raw vegan
> diet..The second would be for the person that is
> trying to entice cooked food members of his, or
> her, family into eating a healthier diet..
>
> It is my firm belief that while a raw vegan diet
> is far healthier than a cooked food diet, there
> are consequences to consuming a raw vegan diet
> that consists primarily of elaborate un-cooked
> versions of animal-based cooked foods..I have
> studied this subject extensively..To anyone that
> might choose to doubt my claims I challenge you to
> take a calculator, pencil, and paper, and to
> figure out the true fat percentages of your
> favorite un-cooked raw foods..Especially, those
> raw foods that directly mimic meat..You will find,
> as I did, that the AVERAGE fat percentage of these
> creations is somewhere in the 20-25% range..Most
> recipes REQUIRE fat percentages in the 30-35%
> range in order to appeal to the human
> palate..ESPECIALLY, a palate that is conditioned
> to eating animal-based cooked foods..Many, many
> recipes will be in the 40-50% range; FAR more than
> the average person might choose to believe..Some
> recipes, such as loeve's coconut milk-based
> whipped cream recipe will have fat percentages
> that approach 75%..
>
> Raw un-cooked desserts, something I spent a WHOLE
> LOT of time creating, are even more unhealthy,
> IMO..This is due to a very high percentage of
> sweeteners, as well as fats, to the other
> ingredients in these recipes..
>
> Without HEAT to caramelize ingredients, and to
> INTENSIFY flavors, raw un-cooked foods almost
> always need greater percentages of fats,
> sweeteners, and other ingredients that contain
> volatile oils and flavors in order to not taste
> bland..ESPECIALLY, foods that need to be
> dehydrated..The oxidation process that occurs
> while foods are dehydrating often reduces flavor
> components drastically, dramatically changing how
> the food tastes when fully dehydrated, as opposed
> to how it tasted before dehydrating began..
>
> A very large percentage of the recipes that I
> tried right out of the books that I purchased
> simply failed..They tasted horrible..Period..Even
> allowing for lowered expectations these foods just
> tasted bad..In my first year I estimate that I
> threw away approximately $2,000.00 worth of
> ingredients, some of which were quite costly on a
> dollars per pound basis..
>
> The point of this post is to challenge those
> people who un-cook this way all the time into
> thinking about the long-term consequences of this
> type of raw vegan diet..For short-term
> transitioning and the occasional indulgence I see
> no problems with these foods..But, for those that
> choose to eat this way for long periods of time it
> is my belief that there will be unintended
> consequences that will negatively affect one's
> health..
>
> Bruce

Yes, recipes will vary.. the "coconut whipped cream" I made
was "spur of the moment" made from a coconut off my counter
purchased for $2US, the water consumed while working in the
kitchen, the leftover (pulp) coconut flour promptly eaten
at other meals; all told 1400 +/- calories of nut
(drupe/"frut/nuit"). The health benefit (re. hypertension)
of eating whole food coconut has been noted in Kerala, India
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
and found to be beneficial up to 400 grams/day (about one
coconut).. so I was confident posting the recipe for a young
family as a healthy food, even a daily one and for life..
again, just my opinions.

blessings,
brad

thanks again Loeve for answering the OP's orginal questions i think its really easy at times for some of us folks to turn into food snobs and forget that other folks are in varying degrees of transition and therefore transform our opinions into lengthy opinions that have nothing to do with what the OP was asking in the first place

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Bruce (baltochef),

Thank you for sharing. I do forget this point myself. Why try to make "imitation" food, when there's new possiblities out there for us to enjoy!

Why post on a thread if you aren't going to answer the question?

It's okay, I've been guilty of going off-topic myself on other's threads, though I try not to But seriously, how about starting a new thread on the pros and cons of imitating cooked food? I just want to know how to make a good imitation raw vegan cream!

Thank you for the suggestions so far and especially for the one on the science of what makes a cream whip.

[juneauempire.com]
[www.turtlepuddle.org]

"The translucent red berries known as soapberries... are tiny, bitter, and soapy to the touch. But in the right hands, soapberries can be whipped into a frothy treat. At Southeast Alaska's largest Native gathering, women from Alaska and northern Canada competed to make the tastiest version of the rare delicacy."

"To prepare, a small amount of berries is mixed with water and whipped into a froth. Soapberries are very bitter, so people often add sweeteners, such as chopped apples and bananas or they whip the berries with juice from fruit cocktail instead of water. It’s very important to keep the berries free of oil, as it will affect the frothing. People whip soapberries in a very clean bowl made of metal or glass (plastic is not recommended).

Historically, people whipped soapberries with their hands or with a wooden whisk. The whisk was made by shaving sections of wood toward the end of a stick and stopping before the shavings fell off. Today, Native people sometimes still use their hands to froth soapberries served at ceremonies, although it’s now more common to use an electric mixer.

Soapberries may be harvested when they are green or red, and some people prefer to eat them green. The froth of green soapberries appears white, while red soapberries produce a pink color."

[www.sealaskaheritage.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2008 03:29AM by Mislu.

