I realize that we have been over this ground before. But, I wanted to just vett this idea and see what you thought.

Can testing with a "somewhat" reliable vegan source of B-12 be used in the place of supplements?

Specifically, chlorella. Some anecodotes on line of raw vegans and other vegans documenting reduced MMA levels. Good evidence that active B-12 rather than the analogues are in chlorella (unlike spirulina) and some limited evidence that chlorella has helped pregnant women in Japan fight edema, anemia and gestational hypertension.

Jack Norris, a vegan RD has held a conservative line about the need for supplements but has also been tremendously helpful and transparent on existing evidence. On a response to "Flaming Vegan" back in June, Jack reiterated his position that we need supplements. I use one today but am reconsidering testing as an alternative if the vegan B-12 source works (i.e., reduces MMA, methyl malonic acid).

His post is here. [jacknorrisrd.com]

My question in the comments section is reproduced below:

Jack,

As always, thanks for all you do. I just wonder about the testing alternative. Let's suppose I'm a vegan who takes chlorella and says "I don't like supplements" and there are studies that say chlorella has plenty of active B-12. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] Moreover the anecdotes in this thread [www.veganforum.com] plus the one case of someone you pointed out in UK Vegan Society Trial (2005) shows MMA has been normalized with people eating chlorella (note: that is different than saying chlorella normalized it, I'm splitting hairs here, but I want to be clear.) And then wouldn't it be prudent for someone who hates supplements but wants to be safe just to take an MMA test. Don't need a doctor's order. [www.directlabs.com]

just $120, some money up front but if you know that your body if taking the chlorella and reducing your MMA, you don't have to keep buying the supplements. Over a lifetime, I think that'd be ok. Just an option.

One more thing Jack, could you comment on the 2010 on chlorella reducing edema, anemia and improving the status of pregant women in Japan. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] I realize this has nothing to do with homocysteine but it just seems to me that this study has to be factored in to the total weight of evidence.

As always a fan. Be well.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2012 06:08PM by pborst.

I don't know if chlorella will pan out or not. That's an empirical question. And I don't think it answers a question that doesn't matter to me very much, whether humans evolved as vegans.

What I don't like in the mainstream media is the tired line that B-12 doesn't exist in plant foods only in animal foods and ergo without supplements we are doomed.

I think a better answer starts with "on the basis of existing evidence".... however, there are some plant sources that are worthy of consideration... e.g. chlorella.

It just seems like traditional dieticians and doctors just repeat broken record about there not being B-12 in plant stuff instead of asking the question.

I agree with supplementing to a point. And at the same time, I like to have options, not just for B-12 but for Vitamin D, zinc, iodine and Omega 3s.

I think most if not all of raw vegan and vegan texts either "assume" B-12 supplementation or reject it entirely. I'd like to explore the middle ground.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2012 06:23PM by pborst.

As I understand it, B12 is made from bacteria and Cobalt. If the soil has Cobalt, then it would be possible to get B12 from plants.

agreed. Not a lot of profit in it though ....so... we are on our own. But perhaps working together we can shine a light.

Someone named Korn over on the veganforum.com has tried to do just that. [www.veganforum.com]

Not done with it yet, but interesting. Panchito, there is a subforum over there on B-12 in plants. Got a sticky about chlorella. Reading now.

Paul

update: looks like purple laver has bona fide B-12 too. No MMA results though. [www.veganforum.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2012 07:13PM by pborst.

gotta love free enterprise. [www.privatemdlabs.com] An MMA test from a Directlabs.com competitor for $52.49 instead of $120.... a $68 savings.

It's a market folks. If more people demand testing as an alternative and if there is/are foods that keep your MMA levels in check.

Even if you take supplements, doing a check isn't a bad idea once and a while. You won't get it on your physical.

Paul

update: a third quote, $51 something. [www.labsmd.com]

In short, market price is $50+ per test to see if you are in B-12 trouble. That's low enough for a lot of people given the price of supplements, and that's not even considering just because you take it, doesn't mean you are absorbing it. Testing has other purposes besides verifying. Like diagnosing...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2012 08:03PM by pborst.

why not just take supplements? They are cheap, no research involved. Animals not hurt. What's the big deal?

no big deal, just trying to create choices my friend. If you want to continue with supplements, no problem. Yes, they are inexpensive.

where to buy chlorella?

Everywhere online, just google it. A good one is synergy organic chlorella, you can take either powder or tablets. They also do a non-organic version a bit cheaper.

