I have been trying to incorporate more raw foods into my life. When I eat a meal of only raw foods I have the experience of craving something rich or within an hour having an upset stomach.

Is this common? If you have experience with this, what do you eat to prevent it?

No, not in ordinary circumstances barring "bad" food combinations, eating too much, or food poisoning. Can you enumerate exactly what you are eating for at least 2 days.

This sounds like it is a transition issue. A person eating a standard western diet will eat 700 to 1000 or more calories per meal. With raw foods, because they are so water rich and calorie sparse, most people's stomach, even when they are full of raw foods, can probably only hold 300 calories or less of raw foods, unless they eat a ton of nuts or avocados or other raw fats. So this means you get hungry pretty quick, probably for some fat, and if you don't eat this fat, your body starts going into a fasting/cleansing mode, which might be an upset stomach.

For my transition, what I did when I first started eating raw was to have 5 to 7 meals a day, until at some point my stomach could stretch out enough to hold a lot of raw foods, and then I only needed 2 meals a day.

Utopian Life, I don't have that calculated right now. But it is a good idea to start watching what I am eating to understand what I really need.

Prana, did you find that your stomach felt almost acidic when you first started to transition. I am finding that if I have one meal of strictly raw foods, even just a smoothie I start craving basic foods, grain based, to balance it out. It has made it hard to eat more than one completely raw food meal per day.

I believe that you're trying to change too quickly. Try and introduce raw foods more slowly, or even undercook your food for awhile.

We all want it to happen fast, but it doesn't work that way.

jalan

The ironic thing is that grains are acidic to the body.

What exactly is an "upset stomach?" Because to me it means nausea but later on you mention acidity. So is it more like acid reflux or heartburn? Are you burping up the smoothie and grains?

As for craving something richer, why not follow up with avocado slices? The fat should be very satisfying. Because you're only talking about one meal, right? So the need for a heavy accompanyment is probably also habitual rather than necessary and by continuing with this, eventually I think you'd get over that urge. Also, bananas are pretty filling, I have found.

<<<When I eat a meal of only raw foods I have the experience of craving something rich or within an hour having an upset stomach. ... I am finding that if I have one meal of strictly raw foods, even just a smoothie I start craving basic foods, grain based, to balance it out.>>>

Hi Knitgyrl,

As BW queried - What exactly is an "upset stomach?"

Do you have this same sensation when you don't eat anything at all?

If so, then what you're experiencing is a Withdrawal Symptom from Unnatural Food - you know - Food we're Not Biologically Adapted to Eat - what some people might call "Basic Foods" - Grains, Meat, Dairy, etc. - see Quotes below.

If you don't have this sensation when you don't eat anything at all or if this is not what you mean by an "upset stomach," then you may be experiencing a Cleansing Reaction, which are like Flu-like symptoms - Headaches, Nausea, Vomiting, Diarrhea, Aches and Pains all over the Body.

And finally, you are probably experiencing both a Cleansing Reaction and a Withdrawal Symptom. Indeed, very few people really know the difference between True Hunger and a Withdrawal Symptom and to help you understand the difference, here are some good quotes from my file on Hunger VS Appetite or Cravings:

“Instead of being eaten when we are physically hungry, food is now consumed to satisfy artificial cravings generated by a brain that isn’t working right and whose receptor sites beg for synthetic stimulation from chemicals. We eat, but we’re never satisfied. We’re full, but aren’t contented.” -Carol Simontacchi - “The Crazy Makers”

"Another common reason for lack of adherence to a raw food diet is hunger. This becomes an issue when insufficient quantities of fruit are consumed. The human stomach is designed with elastic qualities enabling it to expand and accommodate large quantities of high water content foods at a meal. Due to the lifelong habit of eating concentrated foods that are very low in water content, most people's stomachs have lost their elasticity. This results in them only being able to consume a small quantity of fruit at any one time, leaving them hungry soon afterwards. Part of the transition to a raw food diet includes putting the stomach on a flexibility training programme to regain the full extent of its natural elasticity! Gradually increase the quantity of fruit consumed at each sitting until you can proudly, and comfortably, boast an expanded tummy after each meal." -Rozalind Gruben

“The truth is that hunger is a normal, not an abnormal, sensation and all normal sensations are pleasant. It is an error to think of hunger in the terms of symptoms of disease, just as it would be to think of thirst, or any other of the body’s normal desires, as painful or uncomfortable. Normal hunger is indicated by a general bodily condition--a universal call for food--which is localized, so far as localization takes place, in the mouth, nose and throat, just as is the sense of thirst. There is no “hunger pangs” associated with genuine hunger; there is only a pleasant sensation in the nose, mouth and throat and a watering
of the mouth. The hungry person is conscious of a desire for food, not of pain or irritation.

