I'm taking a new approach as fruits have made me tired and spacey. I'm going for the more greens and low glycemic fruits. However with the elimination of bannanas as my staple food, and being careful not to overload on nuts and advocado's, I'm getting hungry.

Questions:

How are you getting your calories on a veggie/low-glycemic fruit diet?

What is your staple?

Do you eat any grains? If so, what and how do you prepare them?

What low glycemic fruits do you eat that help to fill you up?


Peace,

Jeff

I don't know how it's possible to have a low fruit/low fat diet without restricting your calories. It'll be interesting to see if anyone has any ideas.

If you want to add any grains, I've been enjoying kamut grains lately. They're tasty and easy to prepare - just soak overnight, drain the next morning, then keep rinsing/draining for a couple of days, let them sprout if you like, or just eat as is. Today I mixed them with tomatoes, parsley, olive oil, lemon juice and a little salt and left them marinating for a while. A bit like a raw stir fry! They're chewy and tasty (:

17 cups of peas is low-fat (10g fat, about 6% of total energy). Lots of chewing though. My kids would refuse, I'm sure.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

Please don't be afraid of fruit. It is our natural food. If you were feeling spacey and tired it was probably due to other issues (detoxing, or too much fat in your diet). Please see the FAQ section on Dr Graham's website www.foodnsport.com and/or read The Raw Secrets by Frederic Patenaude for more info.

Take care,

Audrey
www.rawhealing.com

Check out the audio interviews on this website: [www.patricktimpone.com]

They discuss how to do the low fruit raw vegan diet.

I recommend Dr. David Jubb's books that discuss the low fruit raw vegan diet. Dr. Jubb was a nutritional advisor to Dr. Ann Wigmore

Learn what works for you and go for it....your body will change as time goes on...

It would be a lot easier to do if one used a dehydrator. Fully dehydrated veggies can be reduced to 1/5 of their original size so that amounts to eat are more manageable. One could make vegetable patties with a number of grated root vegetables.

These are some of the more energy-dense vegetables that can be eaten raw to diminish reliance on sweet fruits and fatty foods"

sweet potato
corn
water chestnuts
parsnip
beet
edible pod peas (but not too many)
onion
tomato
zucchini
eggplant
yellow summer squash

Regarding leaves, kale, dandelion greens, and chicory greens tend to be more calorie dense.

It isn't hard for me to get more veggies because

1. my kcal goal is usually around 1500, not 2000.
2. I am not 100% raw but usually incorporate a small amount of cooked beans
3. I do eat a lot of the foods listed above

You can eat eggplant raw? Isn't it bitter?

Shine On-

You will need to eat more fat for calories. Find out if this works for you're metabolism, which could change.

shine on indeed

chilove Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please don't be afraid of fruit. It is our natural
> food. If you were feeling spacey and tired it was
> probably due to other issues (detoxing, or too
> much fat in your diet). Please see the FAQ section
> on Dr Graham's website www.foodnsport.com and/or
> read The Raw Secrets by Frederic Patenaude for
> more info.
>
> Take care,
>
> Audrey
> www.rawhealing.com


Our "natural" food fruits were non hybridized, MUCH less sweet varieties than the ones we find in store shelves now, whch are LOADED with sugar (bananas, certain plums, etc. especially).

Don't pass off a valid point someone has with "it's detox". It's unscientific and simply isn't true most of the time.

You may do well on massive quantities of fruits, but human genetics are too diverse to say it works for everyone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2006 03:26PM by Arvydas.

I am now doing fruit again. It is not having the same spacey effect it did on me, however, I'm not eating tons of high glycemic fruits either - thought lately I have been doing watermelon. The low fruit stint seemed to have helped although now I've moved back to lower fat, more fruit - more natural hygeine approach. I would never eat 40 bananas in a day though. Green smoothies, fruit (non dried) and a big green salad with either an avo, or 2T oil, or olives or nuts for dinner. It's a process. And of course, now that autumn is coming, the body craves heavier things than it did a month ago.

Best of luck. It IS a process which changes.

PG

Hybridization is a natural process, and it in fact hard for farmers to avoid. Just the other day I bought a Baby Crimson watermelon whose flesh was like a Navaho melon. I suspect that the Baby crimson, which normally has a dark red fresh and small crunchy black seed, was pollenated with a Navaho, which has pink fresh and chewy large light brown seeds. The farmer grew both Baby Crimsons and Navahos, and I'm sure the hybridization was not intentional (and in this case wasn't desirable either).

