I came across this again today, which has to be the most misquoted vitamin B12 quote of recent time.

"According to a large Tufts university study as many as 40% of Americans have a b12 deficiency."

What actually was said in the study was that "Nearly two-fifths of the U.S. population may be flirting with marginal vitamin B12 status if the population of Framingham, Mass., is any indication."

We first have to look at the criteria of the study, the first big factor is that they only used one state/area rather than multiple different states over the US. One area is no indication that a whole country is going to be the same.

The second is that they only tested a mere 3000 people from that one state.

It is a skill in itself to be able to properly interpret medical studies and the mis-quotation above shows you how easily studies can be mis-interpreted.

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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2012 01:05PM by powerlifer.

I would think with the amount of meat consumed in the SAD diet,b12 would be very abundant.

eaglefly Wrote:
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> I would think with the amount of meat consumed in
> the SAD diet,b12 would be very abundant.

Its not really abudant as its made out to be, B12 deficiency from the large amount of studies ive researched is still predominatly and largely a vegan problem. Not that it doesn't happen in meat eaters just that when it does it is usually due to an absorption problem such as lack of intrinsic factor, where as with vegans it is usually due to lack of dietary intake. Vegans tend to have lower risk of digestive disorders so there will be lower amounts of those suffering from absorption related B12 issues, but it is still a risk due to stomach acid lowering as we age and other factors which will happen if you eat meat or are a vegan either way.

Which is why these absorption related diseases/problems tend to occur as we age.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2012 01:14PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer,

The Framingham study is well regarded, and extrapolations from it, though not usually declared as gospel, are generally conservative. This:

Quote

Nearly two-fifths of the U.S. population may be flirting with marginal vitamin B12 status if the population of Framingham, Mass., is any indication.

is actually pretty noncommittal; note the "may" and "if".

That a variety of subjects in the study--a cross section population of typical Americans--seemed to show a possible propensity for a nutrient deficiency means that this is something for clinicians to be aware of. So, for example, since hearing about the study, my doctor regularily asks for B12 tests in the standard blood work of his patients[not just the vegetarians], where he didn't before, necessarily. This is an improvement.

It doesn't really matter whether B12 is an intake or an uptake problem; if the extrapolation of this part of the study reminds doctors that B12 is important and that it can be depleted--it is a mistake to assume doctors remember this--then this is a positive step. The more doctors are aware of potentialities for disorders that previously were not considered, the more competent their treatment of patients will be. That's a good thing!

The study wasn't what i was critiquing tamukha, the study i thought was good although limited in that it only showed the results of 3000 individuals from one area. Even getting a variety of different people doesn't help much when you have them all from the same state. But yeah its food for thought and like i say it wasn't the study i was critiquing.

What i was critiquing was this quote that seems to be getting spread around due to mis-interpretation of the study. The study in no way concludes that 40% of Americans are b12 deficient.

B12 deficiency can be often easily spotted on a routine blood work and i would say its not one of the more common misdiagnosed or missed disorders from what ive read. Like i say from the research ive seen to date the most common issue with vegans and b12 deficiency is an intake problem so the safe bet is to just supplement with vitamin B12 now and again if 100% vegan.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2012 02:13PM by powerlifer.

Would mass gluten consumption and the resultant damage to intestinal villi have something to do with this?

HeavenHands Wrote:
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> Would mass gluten consumption and the resultant
> damage to intestinal villi have something to do
> with this?

Definitley substantially increase the risk of related malabsorption issues in my opinion. Good point HH.

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It did in my case, HH!

I would never promote meat eating on this board, but I do think that immediately blaming meat for health problems is a tad short-sighted. As far as I can see, most diet-related health problems begin with gluten, refined sugar, table salt, hfcs, trans-fats, and the processed foods that contain all of these bad actors and many more. Most people would be fine living on a balanced-diet taken from a whole foods menu devoid of all that garbage. Cancer rates would plummet as soon as people took a farm to table approach to diet. I'm sorry for saying this. Veganism is such a beautiful idea and I'm 100% on board with the moral issue. However, turning meat into the health culprit is inaccurate.

I thought there was actually a higher incidence per capita in meat-eaters than vegetarians for B12 deficiency? Whether from malabsorption or lack of intake, I'm not sure. I will have to see if I can find that source again...

I'm sure that there's more ill-health among meat eaters than there is among vegans and vegetarians, no doubt, but it's not because of the meat. It's because meat eaters are more likely to follow an unhealthy lifestyle while consuming all manner of junk. Vegans and vegetarians are much more health conscious. They exercise, eat less processed foods, are less likely to eat fast-food, less likely to smoke, drink, use drugs, more likely to employ many different health strategies, etc. To simply write off health disparities to whether or not a person eats meat strikes me as not seeing the whole picture.

