Here is a follow up post based on a recent thread on Hypoglycemia that I feel needs to be addressed. I apologize for not having the time to clean it up for it is quit long, but it’s still a good read nonetheless. The most important part is the PS at the end where I included a bunch of great quotes on: Hunger VS Appetite or Cravings

Peace and Love……….John

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Hunger VS Appetite or Cravings
John Rose (---.244.116.229.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 04-16-02 18:36

Hi Jenny,

Here are a few posts between me and MichelleG that I think you might find interesting and some other good quotes on Hunger VS Appetite or Cravings.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Hunger VS Appetite
John Rose (---.HSTN.splitrock.net)
Date: 05-20-01 20:10

Hi Michelle,

I've been meaning to post this message for you for some time now, and I've always been reluctant because of the last sentence. But then when I read it today, I noticed that it starts off with the word "Often", so please don't look at it like I did for so long. Anyway here it is:

"It is a false appetite that manifests itself by morbid irritation, gnawing in the stomach, pain, the feeling of weakness, and various emotionally rooted discomforts. The dissimilarities between such irritations and a true sense of hunger are quite sharp, the average person tied to the habit of eating at all hours of the day and night rarely permits himself to become hungry and consequently mistakes these morbid sensations for a valid call for food. As eating commonly relieves symptoms of distress, the individual becomes convinced that food was just the thing needed. Often it is a kind of eating binge; the individual eats to cover up psychological miseries, as the drunkard drinks to drown his." -Herbert Shelton, p. 32 "Fasting Can Save Your Life"

My point is that I think that it would be best for you, as it would be for everyone, to not eat so frequently. In other words, I don't think that you are allowing enough time between your meals to allow your food to be digested properly, and that this is perpetuating your continued "gnawing in the stomach" or "false appetite."

Peace and Love....................John
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
re: migraines
MichelleG (209.213.227.---)
Date: 05-30-01 18:40

Hi Marcia.

I wanted to comment on your migraines, only because I have also suffered from them for years, and never found any relief from them (even on a raw food diet) until recently. The change? It sounds strange, and I'm not even sure if this is the real reason my migraines have stopped, but... I recently changed my eating habits from snacking all day long to eating "three squares", and I haven't had a migraine since (knock on wood!).

As a matter of fact, my migraines had been getting quite bad--and I was afraid it was BECAUSE of my raw food diet. Within the last two or three months their frequency had increased from about two per month to almost two per WEEK. The migraines were seriously infringing upon my life, and I was beginning to think I was going to have to seek out some serious drugs to deal with them (something I didn't want to do).

It was John Rose who suggested I leave more time between my meals (maybe you read the posts), and now I only eat three times per day--breakfast, lunch and dinner. I leave at LEAST four hours (often 5 or 6) between meals, and I eat until I'm full at each meal (right now I'm trying to find the right balance between eating enough calories to nourish my body well, and not overeating). Mornings are sometimes hard (dealing with hunger pangs in the late morning)... but other than that I feel fantastic (not deprived), and better yet--no headaches!

Just thought I would share,

M.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
positive results eating "three squares" as opposed to "grazing"
MichelleG (---.odyssey.on.ca)
Date: 06-03-01 19:18

A couple of weeks ago I decided to experiment with John Rose's suggestion to eat less frequently. It's now been two weeks that I've been eating three (occasionally four) large meals per day, leaving at least 4 hours between each meal.

I have to admit, it seems to be a wonderful success.

In a recent post I told someone that eating this way seems to have helped my migraines, and this has been the biggest improvement I've seen. Before, when I ate constantly (every 1/2 hour to hour) all day long, I was dismayed to realize that the frequency of my migraines had substantially increased. Before I went raw (back at the end of December), I might get a migraine once or twice a month; by March of this year, I was getting a least one per week, and often more. I had no idea what caused the change, and I thought of a lot of possibilities, including the environments I worked in (particular clients' homes). I finally started to wonder if my raw diet was causing the headaches, but I didn't want to think about that possibility. I had seen so many other wonderful improvements on raw; I didn't want to believe that there could be something so seriously wrong with the raw food diet that it would cause my migraines.

Since switching from grazing to eating three meals a day, I have not had a single headache. This blows my mind. For the first week, I kept waiting for a migraine to hit; I was hyper-aware of any physical symptoms that might indicate a migraine was being triggered. Whenever I found myself in situations that had triggered migraines in the recent past (homes with strong air fresheners; rooms with a stale or smoky smell; going a long time (over 5 hours) without eating; not drinking lots of water), I would wait nervously to see if I was, indeed, going to get a headache. Never did.

