Can anyone please explain to me why vitamin c pills aren't powerful antioxidants the way they're supposed to be? Is the ascorbic acid in C pills doing anything for those who take them instead of those people who get their vitamin c from raw?

I think supplemental Vitamin C becomes more potent at larger doses. From raw foods is probably better, though.

Vitamin C supplements at high doses can help. But, it's at really, really high doses usually and you have to take many doses a day or take it intravenously because it breaks down quickly and easily. The body probably does respond to vitamin C in foods better because of the synergistic relationships of other vitamins, minerals, and other compounds found in whole foods. But, it may not be possible for people in poor health to consume or process whole foods in quantities large enough to allow healing.

If you haven't looked at the info on the Vitamin C Foundation website you may find it interesting. In particular, this scientific article talks about the intake necessary to see differences in healing of different diseases.

TABLE I - USUAL BOWEL TOLERANCE DOSES 

                           GRAMS ASCORBIC ACID    NUMBER OF DOSES      
CONDITION                  PER 24 HOURS           PER 24 HOURS 

normal                       4 -  15              4 -  6 
mild cold                   30 -  60              6 - 10 
severe cold                 60 - 100+             8 - 15 
influenza                  100 - 150              8 - 20 
ECHO, coxsackievirus       100 - 150              8 - 20 
mononucleosis              150 - 200+            12 - 25 
viral pneumonia            100 - 200+            12 - 25 
hay fever, asthma           15 -  50              4 -  8 
environmental and                                        
 food allergy              0.5 -  50              4 -  8 
burn, injury, surgery       25 - 150+             6 - 20 
anxiety, exercise and                                    
 other mild stresses        15 -  25              4 -  6 
cancer                      15 - 100              4 - 15 
ankylosing spondylitis      15 - 100              4 - 15 
Reiter's syndrome           15 -  60              4 - 10 
acute anterior uveitis      30 - 100              4 - 15 
rheumatoid arthritis        15 - 100              4 - 15 
bacterial infections        30 - 200+            10 - 25 
infectious hepatitis        30 - 100              6 - 15 
candidiasis                 15 - 200+             6 - 25 

yeah, its always better if yo ucan get it from the source, but I take supplements just to help out, especially since when your starting to get sick, and become sick, your body can use up to 10,000% of whats considered your daily value... so a bit extra I dont think would ever be a bad thing...

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Largely because its sythethic and unstable. Natural vitamin C from herbal sources has been found to be 12 times as strong.

The body can only absorb around 500mg of sythethic vitamin C at one time, larger doses can cause kidney stones as the excess vitamin C breaks down into oxalic acid. Which is why megadosing vitamin C isnt a good idea like some protocols suggest.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Largely because its sythethic and unstable.
> Natural vitamin C from herbal sources has been
> found to be 12 times as strong.

When? Where?


> The body can only absorb around 500mg of sythethic
> vitamin C at one time, larger doses can cause
> kidney stones as the excess vitamin C breaks down
> into oxalic acid. Which is why megadosing vitamin
> C isnt a good idea like some protocols suggest.

Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of kidney stones in women
Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J.
J Am Soc Nephrol 10:4:840-845, Apr 1999

Abstract

Urinary oxalate is an important determinant of calcium oxalate kidney stone formation. High doses of vitamin B6 may decrease oxalate production, whereas vitamin C can be metabolized to oxalate. This study was conducted to examine the association between the intakes of vitamins B6 and C and risk of kidney stone formation in women. The relation between the intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones were prospectively studied in a cohort of 85,557 women with no history of kidney stones. Semiquantitative food-frequency questionnaires were used to assess vitamin consumption from both foods and supplements. A total of 1078 incident cases of kidney stones was documented during the 14-yr follow-up period. A high intake of vitamin B6 was inversely associated with risk of stone formation. After adjusting for other dietary factors, the relative risk of incident stone formation for women in the highest category of B6 intake (> or =40 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<3 mg/d) was 0.66 (95% confidence interval, 0.44 to 0.98). In contrast, vitamin C intake was not associated with risk. The multivariate relative risk for women in the highest category of vitamin C intake (> or =1500 mg/d) compared with the lowest category (<250 mg/d) was 1.06 (95% confidence interval, 0.69 to 1.64). Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of kidney stone formation in women. Routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent stone formation appears unwarranted.

I cant find the research but it was on amla berry saying that it was 12 times the strength of sythethic vitamin C.

I have read a few other studies saying excess vitamin C intake was assosiated, ill try find them also.