As I said before, not advocating for meat. Advocating for truth.

phantom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought there was actually a higher incidence
> per capita in meat-eaters than vegetarians for B12
> deficiency? Whether from malabsorption or lack of
> intake, I'm not sure. I will have to see if I can
> find that source again...

There are also numerous times more meat eaters than vegetarians but what the majority of studies show in relation that it is a more common vegetarian and vegan problem, mostly what i believe to be down to nothing more than a lack of dietary intake, which is easily remedied by B12 supplementation if you want to stay vegan of course.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Doesn't that just make sense though? That more people who are taking in a dietary source of B12 would have adequate levels than those who aren't? That aside from that there would be a balanced number of people who have absorption issues regardless of whether meat eaters or not? That could certainly be affected by the dietary inclusion of gluten and other things that inhibit proper functioning of the digestive system but the fact remains, if you're not taking any in, you're simply not Getting Any At All.

Somebody tell me again about how none of us need or get any good from supplementation... lol.

Whilst the trend years ago was that these type of absorbtion disorders were more prevalent in the eldery, now the younger generations have increased risk of these type of issues.

Probably because the modern diet for many is filled with processed crap and junk food.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

The soil is problematic, too.

OKAY folks.................
Firstly, most people eat cooked meat. Cooking food destroys at least half if not WAY more of the b-12. so in fact MOST meat eaters ARE probably b-12 deficient. The study is a great one in the fact that most americans probably eat very similar diets to those 3000 people. people generally eat the same crap everywhere, meat,eggs, cheese, bread, cereal, milk, canned veggies.
nobody tends to notice b-12 deficiency in meat eaters because few are getting tests done to see. In the cooked vegan world it is popular to test, because it is so common to be deficient especially due to the fact that they cook out most of the b vitamins.
HEAVENHANDS, meat actually DOES deserve a horrible name......in the movie FORKS OVER KNIVES, it talks about the China Study, where it is basically proven that if you get your dietary protein from animal sources, you are putting your body at extreme risk and are very likely to meet your demise through some degenerative disease based around meat eating. Meat and milk consumption increase our risk of cancer MASSIVELY! I highly recommend that movie as it helps clear up misconceptions about why to be vegan. it is a movie everyone needs to see!
I will even send you a copy if you have no way to get it!! just private message me!
If we fast and do colonic type cleansing to remove years of gluten and meat fiber and other cloggage from our intestines, i believe that we c

B12 is actually not heat reactive, I thought it was but research shows it is not.
It's easy to supplement. Really. I would not go without it myself, as far as I can tell there is no creature in the wild that goes without a dietary source of B12.

I've been raw for four, but vegan for nearly seven years, and my B12 was fine a month ago as per blood tests. I do consume lots of fermented foods, don't wash garden/organics, eat seaweeds and yeast (all RUMORED sources of B12).

One of those sources should have hit the nail on the head because you can start showing signs of deficiency in just three years...

Cyanocobalamine can cause blindness, and there are nasty side effects associated with it, so if you do choose to supplement, make sure you ALWAYS get the methylcobalamine.

It would have been interesting to know if I was deficient prior to being vegan/raw vegan or not, and how changing my diet/lifestyle has impacted me.

Supplementation just doesn't make sense to me, when the body is in optimal condition (if you are correcting an imbalance created by lifestyle/environment, I think it's different). Just, if you're healthy and eating a natural diet, there has to be SOME way nature provides, otherwise we would have all been showing up with the same problems for millions of years? Just my thoughts. I've been gambling my life with them so far and it's been working really well, I wish we knew more about the subject.

I'd love to know about people who have restored the intrinsic factor.

People need to remember that b12 comes from bacteria, and is not something that is intrinsic in animal products, as animals do not produce b12 themselves. Who is to say whether the b12 found in animal products was there when the animal was alive, or is from the decomposition of the animal product, with the bacteria eating and proliferating on dead flesh itself.

As phantom said, fermented or cultured foods can be a great source of bacteria, which has the possibility of b12. The lactobacillus family, which is present in fermented foods (such as sauerkraut or kimchi) produces b12. Also bacillus subtilis, which is used to make natto, produces b12. And purple non sulfur bacteria, which can be found in EM (effective microorganisms), create b12. 1 tsp of EM-X (an EM product) has about 2.6 mcg B12, which is just above the recommended daily allowance for b12.

For 10 years I didn't supplement at all on a raw vegan diet and I felt fine. I started to take EM because I wanted to experience its subtle energy nature, and as a side effect I was getting a lot of b12 in my daily intake. In my typical salad dressing I'll use a half cup of EM.

