[180degreehealth.blogspot.com]

what are your thoughts on this?

I gotta agree Doug Graham aint looking too great, and that athletic fitness is by no means a barometer of good health.

The part about low cholestrol being as bad as high cholestrol is an interesting statement. It goes against the general 'group think' of American thought,if low is good, then lower is even better. Along with the other mantra, if some is good, then more is better.

I never heard anything about a low metabolic rate being associated with cancer,stroke or any other disease state. Except the professor mentioned something about anorexics activating programed cell death, after the body just gives up from a lack of calories and nutrients over time. I don't know if this is the same thing, but I suppose it might happen if someone went on a prolonged fast.

How is anyone to know what is the right metabolic rate? Or ideal body temp? How can we assume that a typical person or 'average' person has it right? I remember reading a short article about this culture that had a very high rate of goiters. It was so common that people without them were called a particular name, and it was very unattractive. So, they really thought that what was ideal was the same thing as 'normal', because that was the common appearance of the typical person.

I have a dear friend who was a very active runner in his younger years. He followed a very low fat diet, with high carbs. I think it was what appealed to him. He now suffers with some problems with his feet. I noticed how there wasn't much fat anywhere on his body, which he thought was great. But it was also very low on the padding of his feet. This particular type of thing was very common in the running club he was a part of, with foot, ankle, knee and hip problem from the pounding.

The one thing about 80-10-10 that I can complain about is that it does not resolve the B-12 and iodine issue properly. I believe that we need both of these in vast amounts.
I also don't accept the view from Doug - that all humans should be athletes with 7-8 percent of body fat (for men). I believe in 'aquatic ape' theory and I think that we are built for swimming and walking, not for running.

I still think that 80-10-10 theory is extremely important for human kind, even though it does not provide all the answers.

The linked article is not even worth mentioning, totally biased and insulting. I have written on this forum against Doug's and DR's endurance training and philosophy, but I will forever be grateful to Doug for his book. It opened my eyes like nothing else and changed my life, saved me from disease. This theory is not the final one, people will add to it, but it is still a cornerstone, a very important book and deserves a great respect.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2011 09:00PM by rab.

Rab,
Shouldn't great sources of iodine still be available to someone doing 811? Like 'seaweeds', and also spinach and perhaps some other greens, plus some amount of sunflowerseeds. Those are vegan, and seaweed and greens are low fat. It seems like one could grow some of their own fruit with high iodine fertilizer.

Look at this, this is who I would beleive over any other source.
[www.aliveraw.com]

rzman10001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look at this, this is who I would beleive over any
> other source.
> [www.aliveraw.com]
> m%e2%80%99s-new-book-The-80-10-10-Diet.aspx



Yup, me too. I believe him above all others in many, many things. Man knows his stuff, fer reals.

can this man do finger pushups? [www.mondaynightliveevents.com]

It looks like Matt Stone eats animal products. I am not surprised that he is not into 80/10/10.

rzman10001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look at this, this is who I would beleive over any
> other source.
> [www.aliveraw.com]
> m%e2%80%99s-new-book-The-80-10-10-Diet.aspx

Id rather shoot myself than follow Brian Clement

WorkoutMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rzman10001 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Look at this, this is who I would beleive over
> any
> > other source.
> >
> [www.aliveraw.com]
>
> > m%e2%80%99s-new-book-The-80-10-10-Diet.aspx
>
> Id rather shoot myself than follow Brian Clement

Why?

Whoa. I can see feeling that way about David Wolfe but Clement? Really? I've met him a bunch of times and the guy knows his stuff. Good man, that Brian C.

I think people who want to eat all raw have a hard time following Brian Clement because he advocates and eats himself a diet of 20% cooked foods by volume. Since Brian feels that an all raw diet is insufficient, it seems prudent for people wanting to eat all raw to find a proponent who has a way to get most of what you need nutritionally from the food choices.

From what I understand from his lectures etc he advocates a 100% raw diet for healing, otherwise high raw is the way to go. It's not that he finds a completely raw diet insufficient, it's that he doesn't consider it necessary for vibrant health.
Moderate raw, seems like a reasonable approach to me.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From what I understand from his lectures etc he
> advocates a 100% raw diet for healing, otherwise
> high raw is the way to go. It's not that he finds
> a completely raw diet insufficient, it's that he
> doesn't consider it necessary for vibrant health.
>
> Moderate raw, seems like a reasonable approach to
> me.


