Yes, let's be RATIONAL.

B-12 supplementation is nearly zero risk. The very few who cannot tolerate cyano-cobalamin usually know that they are intolerant. They might be safe with methylcobalamin (ask your doctor). The rest of us can get by with cheaper cyanocobalamin.

B-12 deficiency can be very harmful indeed, causing permanent damage. The real scientific literature has many articles re: B-12 deficiency in unsuplemented vegans. There is indeed a risk to non-supplementation.

Instead of the IRRATIONAL, blind FEAR of supplements taught by extremists, let us be rational and make the simple observation that the risks of not supplementing, are higher than the risks of supplementing.

Let us further note that vegan B-12 is available, and let us choose to supplement with B-12 so we stay healthy.

Given that vegan and vegetarian nutritionists and scientists overwhelmingly recommend B-12 supplementation (or consumption of fortified foods), let us ignore the pseudoscience types who say otherwise.

1) Victoria Boutenko did not recommend supplements anywhere in her book.
2) Vitamin B-12 is found in bacteria, not animals or animal 'foods.' It is present on wild or freshly picked foods that have been touched with soil, and in some extent in fermented raw vegan foods; therefore if Storm did consume vitamin B-12, it was not through 'accidental insects,' but through the consumption of beneficial bacteria.
3) Meat and dairy products destroy the inner terrain with poisonous microbes and bring about a speedy death, period. People all over the world consume these things because they have lack the conciousness required to move beyond them. They are not health foods, they are parasitic time-bombs full of death, pain, and putrification.
4) The better answer to B-12 is to get tested twice a year, not to supplement. However, there is nothing wrong with B-12 supplements; they are natural and low-impact both ethically and environmentally, unlike all animal products. If one is living in the woods and eating only wild foods, then they will get B-12 from the soil microrganisms on those foods; in civilization we all use 'unnatural' things anyway, so a nice vegan B-12 supplement is within our nature. Anyone who wishes to kill, maim, and use another creature in our genus when all they need to do is swallow a pill is not following science; they are following the rot inside their own sympathies.
5) Yes, I do take the word of Storm over some random person on the internet who has never been raw or vegan at all, and yet wishes to come here and pretend his prejudices are formed by science.

Very good point Ally. I think it is better to be on a safe side and take some supplements. There are enough evidence of vegans reversing their health problems after taking b12 supplements.

brome Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I took a seminar at Joy Lake near Reno taught by
> Ann Wigmore around 1987. She was in poor health
> and looked her age.

Brome, I checked with Dr. Flora (drflora3rd@yahoo.com) who for many years worked with Dr. Ann Wigmore and was with her few weeks before she died. I asked Dr. Flora to elaborate on the health condition of Dr. Ann Wigmore. Here is what she said and explicitly told me to paste her answer for the forum to read about Dr. Ann Wigmore.


Dear [XXXX], would you please send my email to you to the forum and paste it in there, so that the conversation might be squelched? I would like for the person who mentioned that she was in poor health to elaborate on that because I don't think it is true. She did not dye her hair black and she was wrinkled, yes, she jokingly told me that she was half way thinking about getting a face lift, and I, horrified, told her that she must be proud of her wrinkles. This was on the day before she left for Boston when we were walking up the stairs from the graduation party of the last 2 week program students, where she had gotten on her head and twirled around like a break dancer and boogied for about 20 minutes before she grabbed my hand and said, "We've got work to do" and started upstairs. I told her that the native americans I had worked with in the Santa Fe area were revered and honored by the lines on their faces, and she said, "This health food business is different. They want you to look young." I told her I didn't want to hear her ever say anything again about that because I thought she was beautiful." I have lived to regret that, because I never got a chance to talk to her again, because of the fire. She was either making a cup of ginger tea for one of her workers, like she made for me in Puerto Rico when the north winds would blow through our north side apartments, or cooking chicken for her little puppy that someone gave her when her last poodle died. She didn't want another puppy because it took so much of her time to train but she wasn't one to turn down an animal in need, and when the staff member fed the pup some chicken, it broke her heart to hear the pup whine and turn up her nose at the energy soup that she loved before the chicken was presented to her, so she bought the best organic chicken and cooked it for her, putting it in plastic bags and freezing it, to dole it out on top of the energy soup to entice her little doggie back into better eating habits. That was when the pot turned over and the hot pan caught the newspaper on fire that she normally spread on the floor to catch the scraps of food that flew from her peeler like broadcast seeds when she had a guest and wanted to give them some Energy Soup quickly. She hated to keep people waiting and wanting for food (the consummate hostess), so she had learned little tricks like that, and at the end of the day, when everyone but her had gone to sleep, she would fold up the newspaper and put it outside her door to be collected and thrown away by staff. That paper was the tinder that burned everything down. She was not touched in the fire. That was nearly 3 weeks after she left Puerto Rico, the last time we were together. She had gone up to find a publisher for her newest little brochure about her weed garden, and about how she had never felt better in her life and how it was like she was born again she had so much energy, since she went back to eating her grandmother's weeds, like dandelion, lambsquarter and purslane.