If you don't want to take a pill, and don't want to take fermented foods, and don't want to take EM, you can use EM (try SCD BioAg) to inoculate your garden soil, and this will create b12 in your soil as well as prevent molds and pathogenic bacteria, so your vegetables from the garden will be rich in b12.

Totally intrigued by the EM, will have to try it! Thanks again, Prana! What other "energy effects" are you talking about? :O

phantom, EM (also called Syntropic Antioxidative Microbes Type 4) has a subtle energy that can be felt by sensitive people just by holding a bottle of the stuff. In the body, for me, it seems to put me into a good mood, and makes me more impervious to things that might put a person in a bad mood. People have called this energy a coherent energy, one that is anti-entropic, or in some sense beneficial to living things. It is theorized that these microbes, when they eat various minerals, will put those minerals into an energetic state, called a monoatomic state/m-state/ormus state. This microbes are also great at devouring toxic chemicals and organic matter and converting them into nutrients.

For more information, check out my two posts in this thread called Fruit and Restoring Intestinal Balance.

Thanks for mentioning this stuff again, Prana

!!!! Ormus!! =D

I'm on the website now, but it seems a bit vague about how to obtain? Is there a way I can start my own cultures, do you use a supplement, or... do you drink lots of mescal?

Thank you!

Hi phantom,

The food grade product is called Essential Probiotic Health Concentrate ($24.50 for 500ml, $109.50 for a gallon). They have a double fermented food grade product that is super high in antioxidants called Xtra Immunity($61.50 for 500ml). The first product is more for the microbial action, the latter product has the bacteria filtered out, but it has a very powerful healing energy and quality to it.

For the garden and most utility functions, I use BioAg($25 per gallon). Last year I used the BioAg in my garden, and I had excellent produce. I don't have space to make my own compost yet, but my friend uses BioAg to treat their composts, and ferments the compost anaerobically for 2 weeks in a 5 gallon bucket, then buries the compost and in 2 weeks the compost has turn into soil (for a total time of 4 weeks). This makes excellent soil and is much quicker than conventional composting.

For garden and utility purposes, it is possible to buy the mother culture ProBio Balance Plus and make your own utility probiotics with a 1:1:20 ratio of culture:molasses:water and ferment. For human consumption probiotics, the process is long, complicated, and expensive, and easy to get wrong.

As for mescal, I have never tried it. Is this something you like?

Prana..could you give us an ingredient list of what constitutes Ormus..as the info. I've been reading is a little confusing.

Love,
Prism

Prana, have you heard of buried compost? This is where you simply dig a small hole, large enough for your bucket of compost and roughly twice as deep as needed, and bury it in a different spot in your yard each time. If you use a grid pattern there won't be any overlap and it will turn to soil in record time. This can be done in early spring before you put seeds into the ground (though it's a bit hard to dig out holes when the ground is too hard) and just after harvesting when you aren't going to plant another round in that area. You can chop and include plant remnants as well, this adds back much that the plant itself takes from the soil. You won't have year round compost but it's better than nothing.

One other option for limited space is a drum composter on a stand, you can plant low lying plants that prefer partial shade beneath so you aren't sacrificing any growing area. Those are interesting too because there's a crank on the side to turn the barrel and mix the compost, Much easier than turing it with a shovel or pitchfork!

Hi coco,

I live in an apartment, and my garden is in pots on the balcony. I've heard of that first technique you mentioned, and I plan to use it or something like it when I have real ground to bury the compost in. But I am not wasting my current compost. I give the citrus compost to one friend, and all my other compost to another, so nothing is getting wasted.

I have finally gotten to the point where I am ready to move out of my apartment and move into a house. I am looking at buying a fixer for cheap, and fixing it up to live in.

Ah, very cool. Save some of those citrus peels to make household cleaner (search for the fermented recipe, makes an enzyme cleaner that's supposedly amazing).

Sometimes I take our compost out to the local nature trail. I'm pretty sure it mostly gets eaten up but critters but the onion skins and orange peels decompose at least, lol.

Prism,

The energy of the SAM Type 4 microbes is what is called ormus like. David Hudson came up the the term ORMEs, which meant "Orbitally-Rearranged Monatomic Elements". This term later morphed into ormus, but what it is are various metal and other elements that are in a monoatomic state, that is, it is not a solid like a piece of metal or stone, and not a gas where each molecule is by itself, but in a dissolved state, often suspended in a liquid or existing as a powder.

When minerals and other elements are in this ormus state, or monoatomic state, they are in an energetic state that can be felt, and the minerals are in a highly absorbable state by living things, both plants and animals. When the EM microbes eat rock powders and the minerals that are abundant in molasses, these minerals go into this high energy state and become super absorbable.

The most consistent probiotics other than fermented foods that i have seen to date are VLS3, LB17 Fermented Paste and Nature Biotics Soil Based Organism.

Prebiotics are more important though.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]