Thanks Coco, that's what I was going to say. Clement is the real deal, he backs up every thing he says in the real world with real people and never thinks he is done learning. I have disagreed with him on occasion but he does what he needs too to help people and to keep H.H.I. running,this man is brilliant and a common sense thinker. He is out to make a living by saving lives and changing the world into a better place if possible.

athletes aren't known for their long lives

My video to keep me inspired on my health quest: [www.youtube.com]

WanderRA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WorkoutMan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > rzman10001 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Look at this, this is who I would beleive
> over
> > any
> > > other source.
> > >
> >
> [www.aliveraw.com]
>
> >
> > > m%e2%80%99s-new-book-The-80-10-10-Diet.aspx
> >
> > Id rather shoot myself than follow Brian
> Clement
>
> Why?

Plant fats and vegtetables for me is a low energy lifestyle, not one Im interested in living. Im not convinced Clement is the "real deal" he makes himself out to be (He talks in a way that makes him seem like an expert). He often talks about the "real science" hipocrates does, but then he makes unscientific statements like saying blending isn't good cause it will oxidise all the nutrients, but juicing is ok. My teacher Dr. Morse who is also in Florida has spoken about the string of people he gets, who have tried Hipocrates but didn't get the results they were after. I met 2 people if florida who went to hipocrates and weren't very impressed. One lady told me some of the people were improving but there were also the others who were getting worse and nothing was being done for those people. Plus, Hippocrates is a rip off. Super expensive.

Plus also refer to my article here, defending fruit as a health food.

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

All these raw "gurus" have major faults and often come out with dangerous unscientific false statements such as breathing in air has b12 etc. Which is why i tend to not follow any of them because none of them are consistently as good as there made out to be.

Saying that some of what they promote has rubbed off on me and helped me grow, increasing my fruit intake even further, eating more greens than i ever was before both of which are great things.

Some seem to just see the DR suffix before these guys names and just accept and agree with everything they say blindly. To me this is dangerous, many MD's get it wrong and just blindly accepting without doing your own research on a topic as vast and diverse as health is dangerous in my opinion.

On a different note i see you said "Plant fats and vegetables for me is a low energy lifestyle". In my opinion it doesn't have to be at all, fats from good sources can be a great source of energy, its just some seem to think you have to go overboard or to include fats in your diet must mean you eat raw gourmet all day and 300g etc. I have always had more energy with a moderate fat intake ive found, each to there own though i just think fats get an awful bad rep nearly everywhere in the health movement.

Also when it comes to health everyone is vastly different, how one may react to a diet or therapy could be vastly different from the next. Most of these "gurus" seem to promote a one diet/lifestyle fixes all, or water fasts will cure everything etc. It sadly just doesn't work like that or stubborn health conditions would be a doddle to cure.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2011 02:47PM by powerlifer.

Thats cool. Im not against moderate fat intake, I just want to point out that all the recipies in Lifeforce are fats and vegetables. Let me ask you this, Chris, would you eat a diet of all plant fats and vegetables? But I agree fats get a bad rap to a certain degree, but then again so do fruits. It seems at the moment were in a fat trend in the health food movement. Clement, Cousens, Mercola, Sisson, all the paleo crew etc.. Funny back in the 70s, and 80s it was all about whole grains. What nutrient will we worship next?

WorkoutMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thats cool. Im not against moderate fat intake, I
> just want to point out that all the recipies in
> Lifeforce are fats and vegetables. Let me ask you
> this, Chris, would you eat a diet of all plant
> fats and vegetables? But I agree fats get a bad
> rap to a certain degree, but then again so do
> fruits. It seems at the moment were in a fat
> trend in the health food movement. Clement,
> Cousens, Mercola, Sisson, all the paleo crew etc..
> Funny back in the 70s, and 80s it was all about
> whole grains. What nutrient will we worship next?

Ive never really looked into most of these guys who is the life force one is that cousins workoutman? But yeah just fats and vegetables is no good, in my opinion its just as imbalanced as other diets who basically eliminate all fats except a couple of overts once or twice a month.

"What nutrient will we worship next?" - Thats the thing i agree, the health movement seems to be fixated on some macronutrient having to be low, high or more special and needed than the rest, where did just a moderate intake of these macronutrients get lost. With a moderate diet not too heavy in any food or nutrient you usually naturally take in more carbs than fats and protein but neither are low either.



