What do you think of K2 (not K1) and long term vegan diet?

[en.wikipedia.org]

"Vitamin K2 (menaquinone-4) is synthesized by animal tissues and is found in meat, eggs, and dairy products.[62] Menaquinone-7 is synthesized by bacteria during fermentation and is found in fermented soybeans (natto).[63] In natto, none of the vitamin K is from menaquinone-4, and in cheese only 2–7% is.[64]"

supplement with K2

[www.amazon.com]

we are an animal
we synthesize it

I don't know everything but check out this link

[chriskresser.com]

Another common misconception is that human beings do not need vitamin K2 in their diet, since they have the capacity to convert vitamin K1 to vitamin K2. The amount of vitamin K1 in typical diets is ten times greater than that of vitamin K2, and researchers and physicians have largely dismissed the contribution of K2 to nutritional status as insignificant.

However, although animals can convert vitamin K1 to vitamin K2, a significant amount of evidence suggests that humans require preformed K2 in the diet to obtain and maintain optimal health. The strongest indication that humans require preformed vitamin K2 in the diet is that epidemiological and intervention studies both show its superiority over K1.

I view it in a similar sense to the potential Omega-3 issue in vegans, in that it can largely depend on how well one converts ALA to DHA or in this case K1 to K2.

If one is not converting well due to any number of reasons then a diet that provides these preformed nutrients will be needed or supplements likely necessary.

Same goes for Vitamin D, if you are not getting adequate sunlight and a relying on fortified vegan foods which generally only contain inactive D2 then it will depend on how well your liver/kidneys convert to active D3.

This is a case where you need to really look at the individuals overall health. Especially if someone has poor intestinal flora balance or history of digestive problems.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 03:11PM by powerlifer.

I often wondered about that, and have included items in my diet that I know are supposed to be excellent sources of k2 in the MK4 form. I am not sure if its helped me to achieve and maintain health. Granted I have been eating some foods which are not great for health.

A skeptical part of me wonders if these studies are unbiased. Perhaps the overall physiology of a raw vegan changes, and perhaps conversion of k1 to k2 is much more effective in a raw vegan, along with beta carotene, and ala to dha etc....

I just have a feeling that these studies have been done on either conventional omnivores, perhaps some vegetarians and vegans who eat cooked items. But has there been any studies on raw vegans and fruitarians? I don't know if there are enough people to make a study, and if anyone really wants to be scientifically studied. So, its not so easy of a question to answer.

The basics that need to be answered by anyone: how are my bones? how are my teeth? Can I effectively clot blood if and when I get cut? and of course how is my overall health?

Thanks for the links, Panchito.

What I take away from it is that our diets, unlike the diets of the majority of the people studied to derive parameters, are very high in sources of K1, and we tend to be healthier in our guts than the genpop. Two main disorders seen in Vit K deficiency are osteoporosis and atherosclerosis--indubitably also contributed to by an acidic, high K2, animal based diet, like that of the Dutch in the study cited by Kresser--so I'd venture to say a study of vegetarians or vegans would produce distinctly different results for Vitamin K2 production.

I agree with Mislu that until such studies are done(which may be a while), we don't know enough to be alarmed. So IMO we should be aware, but focus on over-all health, especially gut health.

After reading both articles, I'm motivated to recommend that every meat eater I know eat a couple of pounds more leafy greens every week, like I do

Sometimes, it is easy to tell if you are low in something with a supplement. But in this case, it would be difficult as a deficiency would have long delayed effects and it is complex. I would say that if vegans saw an long term improvement taking the supplement then they started deficient (IMHO easiest way to study). But it would be better to do it in a personal case instead of groups as it may have nothing to do with vegans but more with fermented food and bacteria.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2012 12:13PM by Panchito.

Tamuhka,
Actually, I was thinking that the K2 in the mk4 form issue for vegans is an unknown without studies. But who will objectively study? All I was thinking is that maybe for the people who were studied K2 in MK4 was necessary. Sure if one is eating a lot of meat, processed foods, and cooked items, maybe their enzyme systems aren't functioning, or functioning differently. Otherwise maybe the body doesn't efficiently convert the nutrient when it doesn't have to.

Panchito,
From what I know, injected k1 has toxic levels, but somehow k2 is actually safer when injected. When taken orally or by food, the body limits k1 absorption. But apparently k2 is absorbed more freely. What this means I am not sure. Some think it indicates a need for K2, but I am not so sure. I am not sure that supplementation will give one the answer, simply because I personally believe that vitamins, minerals and other nutrients work together. I have a difficult time thinking that humans could ever get the ratios of everything correct. But if you eat something that is alive or has been alive, the changes of getting the proper ratio is much, much better.

Mislu, to live 80 years is more natural than to live 100 years. To live longer is not more natural. Actually, to study things to live longer is not natural. Traditional and cultural foods could be considered more natural depending of the point of view. So it may happen that a supplement or a strict diet may make you live 10% more. And it could be that an unbalance ratio of some kind may be better but who knows. It is philosophical stuff where everybody sees what they want.

Panchito,
I am not sure what your reasoning is, but to some extent it could be true. Depending on the point of view. If one lives a somewhat sheltered life, low stress, and have does no heavy labor probably most people will live longer. Provided that they have reasonable mental health, adaquate but not excessive nutrition, moderate living, reasonable sanitation etc.

Some look to medical care as a means to extend and improve life, and to some degree that sort of works. As long as its not co-occuring with some lifestyle thats imbalanced and excessively unnatural. I have come to the conclusion that for the most part humans from this point on will be to some degree unnatural.

Your suggesting that an unnaturally strict diet will extend life? I don't see how excess of a single nutrient is beneficial. Especially not when its obtained via supplement, and especially not synthetic. I would like to be open to possibilities, but is there evidence for this?

I know that some have sought Iodine supplementation after learning about the intake of the Japanese population. But I would really hesitate on taking isolated iodine. They get this from seaweed and seafood. You mean to tell me that humans are going to know what other cofactors go along with X amount of iodine?

Another possibility is that some sought iodine to protect them from radioactive iodine in fallout. That might be protective of health for immediate problems like that, but probably eating some seaweed that you know is not contaminated probably would be better.

I do find your comments interesting however, and would like to understand what you are getting at.

It was about unnatural supplements. I mentioned strict diet in a restrictive sense, like don't eat X and you'll live longer.

Lugols solution (iodine) has a very noticiable effects on endurance.

Panchito,
This is your experience with lugols iodine solution? How is it produced? I had some kelp today, and the packaging says a serving has 20 times the iodine recommened daily. Whatever that means. I just find it curious that such things can be printed for the general public. They don't know my iodine status, so how do they know how much I need at a particular point in time?

I don't know about the endurance thing.

They are just gauging how much iodine you will get per there recommended dosage, which seems quite alot. Half to a teaspoon is more than enough to get the benefits of kelp.

I really like kelp overall and it has to be one of my favorite foods for health, rich in alginates so is a good gentle chelator of heavy metals and other radioactive elements, great profile of trace and ultra trace minerals and so on.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Mislu, Lugols solution improved many things on me like cold hands, better-deeper sleep, exercise endurance, etc. I don't know how they manufacture it.

powerlifer, can you share some of the ways you prepare kelp? I would like to eat it more, but don't know how.

Panchito,
It sounds like the product did something for you.

Rab,
I know you addressed powerlifter. But I just eat kelp as is. But in Japanese resturants they put seseame oil on top, and that tastes good. There are a number of raw recipes which use nori as a wrap. I and my partner really like dulse and eat it as is. But I remember trying a recipe which mixed it in a salad with cucumber, red cabbage and something else I don't remember, but that was really great.