My view is that eating fresh, unprocessed foods is NATURAL. My view is also that eating cooked foods and taking highly processed stuff such as pills etc is extreme. So to be safe, I choose fresh fruit and vegies and avoid taking anything that I would not classify as human food.

Gosia


PS Quote from the article at [www.roylretreat.com] (there is a few more specific details in there, if you are interested):

"There is no such thing as a B12 deficiency, even in 100% raw vegan food eaters. They do not have to eat dirt, animal products, or take pills to secure coenzymes of B12. Bacteria in the intestinal tract make it for us, and the metabolically usable and necessary forms of coenzyme B12 are contained in unprocessed, fresh natural plant foods, particularly in nuts and seeds. The real problem in so-called B12 deficiency is a failure of digestion and absorption of foods, rather than a deficiency of the vitamin itself.

Vitamin B12 coenzymes are found in nuts and seeds as well as in many common greens, fruits, and many vegetables. If we ate 100 grams of green beans, beets, carrots, and peas we would have half of our so-called daily minimum requirement of Vitamin B12 coenzymes providing our digestion and absorption are normal. From Rodale's The Complete Book of Vitamins, page 236 we find the following clarification: “As you know, the B complex of vitamins is called a ‘complex’ because, instead of being one vitamin, it has turned out to be a large number of related vitamins, which appear generally in the same foods.”


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Gosia,

Very interesting article! I have to differ with the writer on 2 points. First, her assertion that people mistakenly think they are healing after taking a B12 supplement because they feel a stimulating rush, is just untrue - at least for me. I never felt anything at all when taking the supplements. The reason I thought I was healing was that my feet and hands stopped tingling, and that took a WHOLE MONTH (hardly could be called a rush!).

Some years ago, people were getting "B12" shots that were actually mixed with stimulant drugs. I don't know of course, but that could be where the author got that impression.

The author is also mistaken when she says that all B12 supplements contain cyanocobalamin. I was taking the cyanocobalamin myself until about a week ago when I was shocked to learn it contained cyanide. A minute amount of cyanide is supposedly used by the body anyway, but we get it already in fruits and vegetables. I sure don't need to be getting it also from a supplement! So I started taking a vegetarian methylcobalamin, and it doesn't contain any cyanocobalamin.

I would prefer though not to be taking any supplement at all. I'm a little torn about the whole thing. I read the Vegan Society's article on it, and it seems so well backed up by studies showing that people who are experiencing B12 deficiency symptoms do recover when taking the B12 supplements. And of course I know that my own symptoms disappeared. ONE THING THAT THE ANTI-B12 SUPPLEMENT ARTICLES NEVER SEEM TO ADDRESS is that there are (so far) no known vegan foods that contain enough B12 to bring about a RECOVERY from deficiency symptoms. Where are the studies that show B12 deficiency symptoms disappearing after eating blue-green algae?

On the other hand, it's well known that meat eaters often become B12 deficient when they're older because their bodies can no longer absorb B12 due to digestive distress or whatever. So of course it occurs to me that if I could heal the damage that might have been caused by the amoeba I had, then maybe the B12 in foods, especially algae, would be sufficient. Maybe fasting more often would help.

But if it's ONLY digestion, why are vegans able to absorb the B12 supplements (or so it would seem, since the deficiency symptoms disappear), but not absorb the B12 that some claim is found in vegan foods? By the way, the nutritional charts that I've read say beans, beets, carrots and peas don't supply any B12 (check nutritiondata.com).

So the question for me comes down to this: Is anyone able to find any studies that show that B12 deficiency symptoms in vegans have disappeared after a diet or lifestyle change (while staying vegan)? If you can find such studies, duplicated, then I'm sold. The B12 supplements are in the trash!