I take a supplement that is made out of rose hips...not synthetic at all, and its cheap...sooo if synthetic is an issue, which I believe it probably is, I should be fine... plus, spruce tip tea is an awesome source of vitamin c as well, with roughly 10 times the vitamin C of an orange, I use a little mint and some type of lemony herb or another infused with it as well, and then sweeten it slightly, wintergreen is also good with it, but somebody destroyed my plant long ago, so no more delicious wintergreen for me...

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

rose hip is decent and unlike sythethic vitamin C has the supporting bioflavinoids for absorption same as amla, acerola etc.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Largely because its sythethic and unstable.
> Natural vitamin C from herbal sources has been
> found to be 12 times as strong.
>
> The body can only absorb around 500mg of sythethic
> vitamin C at one time, larger doses can cause
> kidney stones as the excess vitamin C breaks down
> into oxalic acid. Which is why megadosing vitamin
> C isnt a good idea like some protocols suggest.


Did you find any support for these statements?

veghunter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Largely because its sythethic and unstable.
> > Natural vitamin C from herbal sources has been
> > found to be 12 times as strong.
> >
> > The body can only absorb around 500mg of
> sythethic
> > vitamin C at one time, larger doses can cause
> > kidney stones as the excess vitamin C breaks
> down
> > into oxalic acid. Which is why megadosing
> vitamin
> > C isnt a good idea like some protocols suggest.
>
>
> Did you find any support for these statements?

I havent been able to find the amla berry research paper which says its 12 times as strong as sythethic vitamin C. If anyone finds it id appreciate a PM.

The latter abou thte oxalic acid, some of the information ive found suggests that large doses of sythethic vitamin C can contribute to kidney stones due to the conversion to oxalic acid. Other bits show that although the increase in urinary oxalic acid there was no kidney stones.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2010 02:58PM by powerlifer.

Here's a summary of research on amla berries; the studies cited would have to be searched for individually(I am lazy once again today!):

[www.organicconsumers.org]

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a summary of research on amla berries; the
> studies cited would have to be searched for
> individually(I am lazy once again today!):
>
> [www.organicconsumers.org]
> /Amla.pdf


Thanks for that tamukha, i have that in my bookmarks but its a mine field to find.

Id love to be able to source fresh amla berries.

do you know what they require to grow and flourish?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

I can't find the actual article for free. I don't like these secondary sources because they can make claims that aren't necessarily justified by the reference. Sometimes they are very accurate representations of the data and findings, but it's really hard to tell without access to the original article.

(I'm to trying to be nitpicky; I'm just a bit frustrated at the moment.)

VITAMIN C ~ THE STRESS HORMONE
Phylogenetic Implications of Vitamin C Synthesis

As plants and animals emerged from aquatic environments onto the land around 400-300 million years ago the terrestrial life became challenged to acquire certain marine micronutrients, including iodine, selenium, zinc, copper, manganese, iron, etc. To replace these marine minerals life learned to produce other endogenous antioxidants such as Vitamin C, polyfenols, Beta carotene, flavonoids, Vitamin E etc. Thus the vast majority of plants and animals on earth are able to convert glucose into ascorbic acid through a sequence of four enzyme-driven steps. The glucose needed to produce ascorbate in mammals and perching birds is extracted from glycogen in the liver. While in reptiles and birds it is produced in the kidneys. However due to a genetic mutation, humans, higher apes, guinea pigs, birds, and some bats do not manufacture Vitamin C. In primates this mutation is thought to have occurred around 25 million years ago.

When higher primates lost the ability to synthesize ascorbate they lost the homeostatic feedback mechanism which increases ascorbate synthesis under the influence of external and internal stresses. The cause of this phenomenon is that the final enzyme in the synthetic process, L-gulonolactone oxidase, cannot be produced due to a defective gene for the enzyme. This mutation has not been lethal because vitamin C has been abundant in their food sources. For example most simians consume vitamin C in amounts 10 to 20 times higher than the RDA. On the other hand, with animals that still produce their own vitamin C: cats make up to 2800 mg a day, rabbits up to 15,820 mg, goats up to 13,300 mg and as much as 100,000 mg daily when faced with life-threatening disease, trauma, or stress. Uric acid and ascorbate are both strong reducing agents. The loss of the ability to synthesize ascorbate parallels the loss of the ability to break down uric acid. This observation has led to the suggestion that in higher primates, uric acid may have taken over some of the functions of ascorbate.

Bill Sardi in The New Truth About Vitamins and Minerals says that a 160 lb mountain goat makes about 13 grams of Vitamin C a day, and more when under stress. Vitamin C is an anti-stress vitamin and our need for it varies with our level of physical or emotional stress. Stress causes the adrenal glands to signal the release of sugars and fats into the blood stream to prepare for a response to danger. In most other animals but apes, fruit bats and guinea pigs these sugars are converted to Vitamin C in the liver. Sardi suggests that if humans also manufactured Vitamin C, we would be immune to degenerative disease and our lifespan would be more like 144-216 years.

