This might be of interest - it underlines my fears about people telling other people how to be raw with little or no real experience themselves, amongst other things.

[fresh-network.typepad.com]

Good to see there is a bit of honesty around.

This guy is the best!

WorkoutMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This guy is the best!
You don't think he has watered-down the Raw Food approach
to attract a larger Clientele?

Wheatgrass Yogi - I don't think he means that at all but even if he did getting more people on a healthy path has got to be a good thing. But I repeat I think he has an honest and truthful approach to raw foods.

No. I think he is being practical and trying to help as many people as possible.

I believe he is basing his opinions after dealing with many people over a long period of time - as opposed to what works for him.

how refreshing it is to hear someone who is obviously very knowledgeable and truthful offering guidence to those who are seeking.

may God bless you Dr. Fred Bisci. (applause)

Wheatgrass Yogi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WorkoutMan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This guy is the best!
> You don't think he has watered-down the Raw Food
> approach
> to attract a larger Clientele?

I can't speak to his motives. But I agree that this thread is inappropriate and have reported it as such. Prana posted TOS back in Feb. And I've already violated them by debating instead of supporting. More's the pity. Living in the present moment, I endeavor to persevere!!! [hoping noone on the Board saw Josey Wales, in which case, I am busted! lol]

Paul

Paul - Im sorry that the thread offends you. I wonder if you read what I read.
Mr. Bisci doesn't advocate non - vegan food - he clearly says that it isn't needed and you are better off without it.
It's nothing like the same as someone coming on here and talking about the benefits of grass fed beef - what a ridiculous thing to say.



Thank God for people like Fred Bisci who offer support to people who are clearly trying to improve their health and diet.

Prana - I apologise if this posting does violate the conditions of this board - I always try to respect them and really didn't think this was inappropriate at all.
I thought it was a positive affirmation for people who do not manage to be 100% raw by someone who has clearly made a huge success of being RAW VEGAN himself for 40years.

There are legitimate violations of posting rules, and then there's overworking minutiae. To criticize this post for being inappropriate is to commit the latter offense--sorry, Paul. Mr. Bisci is the last raw foods advocate one could justifiably denounce!

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ......Mr. Bisci
> is the last raw foods advocate one could
> justifiably denounce!
He certainly seems legit. I remember seeing Fred Bisci in
a video with his friend Paul Nison. They had just harvested 60 some
odd Coconuts for the Water. They were like a couple of kids. I don't
know what they were going to do with all the Coconut 'meat'.....WY

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are legitimate violations of posting rules,
> and then there's overworking minutiae. To
> criticize this post for being inappropriate is to
> commit the latter offense--sorry, Paul. Mr. Bisci
> is the last raw foods advocate one could
> justifiably denounce!

Tamukha,

I respectfully disagree. His program clearly isn't vegan:

"Please tell us more about your “Intermediate Level Lifestyle.

This programme takes everything into consideration, including what works for you psychologically, practically and socially. It’s approximately 80% raw and 100% whole foods. It can be varied according to people’s preferences: for example, vegan or a moderate amount of non vegan foods – I give people many, many options. I encourage people to go vegan if they can, but some people don’t want to be vegan. In many cases, that’s fine as long as they eat only “clean” animal protein, and they eat it in moderation as part of a healthy lifestyle. Do they need the animal protein? No – people would be better off supplementing any missing nutrients that are indicated than eating animal protein."

His program may or may not be healthful. I'm not debating that. But it's clearly not vegan. This is a raw vegan support board. I think if you are going to start a thread, it needs to comport with the stated policy, to wit:

"Living and Raw Food Boards Policy

These boards are provided as a public service, courtesy of LIVING-FOODS.COM. Please post and reply to queries related only to the vegan/vegetarian living food lifestyle."

I agree that Mr. Bisci has an impressive history. I just don't believe his program is vegan based on what I've read. And I "thought", that this was what we all agreed to when we signed up. Perhaps I am in error.

Paul

sorry paul ....tamuka has spoken with integrity and respect.

your narrow mind is obviously unable to breakthrough the gap of understanding ...which bottom line is what really holds true meaning and goodness.

...... it is my opinion that your over zealous reaction is much inappropriate and unfair to a healthier world.

juicin' john

juicin' john Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sorry paul ....tamuka has spoken with integrity
> and respect.
>
> your narrow mind is obviously unable to
> breakthrough the gap of understanding ...which
> bottom line is what really holds true meaning and
> goodness.
>
> ...... it is my opinion that your over zealous
> reaction is much inappropriate and unfair to a
> healthier world.
>
> juicin' john

Having an opinion is one thing. Personal attacks are another. We may disagree with one another. But that doesn't justify the name calling.