As I said, this blew my mind. You have to understand that my migraines had become a severe impediment to enjoying my life; every time a migraine hit (usually in the early afternoon) I only had a couple more hours where I was functional, and after that the pain and nausea were so severe that the only thing I could do was retire to my bed and sleep it off. Having two or three migraines a week was cramping my style, big-time... and I was also very worried about it. I was afraid I was going to have to go to my doctor and get some serious pain relievers (which I did not want to do--I hate to even take aspirin).

So it's been two whole weeks, no migraines, and I'm happy. I don't know why eating this way should make such a difference, but there's nothing much else that I've changed during this same period--with the exception, perhaps, of eating about twice the amount of leafy greens than I had been.

Other than the migraine thing, I haven't noticed any huge changes in how I feel. I still feel as great as I always have on raw. I was afraid, the first few days, that I wouldn't be able to handle going so long without food; mornings are probably still the worst, because I start to feel my stomach gnawing about 2 hours after I eat, but I have no problem waiting to eat my lunch until at least four hours in total have passed since I ate breakfast. I don't feel weaker or light-headed during this period, either. Just gnawing stomach. Between lunch and supper is easier--I don't seem to feel hungry until at least 4 hours have passed after eating lunch.

One of the biggest problems I had in the beginning was eating too much at my three daily meals--especially in the morning. I would eat until I was stuffed--until I was even feeling physical distress--but I've pretty much worked out the amounts of food that I can eat now without causing indigestion. I eat A LOT, though... (although the calorie amounts are not huge--maybe 2000-2300 per day). I'm still not exactly happy with the large amounts of fruit that I'm eating, but I'm slowly whittling it down. Problem is, I really LOVE fruit...

Here's what I ate today; it's pretty typical of my daily intake now:

breakfast:
2 stalks celery
1/2 English cucumber
1/2 canteloupe
1 avocado (I only eat 3 or 4 per week)
1 mango
1 oz. pecans
8 dates 8 dried apricots

lunch:
1/2 head romaine
3 oz. of some other greens, or greens mixture (today it was spinach and endive; other favorites are kale and collards)
4 plum tomatoes
1/2 large beet
1 oz. ground sesame seeds
1 clove garlic
juice of 1 lime
1 carrot
1 orange
6 dried figs 10 oz. grapes

supper:
1/2 head romaine
3 oz. other greens
4 plum tomatoes
1 oz. ground sesame seeds
1 oz. ground flax seeds
juice 1 lime
2 carrots
1/2 zucchini
1/2 oz. brazil nuts
1/2 oz. walnuts
1 orange
1 thick slice watermelon (whole round)

Lunch and supper are both salads, with dressings made in the food processor from the tomatoes and the sundry seeds and vegetables. I usually prepare my whole day's greens in the morning (on weekdays when I'm working) so that preparation time is not so long at suppertime. I weigh the nuts every day, because otherwise I would eat too many of them (they're a favorite food). If I have eaten supper early enough (before 5pm), I'll have another meal--a snack, really--after 9pm--usually fruit, often a smoothie or "ice cream" made with bananas and frozen fruit in the food processor. Otherwise, supper is my last food of the day (and really, I don't feel at all hungry after that anyway).

When I'm working, I drink one or two litres of water throughout the day (not with meals, but between them). On weekends I usually only remember to drink water first thing in the morning, before breakfast.

Above all, I'd really like to thank John Rose for his suggestion. For whatever reason, it seems to be working well for me.

M.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Love........John

PS Here are some other good quotes on: Hunger VS Appetite or Cravings

"Instead of being eaten when we are physically hungry, food is now consumed to satisfy artificial cravings generated by a brain that isn’t working right and whose receptor sites beg for synthetic stimulation from chemicals. We eat, but we’re never satisfied. We’re full, but aren’t contented." -Carol Simontacchi - "The Crazy Makers"

"Another common reason for lack of adherence to a raw food diet is hunger. This becomes an issue when insufficient quantities of fruit are consumed. The human stomach is designed with elastic qualities enabling it to expand and accommodate large quantities of high water content foods at a meal. Due to the lifelong habit of eating concentrated foods that are very low in water content, most people's stomachs have lost their elasticity. This results in them only being able to consume a small quantity of fruit at any one time, leaving them hungry soon afterwards. Part of the transition to a raw food diet includes putting the stomach on a flexibility training programme to regain the full extent of its natural elasticity! Gradually increase the quantity of fruit consumed at each sitting until you can proudly, and comfortably, boast an expanded tummy after each meal." -Rozalind Gruben

"The truth is that hunger is a normal, not an abnormal, sensation and all normal sensations are pleasant. It is an error to think of hunger in the terms of symptoms of disease, just as it would be to think of thirst, or any other of the body’s normal desires, as painful or uncomfortable. Normal hunger is indicated by a general bodily condition--a universal call for food--which is localized, so far as localization takes place, in the mouth, nose and throat, just as is the sense of thirst. There is no "hunger pangs" associated with genuine hunger; there is only a pleasant sensation in the nose, mouth and throat and a watering of the mouth. The hungry person is conscious of a desire for food, not of pain or irritation.