Best wishes, Ally



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2006 08:12AM by Ally.

Gosia,

Hm, that statement from the article, the one that says 100 grams of beans, beets, carrots and peas would give us half the minimum daily requirement of B12, really to me puts the whole article in doubt. How can anyone say something like that, so cut and dried, if there isn't a nutritional chart to back it up? Or is there a nutritional chart that differs with the USDA on this?

But, like I said in my post just above this one, if there are any studies duplicated that show vegans recovering from B12 deficiency symptoms due to diet or lifestyle changes (while staying vegan), then I'm sold, and the supplements are in the trash!

Hey, good discussion. I'm glad we can disagree about this on good terms. I think you're pretty cool Rawgosia!

Best wishes, Ally



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2006 08:35AM by Ally.

I am still looking for the rigorous thinking that comes with mathematics, we cannot just say something is right because somebody wrote so, no matter how ridiculous the statement is. I guess some cannot let go their religious or ethical thinking. The evidence of animals instinctively eat insects to supplement their diet is overwhelming.

>PS Quote from the article at [www.roylretreat.com]

The author, Vivian Vetrano presumably means well, but she is not an expert on Vitamin B-12, nor is she even a credible health expert. The extreme wing of natural hygiene has zero scientific credibility.

A rational person does not cling to dogma when it can harm them. B-12 supplementation is the rational choice for strict vegans, and agreed upon by a consensus of over 75 vegan/vegetarian scientific health professionals.

* There is no such thing as an expert. Does Dr Vetrano know it all? No. Do you? No.

* Statistical evidence cannot be considered the proof of some claim. For example, if 80% humans believe that the Earth is flat, it does not mean that this is true. If 99% humans believe that cooked food is healthy, it does not mean it is. The truth is not the result of a democratic voting.

* I have never seen my children instinctively eat insects. I never have been drawn to eating them either. As a 2-year old I used to observe them intensly (which once got my mother worried, when she saw me squating in one place for 2 hours), but have never felt like eating them. My school friends and I used to experiment with eating all sort of things, but insects were never even considered. And, I have seen numerouse examples of mothers force-feeding their babies and teaching them to eat meat. That's how I was introduced to it. At various summer camps which I attended as a teacher, ALL kids hated milk, and were forced to eat it by the adults (I was a bit sneaky about it and did not force my group of kids to it). Before I decided to be a raw vegan, I spontaneously progressed to veganism, without even realizing it (my mindset was that being vegan was weird). All these observations result in me concluding that I (human) am a natural born (raw) vegan. And, of course, I met many humans who are very comfortable with being vegan.

Ally, actually not very long ago, I heard stories of perfectly healthy raw foodists going for B12 shots and experiencing kind of euphoria after it, and on this basis believing that they must have had suffered B12 deficiency. Someone commented that these shots are like a new age drug, and I am not surprised. The argument that people experiencing B12 deficiency symptoms recover after taking B12 shots, does not convince me at all. An alcoholic will experience dissapearance of certain symptoms after taking alcohol, but this does not mean that he/she suffers from alccohol deficiency. Raw vegan diet clearly does not cause B12 deficiency (as there exist long-term raw vegans who do not supplememt and have no problems), and I am inclined to agree with Dr Vetrano that any problems are the result of the state of the body, not the diet. I would be concerned about putting in my body a foreign substance.

"So the question for me comes down to this: Is anyone able to find any studies that show that B12 deficiency symptoms in vegans have disappeared after a diet or lifestyle change (while staying vegan)? If you can find such studies, duplicated, then I'm sold. The B12 supplements are in the trash!"

Actually, it is well known that fasting reverses the B12 deficiency symptoms. I don't have the data, but if you are keen, I'm sure you could easily access it by contacting Dr Vetrano, for example.

I think that science is gradually progressing and eventually will catch up with raw foodism and perhaps even holistic approach to health. I wish I could live to see this happen.

I agree to disagree, Ally. I am not after changing anyone's opinion, and I am comfortable with everyone being exactly where they are.

Sincerely,
Gosia.

PS

I would like to share one my article (posted at [health.groups.yahoo.com] ), by someone who I consider to be particularly good at seeing things as they are:


"A return to health is about returning to following full
bodily senses again. The ability to think is merely one
sensing ability of the brain, and humans have become
overly dependent on that one sense, at the expense of
not listening to the rest of their bodies’ senses - the
innumerable senses that are in taste, vision, hearing,
touch, feeling, emotion, perception, sensation, psyche,
and other nerve (brain included) operations.