As far as the diversity in human genetics, how come other animals in the same species all tend to eat the same thing? If you take a deer, you don't find ones that are kapha (slow oxidizer) vs pitta(fast oxidizer) vs vata. Animals are opportunistic, and they eat what is available. Same for humans. The thing about the human body is if it is fed only a certain kind of foods, its digestive system adapts to prefer that food. However, if that food becomes unavailable, it is happy to adapt to other human friendly foods, though this make take a bit of time.

As far as the spacey feeling from fruit, I had that when I was eating a high fat diet. It went away as I took fats out of my diet. It was a process, what I consider the process of becoming a raw foodist.

Aren't most fruits low-glycemic?

most fruits are relatively low-glycemic, even bananas... starchy root veggies and grains are higher GI.

fats are a good concentration of calories and long term energy.

You may be spacey, as youre transitioning to raw, or not sleeping enough, or sleeping too much, detoxing, or not getting enough calories... While your insticts are telling you to slow down on the sugar, its good youre listening. You may have mild hypoglycemia. i suggest you work on your kidneys and thyroid. And coconut oil could really help!

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as the diversity in human genetics, how
> come other animals in the same species all tend to
> eat the same thing? If you take a deer, you don't
> find ones that are kapha (slow oxidizer) vs
> pitta(fast oxidizer) vs vata. Animals are
> opportunistic, and they eat what is available.

Have you lived and talked with deers for a period of time long enough to know what they all like to eat as individuals? I don't think so. I'm not suggesting deers can talk, but I'm suggesting that it's mostly arrogance or lack of imagination that assumes things about how animals live, and then assumes there to be one "perfect diet" (raw foodism or anything else) for all other humans.

Comparing humans to animals is always going to be a crapshoot because humans are far more complex than animals generally are.

By the way, deer on different continents eat different things, and have evolved to eat those particular things in particular proportions and particular ways. Just as humans living on many continents also have, though in more complicated ways.

Arvydas, I've sit and watched deer eat for hours. They are opportunitic eaters, and will eat whatever is tasty and available. And when the less tasty stuff is no longer availble, they'll eat the less tasty stuff (like dried grasses).

As for what humans should eat, what kinds of foods are easily obtained with our particular anatomy? If we are in a forest, how hard is it for us to eat a fruit off of a tree, versus eating the seeds of grasses (grains), especially without tools or fire? The animals that are closest to humans genetically are frugivores. A bonobo has 98% of the same DNA as a human, and they eat 90% fruit. In general, when animal has the same physical anatomical characteristics, they eat the same kinds of foods. The digestive system of these primates is indistinguishable from the human digestive system.

ShineOn,

By the way, the amount of sugars that are put into the bloodstream for fresh fruit is much lower than starchy foods like potatoes or bread.

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hybridization is a natural process, and it in fact
> hard for farmers to avoid. Just the other day I
> bought a Baby Crimson watermelon whose flesh was
> like a Navaho melon. I suspect that the Baby
> crimson, which normally has a dark red fresh and
> small crunchy black seed, was pollenated with a
> Navaho, which has pink fresh and chewy large light
> brown seeds. The farmer grew both Baby Crimsons
> and Navahos, and I'm sure the hybridization was
> not intentional (and in this case wasn't desirable
> either).


I should have said that modern fruits have been bred for maximum sugar content and lower fiber content. It's not so much that they've been hybridized, but they've been selectively bred FAR beyond the properties of the wild fruits that bonobos and chimps eat in the wild.

As for what you said about sugars in the blood, I don't believe that fruits release less sugar. Unless you're talking about refined white bread and modern white potatoes, most fruits (except, perhaps, for things like apples, most berries, etc.) have a much greater effect on my blood sugar than unrefined complex carbohydrates like lightly cooked millet or spelt, or even whole grain spelt bread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2006 03:30PM by Arvydas.

Most fuits aren't sweet enough IMO, I still have to eat dates to keep my blood sugar up so I don't fall off the wagon and eat cooked grains. Now I know why raw fooders are always talking about dates.

Lillianswan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most fuits aren't sweet enough IMO, I still have
> to eat dates to keep my blood sugar up so I don't
> fall off the wagon and eat cooked grains. Now I
> know why raw fooders are always talking about
> dates.