I think chlorella is great, and much better than spirulina - not least because there is no associated risk of accidentally getting a toxin with it. This is what in the end made me drop spirulina as a food supplement, it was a bit of a bummer as I'd bought a bottle before learning about the risk of the toxin! But my friend gave me recipes of face and hair masks with spirilina, so that's were it goes now

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2012 10:58AM by chat.

Chat,

Have you noticed any difference since adding the chlorella?

Kref

Not really - I've only been vegan and raw for a short time, and i haven't done any tests yet! So I guess when I say chlorella is great, I really mean it is great on paper, compared to other wholefood supplements

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

I first heard about it from Brenda Brazier, author of the Thrive Diet. Brendan is like Harley and Tim Van Orden a dedicated vegan athlete. Brendan's specialty seems to be how to recover from an athletic event.

Chlorella has been kicked around a bit by Michael Greger and other mainstream vegan doctors. But Chat is right, it's got more science behind it than spirulina without the risk of extra iodine (it's a freshwater algae) or heavy metals.

And to date, according to pborst's post above along with purple laver, it looks like the best vegan whole food option containing B-12... though we are still seeing if it can lower methyl malonic acid. But I'm still skeptical. I think I will just take a vegan supplement until the science comes in.

Kref

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I realize that we have been over this ground
> before. But, I wanted to just vett this idea and
> see what you thought.
>
> Can testing with a "somewhat" reliable vegan
> source of B-12 be used in the place of
> supplements?
>
> Specifically, chlorella. Some anecodotes on line
> of raw vegans and other vegans documenting reduced
> MMA levels. Good evidence that active B-12
> rather than the analogues are in chlorella (unlike
> spirulina) and some limited evidence that
> chlorella has helped pregnant women in Japan fight
> edema, anemia and gestational hypertension.
>

lt is now known that NO vegan food is a reliable source of B12. On many occasions vegan foods have B12 (certain mushrooms, yeast, chlorella, Dulse, sea weeds, E3 live, wheatgrass {sometimes}, etc etc), nut NONE are reliable sources. Many people eat like myself eat most of the B12 foods (chlorella, E3 live, spirulina, kelp, dulse, wakame, arame, nori etc) and take bacteria, but we still remain hopelessly deficient in this nutrient.

Please disregard all the stuff about Chlorella and B12, much of the research would be out of date like with Spirulina. Both foods have now been shown to have high loads of B12 analogues that interfere with B12 absorption. Some smart consumers have forced companies into being honest and changing their labels to stop saying that chlorella is a good source of B12, but most still seem to keep their misleading advertising.

lt is best to take a high quality soil based bacterial supplement for your B12, don't rely on vegan foods because roughly 70% - 80% of people who do will come up deficient eventually...over 100,000 case studies at HHI have proven this beyond a doubt, and over 250,000 case studies at HHI have shown that the best vegan B12 foods are unreliable sources of B12

The Sproutarian Man,

I have read about the test results from Hippocrates, and always keep in mind that they cater to the ill and dying, and that this naturally skews tests in a particular direction.

If only they'd publish their studies for peer review, we might have a more comprehensive hypothesis about B12 and the vegetarian diet . . . maybe someday.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Sproutarian Man,
>
> I have read about the test results from
> Hippocrates, and always keep in mind that they
> cater to the ill and dying, and that this
> naturally skews tests in a particular direction.

Brian has said online that Hippocrates have about half of people who are sick and half of people who are into health. lt's not like the old days where everyone was sick, a decent % go to learn the diet and Hippocrates lifestyle too. So yes, there are still lots of so called healthy people (including myself) who don't get enough B12 from those foods.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 09:02PM by The Sproutarian Man.

chlorella and spirulina are very different, active b-12 is dominant in chlorella where the analogues are dominant in spirulina.

We don't have a lot of data on MMA from the B-12 in chlorella. But chlorella definitely appears to have it. There is one study from 1968 on Jack Norris's site that said the chlorella sample didn't appear to have any. But, that is too long ago and contradicted by several other sites since then.

Paul

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chlorella and spirulina are very different,
Yes they are miles apart.


> the B-12
> in chlorella. But chlorella definitely appears
> to have it.

That's what people always thought, that chlorella had large amounts of the B12 and was a reliable source, but over the last few years that view has changed and many chlorella B12 analogues have been discovered. l believe it to be the case because HHI had to introduce a special B12 supplement when they realised many folks weren't getting the B12 from chlorella and other foods. l never got near enough B12 from chlorella either (despite having 20 tabs a day).