Paul

Paul,

The post itself is not in violation of the posting rules; what one infers from it, possibly, but that doesn't determine appropriateness. This is probably why Prana hasn't deleted this thread, though he'd be justified to do so on the grounds of its becoming needlessly--NEEDLESSLY--controversial.

It's nitpicky stuff like this that's likely caused so many old posters to go AWOL . . .

Fred Bisci has a new book out --

[www.fredbisci4health.com]

He's trying to reach a wider audience by talking to them where they are at. It's a time honored approach.

Well I think Fred is a good guy, Ive listened to a couple interviews of him and he apears to be sincere in his effort to help people. Come on people why the bickering? Lets give this guy the kudos he deserves instead of arguing about nothing!

flipperjan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This might be of interest - it underlines my fears
> about people telling other people how to be raw
> with little or no real experience themselves,
> amongst other things.
>
> [fresh-network.typepad.com]
> g/2010/04/our-exclusive-interview-with-dr-fred-bis
> ci.html

I didn't know Fred Bisci has a Ph.D. in nutritional science and has worked mainly with clients who come to him in a disease state, 35,000 of them! That's a lot of experience, and as a raw vegan for so many years he has so much to offer.

ok paul...i admit i was harsh with my post and i apologize to you for name calling.

the point i would like to make has been nicely stated by some of the others here in defense of Dr. fred bisci's (beeshi) contribution to helping people to improve their health.

bottom line is that this board is about helping people who are seeking to find a way to become healthier and dr. bisci has done some incredible work to manifest this idea.

let's not get hung up on the small print ...sorry for offending you.

juicin' john

loeve - I hope you didn't misunderstand me - I didn't make my point very succinctly

I agree Dr Bisci has years of very valuble experience - I have come across others who have set themselves up with next to no experience themselves.

I shall look out for the book - thanks for the tip.

John,

Thank you. I accept your apology. Agree to disagree on the substance and maintain civility on the process.

To Tamukha, agree to disagree, one person's minutiae is another person's principal. Discount it if you must, but being vegan matters to me very much. There are many health practioners in addition to Mr. Bisci with plant-based non-vegan program that I respect reaching hundred of thousands if not millions of people. My original post was a reaction to Wheatgrass Yogi's thoughtful question about whether or not Mr. Bisci had "watered down" his message to reach more people. My point.

But if respecting the term "vegan" means anything. It means you can't and shouldn't be posting and promoting people who are endorsing programs or products that aren't vegan. Or to quote Joan Allen's wonderful performance in the 1999 movie "The Contender" "Principles only mean something when you stick to them when its inconvenient". I would love to promote Joel Fuhrman's contributions here, but he isn't vegan either. I took Prana at his word and respect the definition of vegan as one who doesn't eat, consume or use animal products. Somewhere in there we need to add "or cut corners to get to more people".

btw, another reason Prana may not have cancelled this thread, yet anyway, is that I did not report it to him as I had said. I reconsidered after rereading Mr. Bisci's interview Unfortunately for me as I have posted on other threads, having a change of heart doesn't help when the editing clock ends.

Again, I respect Mr. Bisci's accomplishments very much and I acknowledge his contributions to the vegan and living food community at large. And I also think because his program is not vegan, it doesn't belong here. I understand and respect that most of you see a different picture. And I hope to continue to interact with you here in the future without the personal comments. Best.

Paul

Oh, I see now flipperjan, Fred does make the point strongly in the interview now that you mention it. It's just that his Intermediate Level Lifestyle idea has grapped my attention a little more so than the issue of inexperienced rawists who have a following, a more delicate problem that I wasn't quite sure how to respond to. Sorry to have missed the plot a bit.

based on what i have gathered from seeing, meeting,listening to and speaking with dr. bisci at different raw food events which we mutually were attending....i would be absolutely hesitant to "suspect him" of watering down his message to reach more people".

such a thought is in the realm of suspicion without any proof whatsoever and i think we all know pathology of such. dr. bisci ain';t about money ...he is a real person who loves helping people get healthier. time to put the nit picking mentality out of this.

i doubt that any one involved in this discussion has evan come close to doing what dr. fred bisci has done for raw food promoting and healthy living guidence.