Yikes. Are you sure it's because you have low blood sugar? Have you tested your blood glucose level?

Even a really sweet mango can throw my blood sugar off, but lightly cooked grain doesn't.

Probably if your body is not tolerating lots of fruit well then you'll find it easier to metabolize more fat to compensate for the low-calorie vegetables. That's my experience so far anyway. I don't know, maybe after a year or two raw I'll be eating large quantities of fruit but right now that type of diet just doesn't agree, I don't feel good at all on alot of fruit.

Flax seed oil and legumes for me work really well with vegetables. I would recommend trying that. I can't consume lots of nuts or avocadoes either because they'll make me feel sluggish.

Find the right vegetable & fat combo that makes you feel good and stick with that until your body wants something different.

Arvydas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lillianswan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Most fuits aren't sweet enough IMO, I still
> have
> > to eat dates to keep my blood sugar up so I
> don't
> > fall off the wagon and eat cooked grains. Now I
> > know why raw fooders are always talking about
> > dates.
>
> Yikes. Are you sure it's because you have low
> blood sugar? Have you tested your blood glucose
> level?
>
> Even a really sweet mango can throw my blood sugar
> off, but lightly cooked grain doesn't.

Wow, what kind of ailment do you have, it must be worse than diabetes? If you mentioned it I don't remember. I have a relative with diabetes (who doesn't) and she can handle sweets, I found mangos in lots of diabetic recipes. Have you tried talking about this on a diabetic board? They would probably know more.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2006 11:37PM by Lillianswan.

Lillianswan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Arvydas Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lillianswan Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Most fuits aren't sweet enough IMO, I still
> > have
> > > to eat dates to keep my blood sugar up so I
> > don't
> > > fall off the wagon and eat cooked grains. Now
> I
> > > know why raw fooders are always talking about
> > > dates.
> >
> > Yikes. Are you sure it's because you have low
> > blood sugar? Have you tested your blood
> glucose
> > level?
> >
> > Even a really sweet mango can throw my blood
> sugar
> > off, but lightly cooked grain doesn't.
>
> Wow, what kind of ailment do you have, it must be
> worse than diabetes? If you mentioned it I don't
> remember. I have a relative with diabetes (who
> doesn't) and she can handle sweets, I found mangos
> in lots of diabetic recipes. Have you tried
> talking about this on a diabetic board? They would
> probably know more.


I wouldn't say I have an ailment, just a different metabolism (at least nowadays... I had what I would consider hypoglycemia in my younger teen years, which I'm still getting over to some extent).

Arvydas,

Here are some Glycemic Index and Glycemic Loads of common carbohydrates as compared to sweet fruits (bananas, mangos)

A Glycemic Index of 55 is low
A Glycemic Load of 10 is low

food GI, GL
============
rice 86, 37
baked potato 85, 26
wonder bread 71, 10
pasta 64, 27
banana 51, 13
mango 41, 8

Quote

The glycemic index (GI) is a numerical system of measuring how much of a rise in circulating blood sugar a carbohydrate triggers—the higher the number, the greater the blood sugar response. So a low GI food will cause a small rise, while a high GI food will trigger a dramatic spike. A list of carbohydrates with their glycemic values is shown below. A GI is 70 or more is high, a GI of 56 to 69 inclusive is medium, and a GI of 55 or less is low.

The glycemic load (GL) is a relatively new way to assess the impact of carbohydrate consumption that takes the glycemic index into account, but gives a fuller picture than does glycemic index alone. A GI value tells you only how rapidly a particular carbohydrate turns into sugar. It doesn't tell you how much of that carbohydrate is in a serving of a particular food. You need to know both things to understand a food's effect on blood sugar. That is where glycemic load comes in. The carbohydrate in watermelon, for example, has a high GI. But there isn't a lot of it, so watermelon's glycemic load is relatively low. A GL of 20 or more is high, a GL of 11 to 19 inclusive is medium, and a GL of 10 or less is low.

Bryan, that doesn't help because those tables are citing Wonder Bread (which is extremely refined and denatured), modern white potato, pasta (white refined flour), and rice (presumably white rice). Obviously if you compare fruit to a grossly refined product like white Wonder Bread, the fruit will come out on top nutritionally.

All of those are heavily refined and/or tampered with (modern white potatoes have been bred for size and starch content).