It is a false appetite that manifests itself by morbid irritation, gnawing
in the stomach, pain, the feeling of weakness, and various emotionally rooted discomforts. The dissimilarities between such irritations and a true sense of hunger are quite sharp, the average person tied to the habit of eating at all hours of the day and night rarely permits himself to become hungry and consequently mistakes these morbid sensations for a valid call for food. As eating commonly relieves symptoms of distress, the individual becomes convinced that food was just the thing needed. Often it is a kind of eating binge; the individual eats to cover up psychological miseries, as the drunkard drinks to drown his.” Herbert Shelton, “Fasting Can Save Your Life” p. 32

“The statement sometimes heard that hunger ceases on the third day of the fast implies that true hunger is present during the first two days of the fast. This is usually not true. It is gastric irritation that ceases on the second, third or fourth day of the fast.” Herbert Shelton, “Fasting Can Save Your Life” p. 32

“The presence of normal hunger is regarded as one of the signs of health, while its absence is a symptom of disease. For us to accept this as a reliable criterion of the state of the body, however, it is necessary for us to recognize that there may be present, in disease, a fictional desire for food that is commonly mistaken for hunger. Herbert Shelton, “Fasting For Renewal of Life” p. 86

In our present consideration of hunger we shall discuss:
1. Normal demand for food, genuine hunger.
2. Fictional desire for food, a morbid craving.
3. Absence of desire for food, absence of hunger. “FFROL” p. 87

...when the well man goes without food he gets hungry before he gets weak; when the sick man goes without food, he gets weak before he gets hungry. “FFROL” p. 87

One way to determine real from fictional hunger is to think of the time that has elapsed since the last meal. It is not possible to be “hungry all the time.” If one desires to eat while the stomach is still busy digesting the last meal, one is certainly not hungry. If the last meal was a heavy one, one is not likely to be genuinely hungry for several hours. “FFROL” pp. 87-88

The most important feature of genuine hunger is comfort. The hungry man has no pain, no gnawing feeling in his stomach, he suffers no “hunger pangs,” he is not weak and he has no headache. If any of these symptoms are present, one should suspect that the hunger is spurious. If he does not get to eat at once, he does not become weak. If weakness follows upon delay in eating, this is a sure sign that “addiction” and not hunger is troubling him. If the weakness is relieved by eating, this is but added evidence that it is addiction.

An individual with normal nutrition can omit a meal or more at any time without ill-feeling or loss of strength. If discomfort follows missing a meal, this is the surest evidence that the individual is in need of a fast and a change of eating practices. Genuine hunger (a normal demand for food) is never accompanied by any disagreeable feelings whatever. There is no pain, no distress, no weakness--real or stimulated--no gnawing in the stomach. The demand for food is not felt in the stomach, and we are not aware that we have a stomach. an awareness of organs is a sure sign of disease. “FFROL” p. 88

There are great numbers of people who will assure you that they are hungry before every meal and that if a meal is delayed for a single hour they will grow faint and languid. They often describe pains and discomforts in the abdominal region and some of them say that they suffer with headache. Even physiologists have accepted the popular notion that hunger is a disagreeable sensation, one verging on actual suffering. These symptoms are strikingly like those manifested when a drug addict misses his accustomed dose to which indications has been given the name, withdrawal symptoms. Dr. Page called these “hunger symptoms” a species of “poison-hunger,” thus identifying them with addiction.

Observations reveal that these “poison-hunger” symptoms are most marked in heavy eaters of highly seasoned viands. The more one is addicted to salt, condiments, coffee, tea, etc., the more severe are these symptoms. The man who eats simple fare escapes them entirely. We also know that these sensations are likely to be most severe in the diseased.