Vitamin C (L-ascorbic acid) is available in many forms, and according to Linus Pauling natural and synthetic L-ascorbic acid are chemically identical. Linus Pauling says that the true and best form of vitamin C is L-ascorbic Acid (C6H8O6). It is recommended that there needs to balance of Vitamin C intake with up to 70% Bioflavonoids, to increase assimilation, utilization and prolong the Vitamin C’s effects. Mineral salts of ascorbic acid (Sodium ascorbate and Calcium ascorbate, Magnesium ascorbate, Potassium Ascorbate) are buffered and therefore, less acidic to the stomach than ascorbic acid.

Vitamin C is a common enzymatic cofactor in mammals used in the synthesis of collagen. It acts as an electron donor for three enzymes participating in the synthesis of collagen. If vitamin C is missing, then the collagen synthesized in its absence is weak, resulting in the entire body losing its structural integrity. The free radical scavenging and collagen building properties of Vitamin C are important to upright walking hominids and full sovereign brain utilization through spinal health—for symptoms of vitamin C deficiency reduce spinal integrity resulting in scoliosis, lordosis spinal curvature and impaired cognition. The central nervous system has the highest concentrations of Vitamin C, where it influences the function of neurotransmitters such as dopamine, norephinephrine, serotonin, NMDA and glutamate. Vitamin C’s role in the synthesis of the neurotransmitters has a stimulating effect, fosters alertness, and plays an important regulatory role in long-term memory and learning.

It also protects endorphins from being broken down prematurely, which elevates mood. Mega-dose Vitamin C is used during opiate withdrawal as it fills the opiate receptors and greatly reduces withdrawal symptoms. It is required for the synthesis of carnitine, needed for the transport of fat into mitochondria, for conversion to energy. Vitamin C is needed for bile production, as an antimutagenic and for the regeneration of other antioxidants. It may also protect from lead poisoning by inhibiting intestinal absorption or enhancing urinary excretion of lead.

When you take Vitamin C tablets make sure they are not the chewable type or you will lose tooth enamel. I am using “Now C-1000 with Bioflavonoids.” During a kundalini awakening or acute stress it is advisable to supplement with Vitamin C up to 4-8g per day. Generally the more stressed we are the more careful we have to be to not include cooked carbs, fats or transfats in our diet, and to increase our antioxidant intake.

Camu Camu—Is a fruit containing the highest documented quantity of natural vitamin C on earth. Camu Camu's vitamin C content has been recorded at 500,000 ppm. Compare that to orange which provides 500 to 4,000 ppm (parts per million) of vitamin C, or Acerola which provides up to 172,000 ppm.
Amla (Amalaki)—The Indian gooseberry, is one of the fruits in the most widely used Ayurvedic herbal formula – Triphala. It is considered a general panacea for almost all imbalances and described as containing 20 times the amount of vitamin C to be found in an orange. The fruit contained 482.14 units of superoxide dismutase/g fresh weight. As one of the highest vitamin C sources in nature, amla fruit is antiaging, antidiabetic and immune enhancing. The powder of the dried amla fruit is an effective remedy of hyperacidity, ulcers, blood cleansing, inhibits platelets aggregation, lowers cholesterol levels. Amla is a longevity tonic, which stops premature graying or hair-loss, encourages nail and hair growth, and improves eyesight.
Rose Hips—Are a valuable source of vitamin C, like Amla they contain 20 times more vitamin C than oranges. Overripe hips are sweet, but have lost much of their vitamin C. Rosehips are also full of bioflavonoids, associated with fruit pigment that increase the absorption and biological effectiveness of vitamin C.
Moringa Oleifera—The dried and powdered leaves of the tree provide 7x the vitamin C of oranges. Be aware that the skins and seeds/kernels of plants contain the most amount of antioxidants…for example mango peel and kernel has antioxidant levels that are 20-40 times higher than the flesh itself. One study showed that pomegranate peel gave the maximum antioxidant activity due to the presence of its high polyphenolic content. At a concentration of 60 ppm pomegranate peel powder reduced fat oxidation by 65% in an in vitro assay.
Pinebark Extract—Pycnogenol helps potentiate vitamin C and other antioxidant activity. I also recommend including other antioxidants such as vitamin E and beta-carotene, along with vitamin C, for their protective ability. Moreover, many of the B vitamins are important as cell fuel, as are several key minerals and CoEnzyme QIO.

How to Live Longer And Feel Better by Linus Pauling