To pursue the intellect over the rest of the senses and
not seeking overall balance is to be "in the head".
Humans are sensuous creatures, as all animal species are.

The B12 issue is an "in the head" game. It's a head
game used by the meat industry and a misinformed
nutrition/medical/supplement-exspurt industry. It hooks
people into meat eating, supplement eating, following
exspurts, and otherwise remaining "in the head" and not
learning how to follow and trust their own full senses.
No other species plays head games with its diet. It is
not necessary for life. What is necessary is to follow
the full senses when making food choices. It takes a
processed food eater (cooking is a processing) many
years to slowly tune into their full senses again as
s/he gradually improves the diet from an intellectual
artificial diet to a natural, normal full sense-based
diet.

The definitions for frugivore, carnivore, herbivore, etc.
have been made by the science of biology, just as biology
has defined the words horse, animal, flower, etc., and
just as the dictionary is full of commonly used, defined
words. These terms are used to distinguish and classify
animals, based on the foods animal species are observed
to eat under normal and natural conditions, not under
civilized or domesticated conditions. All non-natural
diets are a product of civilized intellectualizing
overriding full sense based diets. The various foods
that an animal normally eats make up its diet. The
food types that a species mostly eats, becomes the
determinant for the diet classification - herbivore,
frugivore, carnivore, etc. I.e., a carnivore mostly
eats meat, so it’s called a carnivore. A carnivore
does not eat only meat. There are other foods in
its diet. Excessively hungry, starving, or desperate
animals will try to eat just about anything.

People who make up terms like vegan, vegetarian, fruitarian,
and breatharian are trying to impose their beliefs, opinions,
morals, ethics, or other intellectual pursuits on nature's
ways while pursuing idealism rather than observing how nature
works. Nature's life doesn't use intellect or idealism to
determine its food supply. Nature's life uses a full platter
of living senses. The life of Nature is full sense based,
not single intellect based. Humans are full sense creatures
of nature, and every creature of nature must use its full
senses to achieve health. Humans have only recently started
trying to override their full bodily senses with their
intellects.

Humans also make up terms like chemist, doctor, lawyer,
mother, father, etc, but everyone knows that these terms do
not mean that these people only do what the term strictly
means. These terms only describe what the person mostly does
in one area of their life. Biology terms work the same way.

A civilized human can still use its natural senses and
physical abilities to determine the extent to which it is
a meat eater. A human can go out in the woods and see how
hard it is to catch wildlife, compared to the plentiful
fruit and plant food available. Fish are hard to catch.
Insects and grubs are not that appealing and are hard to
eat in large volumes. Unless the human is extremely hungry and
desperate, animal flesh and parts do not appeal to human
senses. These are senses that can be trusted, as much as
the meat pushers would love to have people think otherwise.

Just because most humans have domesticated and civilized
themselves, does not mean that their senses have suddenly
disappeared. We can still see, hear, smell, taste, think,
imagine, feel, emote, perceive, etc.

Supplements are an obvious intellectual pursuit, and many
persons are lured into this head game. To conclude that
they are not necessary is as simple as observing that pills,
bottles, elixirs, potions, concentrated dried foods,
blenders, compactors, mixers, spoons, tablets, etc., do not
grow on trees or on any other type of plant. Ten million
other simple observations can be made by our senses.

The intellects are very motivated to have people trust
intellect over full senses because money and self glory
can be had if an exspurt is followed by people who are
intellectually programmed to not trust their full senses.
It is very wise to observe that the natural world, the
most healthiest world on earth, follows its full senses
when eating its foods and doesn't depend on intellect or
exspurts.

Civilized humans must of course use their intellects to
get themselves out of unhealthy habits, but their
intellects need to be used to direct themselves to
learning how to follow and trust the full senses
they've been ignoring and abusing for so long.

If a person has been lured intellectually into falling
for the b12 scare, that person can use their same
intellect to realize that b12 is a vitamin of the b
complex, and fruits are especially rich in this complex
of vitamins. In fact, fruit is the richest of all foods,
in vitamins. That is fruit's forte, or strong point.
Fruits are also the most easily digested, absorbed, and
assimilated of all foods. That means that no other food
comes near to fruit's ability to provide vitamins. A
person frightened by the b12 boogey man under the bed
needs to reach for a ripe fruit, not the pill-ow or
bottle. In their shivering, they need to remember not
to overeat at one meal, and to eat the fruit alone,
simply, following the healthy habits of the rest of
the wild, natural world.