It is a false appetite that manifests itself by morbid irritation, gnawing in the stomach, pain, the feeling of weakness, and various emotionally rooted discomforts. The dissimilarities between such irritations and a true sense of hunger are quite sharp, the average person tied to the habit of eating at all hours of the day and night rarely permits himself to become hungry and consequently mistakes these morbid sensations for a valid call for food. As eating commonly relieves symptoms of distress, the individual becomes convinced that food was just the thing needed. Often it is a kind of eating binge; the individual eats to cover up psychological miseries, as the drunkard drinks to drown his." Herbert Shelton, "Fasting Can Save Your Life" p. 32

"The statement sometimes heard that hunger ceases on the third day of the fast implies that true hunger is present during the first two days of the fast. This is usually not true. It is gastric irritation that ceases on the second, third or fourth day of the fast." Herbert Shelton, "Fasting Can Save Your Life" p. 32

"The presence of normal hunger is regarded as one of the signs of health, while its absence is a symptom of disease. For us to accept this as a reliable criterion of the state of the body, however, it is necessary for us to recognize that there may be present, in disease, a fictional desire for food that is commonly mistaken for hunger. Herbert Shelton, "Fasting For Renewal of Life" p. 86

In our present consideration of hunger we shall discuss:
1. Normal demand for food, genuine hunger.
2. Fictional desire for food, a morbid craving.
3. Absence of desire for food, absence of hunger. "FFROL" p. 87

...when the well man goes without food he gets hungry before he gets weak; when the sick man goes without food, he gets weak before he gets hungry. "FFROL" p. 87

One way to determine real from fictional hunger is to think of the time that has elapsed since the last meal. It is not possible to be "hungry all the time."

If one desires to eat while the stomach is still busy digesting the last meal, one is certainly not hungry. If the last meal was a heavy one, one is not likely to be genuinely hungry for several hours. "FFROL" pp. 87-88

The most important feature of genuine hunger is comfort. The hungry man has no pain, no gnawing feeling in his stomach, he suffers no "hunger pangs," he is not weak and he has no headache. If any of these symptoms are present, one should suspect that the hunger is spurious. If he does not get to eat at once, he does not become weak. If weakness follows upon delay in eating, this is a sure sign that "addiction" and not hunger is troubling him. If the weakness is relieved by eating, this is but added evidence that it is addiction.

An individual with normal nutrition can omit a meal or more at any time without ill-feeling or loss of strength. If discomfort follows missing a meal, this is the surest evidence that the individual is in need of a fast and a change of eating practices. Genuine hunger (a normal demand for food) is never accompanied by any disagreeable feelings whatever. There is no pain, no distress, no weakness--real or stimulated--no gnawing in the stomach. The demand for food is not felt in the stomach, and we are not aware that we have a stomach. an awareness of organs is a sure sign of disease." FFROL" p. 88

There are great numbers of people who will assure you that they are hungry before every meal and that if a meal is delayed for a single hour they will grow faint and languid. They often describe pains and discomforts in the abdominal region and some of them say that they suffer with headache. Even physiologists have accepted the popular notion that hunger is a disagreeable sensation, one verging on actual suffering. These symptoms are strikingly like those manifested when a drug addict misses his accustomed dose to which indications has been given the name, withdrawal symptoms. Dr. Page called these "hunger symptoms" a species of "poison-hunger," thus identifying them with addiction.

Observations reveal that these "poison-hunger" symptoms are most marked in heavy eaters of highly seasoned viands. The more one is addicted to salt, condiments, coffee, tea, etc., the more severe are these symptoms. The man who eats simple fare escapes them entirely. We also know that these sensations are likely to be most severe in the diseased.