Dr. Susanna W. Dodds insisted that “The sense of all-goneness in these cases is not from a lack of nutrient material, but owing to the absence of the habitual stimulus.” “No person,” wrote Dr. Chas E. Page, “feels faint upon passing a meal, or has a gnawing stomach, except it be occasioned by an irritated and unduly congested state of that organ. It is a sure proof of dyspepsia. Strictly speaking, the term is a synonym for indigestion.” Dr. Page well says, “A craving appetite should be treated as a morbid symptom, and should weigh in favor of abstinence.” “FFROL” p. 89

The “hunger” of the poorly nourished person is seldom genuine. It is more often of the same nature as those symptoms of the drug addict who is deprived of his drug that are erroneously called withdrawal symptoms. They are such symptoms as gastric distress, pains in the stomach region, a gnawing in the stomach, weakness, headache, etc. “Hunger pangs” would seem to be cramps and these are certainly abnormal. Normal muscular contractions, even if vigorous, are not painful. On the contrary they tend to be pleasurable. Hunger is not a pathological state and is not manifested by symptoms of disease. “FFROL” p. 90

We now know that hunger is felt in the mouth, throat and nose, and to some exrent, in the whole body. “FFROL” p. 91

The depraved stomach, he (Graham) held, its integrity impaired by previous abuse, may give rise to sensations that are mistaken for hunger, but which are, in reality, demands for irritation or stimulation. “FFROL” p. 91

This alleged demand for food is more properly termed a “perverted appetite.” ...The food addict is in the same boat with the drug addict and suffers similar “withdrawal symptoms” when he does not receive his accustomed meal.

Much of this supposed demand for food is a craving for coffee, salt, pepper, or other irritant and poison to which the stomach has become accustomed. Much of it is simply irritation of the digestive tract resulting from overeating, wrong eating and eating of stimulating foods. A toxic state of the digestive tract, resulting from indigestion, can set up symptoms galore that are mistaken for hunger. Although true hunger is never manifest in the stomach, always in the nose, mouth and throat, it is common to mistake distress in the region of the stomach for hunger.

What I have just said should be interpreted to mean that the morbid symptoms that are commonly mistaken for hunger are symptoms of food poisoning. “FFROL” p. 92

While it is true that the presence of a desire for food is not always a sign of health (this is so, because the demand for food is not genuine) it is true that when hunger is lacking for any great length of time, this manifests a lack of health. One of the first symptoms of acute disease is a suspension of the demand for food. It is a signal that rest of the digestive machinery is needed, a warning that no food is wanted and that, if taken, the nutriment will not be digested and assimilated. ...

If the acutely ill person, the person with severe inflammation, severe pain anywhere in the body, discomfort in the abdomen, etc., eats, the food decomposes in the digestive tract. If it is not thrown out by vomiting or hurried away by diarrhea, it remains in the stomach and intestine to poison and irritate the invalid, increasing both his discomfort and his danger. Feeding should not be resumed in these cases until at least twenty-four hours after all acute symptoms have subsided.

In chronic disease there is a frequent complaint: “I have lost my appetite.” It is complained that “nothing tastes good,” “I have to force myself to eat.” What a lot of suffering these people could avoid if they refrain from eating until they get hungry! This rule is also good for the chronic sufferer who is “hungry all the time.” “FFROL” p. 93

Indeed, genuine hunger is such a delightful sensation that it is worth going on a fast merely for the pleasure of experiencing it. Herbert Shelton, "Fasting For Renewal of Life" p.95

It is a spurious hunger, the only appeal for food a great number of people have ever known, since overfeeding, frequent feeding by the clock, and between-meal eating were started in infancy and continued throughout their lives. They are deceived by it and are honest in believing they are hungry. They remember a certain pleasure of taste and the sense of appropriating food to themselves and call it hunger, eat until food palls upon the taste, and in the course of two to six hours, whether agreeably occupied or not, begin to think of the pleasures of eating again, and consider themselves hungry.” Herbert Shelton, “Fasting For Renewal of Life” p. 96

THE CONCEPT OF “TOXIC HUNGER”

“Losing your ability to sense true hunger sets the foundation for obesity. By feeding them so much caloric-rich food so frequently we have trained our children to disconnect eating from hunger. After enough time goes by continually consuming more calories than they need, they will feel discomfort when they do not have food constantly in their stomach. They must keep their digestive tract going all the time, because the minute it empties, they feel uncomfortable. By the time they become an overweight adult, they are true food addicts.” -Joel Fuhrman, M.D., "Disease-Proof Your Child" pp. 137-138

“When food addictions drive intake via toxic hunger, we are never satisfied with an empty stomach, because it feels too uncomfortable, so we eat more and more and invariably become overweight. The more unhealthy the diet is, the more toxic hunger drives the person to overeat and put on additional pounds.” -Joel Fuhrman, M.D., "Disease-Proof Your Child" p. 139

Peace and Love..........John

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The ironic thing is that grains are acidic to the
> body.