I already said that I'm not talking about refined carbohydrates here, I'm talking about lightly cooked millet, quinua, amaranth, maybe some whole grain spelt. These are whole grains with a much higher alkalinity, fiber and mineral value, that traditional cultures have been eating for thousands of years.

Arvydas Wrote:
> I wouldn't say I have an ailment, just a different
> metabolism (at least nowadays... I had what I
> would consider hypoglycemia in my younger teen
> years, which I'm still getting over to some
> extent).

Yes, that would make the raw diet hard, but I'm glad to hear that it seems to be getting better rather than worse!

I thought this might be a nice thread to resuscitate, since all topics seem to be focused on fat VS fruit without alternatives.

To me the whole issue is calories: fat vs. calories: carbs, cites calories to have the same structure and functioning as with more energy draining diets of far less nutrient availability and absorption.


It would be nice to have some discussion on exactly how many calories one needs. I’m reading this graphic novel about Hiroshima from the perspective of the Japanese. I'm not claiming this is in any way accurate history, but the impression is that for the entire period of the war, one occasionally (not daily) had rice, sweet potato, or gruel.

I know that often the pre-WW1 civilizations are cited for their longevity and general health. Isn’t there some truth to the notion that VOLUME and not necessarily carbs vs fats might come into play?

Essentially at some point with fruit, after receiving your nutrients, aren’t you essentially just loading on calories for calories sake?

What about something like carob flour. That’s pretty high calorie/low fat
Or mesquite?

>Essentially at some point with fruit, after receiving your nutrients, aren’t you essentially just loading on calories for calories sake?

This is true with all foods, not just fruit. At some point, we are just taxing our metabolism. Calorie restriction is life extending when nutrient needs are met. Excess calories are a detriment.

The kicker with fruit is that it tends to be less nutrient-dense than leaves. So I really can't see much justification for a diet that omits leaves completely. Granted leaves do not have to be a large part of the diet (that would be impossible for all practical purposes) but it's very difficult with fruit only, or even fruit with modest quantities of nuts and seeds, unless kcal intake and activity levels are much higher.

I am not saying I think you that anyone will die sooner without leaves. But I think it is better to include them, at least in modest quantities. They have been correlated with greater protective than fruits in some cancer studies.

yes, but what is excess? clearly everyone is different, and different stages of 'cleanliness' would require probably less. It just seems to me that the main guiding principal behind 811 is that given an inadequate ammount of calories from carbs one will inevitably eat tons of calories form fat and thus the percentages are formed. In some ways it resembles the atkins form: eat as much as you want, just not of x. to me its no mystery why it feels good: constantly burning food for fuel, sensation of lightness etc...but does not the whole processing of large ammounts of fruit tax the body? and arn't we supposed to eat till nourished, not the comfort of being full?


so
1.) why would one need 2000 calories if much of what that energy would be normally going to is breaking down complex food and dealing with a diseased body?

2.) why would eating more and more carbs balance out an equation if two individuals were essentially eating the same ammount of fat per week?

anaken, I have similar doubts about any recommended values of calories intake. They are merely averages based on samples taken from an unhealthy population. I would be interested in studies on long term active raw foodists, but they are not available. My personal experience has been that I find myself more nourished with less amount of food than I was somewhat earlier in my raw food journey. Then, I read stories by my raw friends who have discovered that too. A lesson about overeating seems to be one of the later lesson to learn in the transition. As far as fat, it boggled my mind how anyone can live and want to live without any overt fats at all. I thought I could never ever do it. Then, in the recent months I noticed that I prefer to limit my fat intake to levels unimaginable before, and actually feel better, and prefer this way of eating.


Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

yeah, to me this doesn't seem to be at all discussed in relation to 811 here. I think some people have brought up a couple of good points as well on other threads about 811 if one isn't incredibly active and lving in cold climates/participating in a spectrum of healthful acts (sunshine, fresh air)...

I'm still curious about the second question.

If Bryan and I are cosuming the same ammount of fat for an extended period of time, yet he consumes larger quantities of fruit (more calories), does that make my intake of fat an unacceptable ammount of fat because it has a larger percentage of what I am eating?

again, I am not arguing, to me the percentages of 80/10/10 seem to be siphoned directly off a 2000 calorie diet. Other than that i'm pretty convinced about the problems of high fat in the bloodstream and especially mixing high sugar with high fat.