[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2011 03:08PM by powerlifer.

It's a mystery to me why people need or want a guru. Let your body be your guru.

Alone we can only collect so much information and experience, together that is multiplied to our advantage. Nothing wrong with learning from each other, no idol worship need be included .

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a mystery to me why people need or want a
> guru. Let your body be your guru.


One reason that comes to mind would be not to die! Most the people who come to H.H.I. or to other food guru's are very sick and need that knowledge to live. There is no other place in the world like H.H.I. As far as it not working for people that is just talk and talk is cheap. The reality is anyone who applies the diet gets better, but you have to use some common sense in that some things just are not healable. Also this lifechange is not easy on the toxic body or the toxic mind. Some people come and they love it, others feel like it is going to kill them. Of coarse some of these statements were addressed to other poster.

I think it's cute how Matt Stone apologizes for the condescending tone he has employed in some of his entries, without editing the condescension out of this entry! Kids today, heh!

I second Utopian Life--be your own guru

I think there are such good thoughtful responses in this thread!

It seems like the people posting on this thread have at least as much good information to offer as DG or BC. Maybe we're all partners in this great raw food experiment!

If Doug Graham or Brian Clement is helping some individual, I think that's great. Of course, it's also good to be open to new information.

As for the fats or fruits debate, I thrive on both (yes fruits, nuts, seeds, avos, coconuts...) and can't even begin to imagine a happy healthy life without them.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2011 04:18AM by suncloud.

Lifeforce is Clements book. For sure we all are partners in this Raw experiment! Great way to put it Suncloud! It's unfortunate that the status quo medical establishment hasn't put any real research into diet as a healing method. We have to be the researchers! I guess no one makes money from telling people to eat healthy.

WorkoutMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lifeforce is Clements book.

Are you of the opinion that this a good book or a not so good book? This is what I can find about it on Amazon:

"The Hippocrates Health Institute has been the preeminent leader in the field of natural and complementary health care and education since 1956. Their philosophy is founded on the belief that a pure enzyme-rich diet, complemented by positive thinking and non-invasive therapies, is an essential element on the path to optimum health. Hippocrates Institute director Dr. Brian Clement shows how the Hippocrates LifeForce Program implements the use of raw living foods to help people stimulate natural immune defenses against cancer, heart disease, and other chronic diseases as well as maintain a healthy weight. This book is the result of many years of research in the field of human health, and includes case studies describing the experiences of people who have successfully healed themselves after conventional Western medicine had given them little of no hope for recovery."

I am interested in getting the Clements book after this thread.

Personally I seem to do way better on more greens/veggies/fat than more fruit sugar. My body has never liked sugar much. Yet fat leaves me "humming" with life and buzzing with energy! The way my body works on fat really disproves a lot of what people say about it weighing you down and what not.

I still think that there are people who metabolize fat better and people who metabolize sugar better. Different guru's for different folks!

Perhaps.

For me in a cold climate I'm finding that practically all I want in the summer is fresh fruit. My body goes absolutely crazy for it, and it's divinely delicious. And I eat a moderate amount of nuts here or there, when I crave them. But in the winter- totally different story- I needed a lot more fat/protein. When I tried to be fruitarian into the winter, I could barely get out of bed.

I agree. Fitness is not a barometer of good health. Doug Graham says this himself:

"You must differentiate between living with a sole purpose of optimum health and living with an intent to become as fit as possible."
(ref 57 in [www.rawgosia.com])

You can find many fit, good looking people who are not necessarily a picture of perfect health. Athletes do get cancers and many other diseases that most humans are prone too.

As far as 811, the diet has not been invented by Doug Graham, rather it was categorized and formalized by him. A progression from the gourmet raw food diet to fruit-based (and hence low-fat) diet is a natural, spontaneous event, if one allows oneself to evolve to what is more comfortable for the body.

For example, I never decided to become an 811er, I simply went raw and spontaneously progressed to fruit, as I discovered fruit to be my favorite fruit. On fruit I feel satiated, hydrated, have more energy, better skin and sunnier disposition than on high-fat raw or cooked.

I do not believe in a prescriptive approach to raw food diet. I believe in the power of our senses to guide me. Many raw foodists transition from fat-based to fruit-based raw diet spontaneously, because it feels good.


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