Yes! It is a counterbalance to the basic effects of the fruits and vegetables. I guess I could find fruits and veggies that are more sub-acidic to be in the middle of the spectrum. Thanks for the reminder Utopian Life.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What exactly is an "upset stomach?" Because to me
> it means nausea but later on you mention acidity.
> So is it more like acid reflux or heartburn? Are
> you burping up the smoothie and grains?
>
> As for craving something richer, why not follow up
> with avocado slices? The fat should be very
> satisfying. Because you're only talking about one
> meal, right? So the need for a heavy accompanyment
> is probably also habitual rather than necessary
> and by continuing with this, eventually I think
> you'd get over that urge. Also, bananas are pretty
> filling, I have found.

It isn't really nausea but more acidic. I don't really get acid reflux/heartburn. My stomach just gets that full but too much water feeling. Like when you drink a ton of water too fast.

I used to eat only raw fruits and veggies in the morning before pregnancy and it didn't affect me this way. I agree I am missing the heaviness of cooked foods.

It is probably the concept a couple of people have mentioned about my stomach not expanding enough to accommodate all the high-water content foods. I am changing pretty quickly and could slow it down more. What a concept to take my time making changes (insert ironic tone here).

All great stuff. Thank you!

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Do you have this same sensation when you don't eat
> anything at all?

No. It isn't hunger. I view acid/basic forming foods on a spectrum and it feels like I ate too many foods from the basic forming end and my body wants balance. I have been eating a diet very heavy with processed grains and meats, which I know from experience is not my ideal diet. I am trying to shift back to eating mostly raw fruits and veggies.

>
> If so, then what you're experiencing is a
> Withdrawal Symptom from Unnatural Food - you know
> - Food we're Not Biologically Adapted to Eat -
> what some people might call "Basic Foods" -
> Grains, Meat, Dairy, etc. - see Quotes below.

It could be cleansing. I hadn't thought of that immediately because it was occuring immediately following a meal. It certainly is a shift for my body into a different pattern I have gotten away from in recent years.

>
> If you don't have this sensation when you don't
> eat anything at all or if this is not what you
> mean by an "upset stomach," then you may be
> experiencing a Cleansing Reaction, which are like
> Flu-like symptoms - Headaches, Nausea, Vomiting,
> Diarrhea, Aches and Pains all over the Body.

None of these symptoms are showing up but I did fall back to a cooked diet with raw smoothies in the afternoon because of habit and family drama. Going to get back to increasing the raw foods to crowd out the cooked foods. I will add more high fat foods to my meals and see if that levels things out a bit.

>
> And finally, you are probably experiencing both a
> Cleansing Reaction and a Withdrawal Symptom.
> Indeed, very few people really know the difference
> between True Hunger and a Withdrawal Symptom and
> to help you understand the difference, here are
> some good quotes from my file on Hunger VS
> Appetite or Cravings:
>

I borrowed these to make reminders for myself. Thank you John!


>
> Peace and Love..........John

You mentioned pregnancy. Are you pregnant now? If you are then it may change some of the advice given. If you are what trimester are you at? And if you are, congrats


Love,
Prism

Prism, I'm not pregnant now but I did notice changes in my digestion since having my kids. I just keep experimenting to find what is working best for me.

I concur with Prana, this sounds like a Calorie issue.

Start measuring the amount of Calories you put into each salad. Add a handful of nuts to flesh out the salad a bit more. Make smoothies with a -minimum- of 4 bananas. Make a nutmilk once a day for extra kcals and fat.

Forget about eating salads from a plate, you need a big deep salad bowl. Eating salad off a plate simply wont be a big enough meal imo.

Get into the habit of eating fruit in triplets, so where you would usually eat 1 apple, start eating 3. Where you would usually have 1-2 strawberries, have the whole bunch. (20-30 strawberries)

Getting enough calories was the single biggest issue for me suceeding on raw, and for most people I gather. If you dont get you're calories, your body will start craving stodgy foods.. Bread inparticular was my go to food for kcals.

Calories are more important than nutrients imo... its better to have a full tank of impure fuel than an empty tank of pure fuel.

For a daily meal plan go with something like this..

1 big smoothy 500 kcals minimum
1 big salad in a big salad bowl 600-700 kcal
1 nutmilk. Without straining the pulp this could be up to 1000kcal from say a 200g bag of almonds.

Snacking on fruit in triplets between meals will help knock up those calories.

Im fairly certain your cravings are coming from not meeting your caloric requirements. Remember there are next to no calories in vegetables. Fruit/nuts are where its at.