Dr. Susanna W. Dodds insisted that "The sense of all-goneness in these cases is not from a lack of nutrient material, but owing to the absence of the habitual stimulus." "No person," wrote Dr. Chas E. Page, "feels faint upon passing a meal, or has a gnawing stomach, except it be occasioned by an irritated and unduly congested state of that organ. It is a sure proof of dyspepsia. Strictly speaking, the term is a synonym for indigestion." Dr. Page well says, "A craving appetite should be treated as a morbid symptom, and should weigh in favor of abstinence." "FFROL" p. 89

The "hunger" of the poorly nourished person is seldom genuine. It is more often of the same nature as those symptoms of the drug addict who is deprived of his drug that are erroneously called withdrawal symptoms. They are such symptoms as gastric distress, pains in the stomach region, a gnawing in the stomach, weakness, headache, etc. "Hunger pangs" would seem to be cramps and these are certainly abnormal. Normal muscular contractions, even if vigorous, are not painful. On the contrary they tend to be pleasurable. Hunger is not a pathological state and is not manifested by symptoms of disease. "FFROL" p. 90

We now know that hunger is felt in the mouth, throat and nose, and to some exrent, in the whole body. "FFROL" p. 91

The depraved stomach, he (Graham) held, its integrity impaired by previous abuse, may give rise to sensations that are mistaken for hunger, but which are, in reality, demands for irritation or stimulation. "FFROL" p. 91

This alleged demand for food is more properly termed a "perverted appetite." ...The food addict is in the same boat with the drug addict and suffers similar "withdrawal symptoms" when he does not receive his accustomed meal.

Much of this supposed demand for food is a craving for coffee, salt, pepper, or other irritant and poison to which the stomach has become accustomed. Much of it is simply irritation of the digestive tract resulting from overeating, wrong eating and eating of stimulating foods. A toxic state of the digestive tract, resulting from indigestion, can set up symptoms galore that are mistaken for hunger. Although true hunger is never manifest in the stomach, always in the nose, mouth and throat, it is common to mistake distress in the region of the stomach for hunger.

What I have just said should be interpreted to mean that the morbid symptoms that are commonly mistaken for hunger are symptoms of food poisoning. "FFROL" p. 92

While it is true that the presence of a desire for food is not always a sign of health (this is so, because the demand for food is not genuine) it is true that when hunger is lacking for any great length of time, this manifests a lack of health. One of the first symptoms of acute disease is a suspension of the demand for food. It is a signal that rest of the digestive machinery is needed, a warning that no food is wanted and that, if taken, the nutriment will not be digested and assimilated. ...

If the acutely ill person, the person with severe inflammation, severe pain anywhere in the body, discomfort in the abdomen, etc., eats, the food decomposes in the digestive tract. If it is not thrown out by vomiting or hurried away by diarrhea, it remains in the stomach and intestine to poison and irritate the invalid, increasing both his discomfort and his danger. Feeding should not be resumed in these cases until at least twenty-four hours after all acute symptoms have subsided.

In chronic disease there is a frequent complaint: "I have lost my appetite." It is complained that "nothing tastes good," "I have to force myself to eat." What a lot of suffering these people could avoid if they refrain from eating until they get hungry! This rule is also good for the chronic sufferer who is "hungry all the time." "FFROL" p. 93

Indeed, genuine hunger is such a delightful sensation that it is worth going on a fast merely for the pleasure of experiencing it. Herbert Shelton, "Fasting For Renewal of Life" p.95

It is a spurious hunger, the only appeal for food a great number of people have ever known, since overfeeding, frequent feeding by the clock, and between-meal eating were started in infancy and continued throughout their lives. They are deceived by it and are honest in believing they are hungry. They remember a certain pleasure of taste and the sense of appropriating food to themselves and call it hunger, eat until food palls upon the taste, and in the course of two to six hours, whether agreeably occupied or not, begin to think of the pleasures of eating again, and consider themselves hungry." Herbert Shelton, "Fasting For Renewal of Life" p. 96

From: Dr. Doug Graham (DrGraham.vegsource.com)
Subject: Re: Can I have your speedy metabolism? (nt)
Date: January 9, 2002 at 1:45 am PST

In Reply to: posted by Atheria on January 8, 2002 at 5:10 pm:

I agree with the original premise, hunger is a mouth sensation, as is thirst.
Empty or churning stomach does not equate with hunger.
True hunger is when ANY food looks appealing.
True hunger is when plain lettuce tastes great, or celery.
True hunger happens way after the stomach empties.
Appetite is the nice word for addiction. It is specific. Hunger is nonspecific, you just want something to eat.
Symptoms of nausea, dizziness, weakness, etc are all signs of sugar or other metabolic imbalances that need to be corrected, not suppressed via more eating.
IMO it is better to correct a problem than to supplement or suppress it.
It took many years for me to learn about hunger. I too used to eat constantly, at least if I was awake. Now, two meals a day are totally sufficient, with no snacking in between, ever. If I am being really physically active, I will go to three meals.
Hope this helps,
Dr D
All raw, all the time, count on it.
[www.vegsource.com]