Musicbebe,
I found a distribution map for Shepherdia canadensis, or 'soapberries' its distribution is pretty wide. Perhaps you can try growing your own! If not you, then perhaps other people might find this inspiring and try.
[plants.usda.gov]

Here are some possible sources.
[www.cnplx.info]

I found a supplier and ordered a few, and have two growing in my yard. Two other ones died. I ordered mine from plants from the wild. I don't know what they have on stock presently.
[www.plantsofthewild.com]

I hope you have fun! This plant is known to be fun, make people happy. I commented on that on a previous post 'smoking after a meal', which has now been moved.


Soapberries are a fun berry! There is more than one way to feel good! You can whip the berries in a bowl with a little water. It makes a really nice foam, this could add some added interest to raw deserts. I know that soapberries are finding there way into some high end resturants in Canada. Traditionally some Indians added camus bulbs to make it sweeter, as they can be a little bit bitter. These days they usually just add sugar.

[gemini.oscs.montana.edu]
[www.wildflower.org]

Camus flowers/Camassia quamash
[en.wikipedia.org]


Some people report a mild euphoria from eating them, they do make you feel good, but I never equated that as a psychedelic plant. I don't know how they came up with that. "Tetrahydroharmol" INDEED!
[en.wikipedia.org]

In any case I ordered some online and have a few growing in my back yard, they are a way cool plant, beautiful, great healthy berries, and they fix nitrogen! The power of wild plants! gads i hope they never domesticate this plant. It would be good to make it more available, just don't mess with it!

Mislu,

Interesting! Does it have a fruity taste of it's own when it is sweetened? Like cranberries maybe?

Musicbebe,
Its been a long time since I had them. Actually I tried some berries just by themselves, no sugar or whipping. They tasted pretty sweet at first but then became bitter and a bit soapy tasting. I imagine that they are much better with some type of sweetner and whipping. How else would this custom of whipping and sweetning develop.

It feels good to share. It may not be exactly what you were looking for but hopefully its inspired you to look for some berries and try it, if you are anywhere in the zone where it could grow. I think it would be a fun addition to anyones menu. Have fun!

Jgunn, I'm very pleased the question was asked, as, without it, we would never have had Bruce's considered and thought-provoking posts.

me too debbie, i ended up having some coconut whip cream to go with my strawberries i froze this summer

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Musicbebe,
> I found a distribution map for Shepherdia
> canadensis, or 'soapberries' its distribution is
> pretty wide. Perhaps you can try growing your own!
> If not you, then perhaps other people might find
> this inspiring and try.
> [plants.usda.gov]
>
> Here are some possible sources.
> [www.cnplx.info]
> a+canadensis
>
> I found a supplier and ordered a few, and have two
> growing in my yard. Two other ones died. I ordered
> mine from plants from the wild. I don't know what
> they have on stock presently.
> [www.plantsofthewild.com]
>
> I hope you have fun! This plant is known to be
> fun, make people happy. I commented on that on a
> previous post 'smoking after a meal', which has
> now been moved.
>
>
> Soapberries are a fun berry! There is more than
> one way to feel good! You can whip the berries in
> a bowl with a little water. It makes a really nice
> foam, this could add some added interest to raw
> deserts. I know that soapberries are finding there
> way into some high end resturants in Canada.
> Traditionally some Indians added camus bulbs to
> make it sweeter, as they can be a little bit
> bitter. These days they usually just add sugar.
>
>
>
>
> Camus flowers/Camassia quamash
>
>
>
> Some people report a mild euphoria from eating
> them, they do make you feel good, but I never
> equated that as a psychedelic plant. I don't know
> how they came up with that. "Tetrahydroharmol"
> INDEED!
>
>
> In any case I ordered some online and have a few
> growing in my back yard, they are a way cool
> plant, beautiful, great healthy berries, and they
> fix nitrogen! The power of wild plants! gads i
> hope they never domesticate this plant. It would
> be good to make it more available, just don't mess
> with it!

"Sxusem".. nice whipping idea Mislu! Your berry bush (called Canada buffaloberry in my region) grows in my town (I looked it up). Now that I know what they look like I'll try to get out next berry season about July when I think they'll be ripening about the same time as the dewberries, and just might order a couple plants too

I followed your link about Shepherdia canadensis, and it said the twigs can be made into tea for medicinal use [www.for.gov.bc.ca] , and another source studied that chemical you mentioned, "Tetrahydroharmol".. they derived it from the roots, so maybe the berries are less psychedelic than the twigs or roots, just guessing..

And those camus bulbs sound like a natural sweetener that would be attractive in the garden too

Loeve,
Thank you for your response. I am glad that these berries inspired someone. I thought they might be that special thing for someone. Hopefully we will see some inspired new dishes or additions to existing dishes as a result. Its exciting and fun. This past year my plants flowered and started to produce a few berries, but they unexpectedly dried up and fell off, I think the plant was too small and too young. I don't know about the 'psychedelic' effects, I imagine these are weak to zerp in the berries, otherwise they would be illegal or the feds would be out trying to stomp them out of existence.

I planted camus bulbs, but they didn't come up, at least they never bloomed, so I didn't know they were there. I found one source for ordering the bulbs, there might be more sources. I think they are wonderful. In whatcom county in washington they grow a lot of berries, and bulbs commercially, except for these two plants. I guess there just isn't a market for them.

bump