B vitamins are energy vitamins and they are used in
sugar and energy metabolism, along with other vitamins.
Glucose is a simple sugar and it is the fuel of the
cells of the human body, like gasoline is to a car
engine. Fruits supply an ideal quantity of simple
sugars (fructose, glucose), served in a liquid form
(fruit is mostly water). This is why fruit is so high
in b vitamins, and other vitamins.

Meats supply proteins and fats. They require lots
of energy to break down and use, while supplying
little energy, but they don't supply enough vitamins
and minerals, let alone sugars, for humans to run
their energy metabolism. Meat eaters have the least
endurance of all civilized eaters. Meat digestion
impairs b12 absorption. B12 is not needed for meat
digestion and use, because meat is not sugar rich
and is not a fuel source for humans. Of course meat
has b12 in it (just like our human flesh does), but
only in very low quantities which were for the use
of the animal the meat used to be a part of.

If one follows the logic of the b12 promoters, the
best source of b12 should be human meat, and taking
that logic even further, the best food for humans
would be humans. There it is. Humans are humanivores.
They all remain super healthy by eating b12 rich
humans (tongue in cheek).

It's interesting how b12 promoters hang on to the idea
that b12 from bacteria in the gut is somehow not
absorbable but b12 from meat is. Meat is made up of
animal cells requiring b12 for metabolism. Bacteria
are simple animal cells requiring b12 for metabolism.
Bacteria in our guts are digested by us just like
animal cells in our guts are digested by us. The b12
intellectualizers do not hold themselves to logic and
sensibility. B12 is used by animal cells, it doesn't
need to get it from animal cells. Animal cells get
their b12 from the foods they are evolved to eat.
Humans get it from fruit, since humans are frugivores
(digest fruit best). Cows get it from grass, since
cows are herbivores (digest grass best).

I don't eat meat. I have eaten meat in the past, long
ago. B12 promoters will make their intellectual claims
that I still have supplies of b12 left from eating meat.
By their logic, I should be running short of cooked
food nutrients any day now too. It's been years since
I've eaten meat and cooked foods. I am boundless in
energy, and I'm very sharp minded and clear headed.
I can and have made 27 mile mountain hikes, on back to
back days. I easily hike 10 to 20 miles each day, days
on end. I feel great, better than ever. My health has
done nothing but improve for the last 17 years on raw
non-animal-product food. If these are signs of b12
shortage, I'm looking forward to having less b12 in me.
Why I have so much energy and sharpness is because the
fruit I eat supplies me with readily and easily
available fuel and nutrients, including most adequate
amounts of the b-vitamin complex, b12 included. I don't
worry a second about b12. It never crosses my mind,
except when I try inform others they don't need to
worry either.

The b12 issue is absurd and flies in the face of
sensibility and rational thinking. I don't know any one
who has more energy than myself, and who eats less meat
or animal products. There are many I know who don't use
animal products while following sensible eating habits
and who have lots of energy, of course.

Vegans are generally cooked and processed food eaters.
Cooked and processed foods are the ingredients for
disease. Vegans (and vegetarians, who are similar in
habits) use harmful meat substitutes like tofu and grains,
take harmful and unnecessary supplements and use
irritating substitute foods. The average vegan/vegetarian
diet is almost as far from a healthy diet as the average
meat eating diet is. The only major difference is meat.
And the average vegan is known to be healthier than the
average meat eater. Meat eaters have the most plentiful
and horrific diseases. Processed grain, which is a staple
of the vegan diet, is probably worse than meat as a human
food, since it is eaten heavily, is an acid causing food
like meat, and depletes the body of its reserves and life
force. Processed grain eating leads to long, slow-building
diseases. Meat eating supports sudden disease onset. Humans
don't have gizzards, one of the requirements for grain
eating, and sensibly are not classified as graminovores.

Raw food vegans are head and shoulders above average
cookie vegans, especially if they eat a lot of fresh,
ripe fruit and juicy vegetables. One cannot group all
vegans together, just as one cannot put all humans in
one pot.

There exists a natural and normal diet and behaviour
that brings the human species pure health, as is the
case for each living species. To the extent that a
human doesn't follow that diet and behaviour, is the
extent to which that human will suffer poor health.
Harmful habits build dis-ease, healthful habits build
ease.

If a person wants to discover the reason for another's
health issues, they need to look no further than that
person’s disobeyance of natural and normal health
habits required by the human species. Eating tofu is
unhealthy. Meat can be eaten in small quantities,
since humans are able to digest small amounts of
concentrated proteins. Meat is not needed for its b12.
It provides concentrated proteins, and the body has a
need for small amounts of protein (proteins are in all
living things, since protein is fundamental to life).
The same goes for concentrated fats and sugars.
Overeating anything, no matter how good the food is,
is very unhealthy. Eating grain is unhealthy. Eating
irritating weeds is unhealthy. Eating supplements is
unhealthy. Harmful or less-than-good foods can be eaten,
of course, but harm comes in their use. Only our natural
foods, eaten in adequate quantities, supply us with
nothing but nutrition and health.

Health is simple, so simple a baby, whose brain is still
greatly in the development stage (and has no intellect
to speak of), can achieve it, just by following its
full bodily senses. Adults can come to depend on their
full senses again by letting go of their over-dependency
on their intellect, while initially using their
intellects to do so."


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Gosia,

Thanks for your post. The idea of eating insects doesn't appeal to me either. And milk and dairy: Yuck! There was a time when I enjoyed pizza, lasagne, and macaroni and cheese. But now it all reminds me of snot. And I remember my parents making me eat meat. I remember just chewing and chewing and chewing to try to get it to go down. Oh torture. But I liked the more easily chewable meats like chicken or hamburger or tuna. Now it all seems like roadkill!

But:

My daughter-in-law is Japanese, and they eat a lot of raw fish. One time we went swimming in the ocean together and there were little fish swimming around us. She mentioned that they looked like they'd be good to eat!

The more "primitive" natives of Indonesia and New Guinea eat grubs.

I don't know for sure, but I think the B12 shots are for the older meat-eaters who can no longer absorb B12 through their digestion, so they have to take it straight into the blood (for whatever good that does). Possibly, taking it through a shot could produce a rush without any additional stimulant, but it doesn't address why people who SWALLOW B12 supplements lose their deficiency symptoms. Have you heard of people taking B12 orally that get a rush?

The idea of fasting though does appeal to me. If there is enough B12 in some vegan foods (most likely the algaes), then maybe fasting might be able to help someone renew their ability to absorb and utilize the smaller amounts. It could be that when a vegan begins to show deficiency symptoms, it might have to do with an inability to produce enough of some other enzyme in the body that is needed to take in the B12. That could happen for any number of reasons, some serious illness or whatever. Maybe fasting can help bring the body back to a state where the necessary enzyme is again being produced. Or maybe it's the B12 itself that the body is able to produce after fasting. Anyway, I'm open to that, and I might look around to see what I can find on it.

Thanks again. Have a nice day.

Best wishes, -Ally

The evidence please, the evidence, 50 years of vegeterianism, where are the centenarians or close to it?

Hi djatchie,

Well, maybe it's up to us. . I'm shooting for 120, and I plan on doing marathons (at least walking them) into my 90s. I'll never get that old sitting around playing with this computer though!!!!! .

Oh, and Scott Nearing died the day after he turned 100 I believe.

Best wishes, -Ally



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2006 04:47AM by Ally.

Speaking of insects... I have a nephew who LOVES eating lady bugs--much to the dismay of his mother. He crawls through her garden and takes them off the plants, and pops them in his mouth. Not sure if that means anything, but I think it's hilarious

Good boy. That is one case to disprove that human do not like to eat insects.

Definitely, it is up to us and up to the next generation. Wish you luck.

Gosia


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Interesting long discussion... I just popped in to correct an error at the beginning of the thread. Ann was not 90, but less than 85. Might as well not let misinformation lie. Next thing we know, she'll be a legendary 99...

so why did ole doc walker live to about 132? and died from a riding accedent, my mother knew a close friend of his last wife and they determined his approximate age from things he'd said, (because when he was old he wouldn't tell his age cuz nobody'd believe him, and he was born before birth records were kept.) and our neighbor's son lived near him when he died. he must have been fit enough to be out riding a horse. I figure theres no telling how old he'd have lived if it wern't for the accedent. he might still have been alive, and he'd have been close to 150 now.
I think there's a lot more to long life and perfect health than just raw food, have to consider the whole lifestyle, chemical exposure, food quality, stress, etc. I see it as a bit difficult to arange a perfect lifestyle. all i can do is aim in that direction.