Thank you so much for your response and discussion.

I have read Andreas Moritz' book on liver/gallbladder flushing and would say that it's all good for information in so many ways - but the flush itself, his version, is WAY too complicated and lengthy. Also, all that epsom salt is no good for you. See: www.sensiblehealth.com

I agree with all who point out that you have to do a series of flushes, all within one month of each other, before you can see & feel results. (There are exceptions where people improve after only a few flushes.) One flush will not do it, for most people.

A flush is a purge. It is true that a purge is not the only way to go.

I looked up this topic and found the following page from years past on this forum:

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

I tend toward being a doubter, but I don't think that stones - or whatever they might be - can be magically formed within a few hours from Lemon Juice + Oil.

I did a successful flush a year ago and produced mostly hard as rock little thingies without any magnesium product whatsoever. I say "thingies" instead of stones to cater to people who say they aren't stones. Personally, I don't care if they are stones or not.

I have also discharged soft yellow-green thingies that disintegrated at room temperature.

I have also discharged thingies that had a thin layer of something. When left to dry these stones got a bit smaller but did not disintegrate. The outer layer turned white & hard.

This time round, a few weeks ago, I did Gold Coin Grass tincture for 21 days. It is the best decision I made because I did not get sick at all in the middle of the night, which can happen if you don't take precautions to soften the thingies first. Virtually all of the thingies were a light pea green, some big, some small, and surrounded by a thin shell.

If the thingies were formed overnight in the small intestine, I'd like to know why there are so many different kinds. Some people produce yellow ones/black ones/soft ones/hard ones/ones that disintegerate/some that stay the same for years when just left on the shelf (as I have).

I will say little for the flush's effects until such time as I have done about 6 or 7 in a row, one month apart. From my extensive reading I have concluded that for an older person with a stagnant liver (I was diagnosed as such by an acupuncture doctor) it can take months to improve function. (I am middle-aged.)

I did a couple of flushes a couple of years ago but too far apart. I got sick a couple of times. After taking GCG purchased from sensiblehealth, there was no sickness + I was able to take a large quantity of oil, whereas without GCG I could not even take 1/2 a cup.

Remember, this is a PURGE.

Julia Chang says if you don't want to purge, just do GCG for a year.

I promise to honestly report back in 6-7 months.

Hi

Someone earlier said that it's up to the individual to decide whether these are quackery.

Before you do any more so-called 'gallstone cleanses' and the like, please read my article here:

[debbietookrawforlife.blogspot.com]

Debbie, if the stones from gallbladder flushes are not gallstones but instead are just the oil and lemon juice from the flush then wouldn't you get "fake gallstones" everytime you ate salad.

I could test this out so easily, one day I'll just eat oil and lemon juice mixture and and the next day I'll do the flush with the epsom salts. So according to you I'll get floating stones on both days?

If we aren't actually getting gallstones out we are probably getting "cholesterol deposits" which would be a positive thing:-)

[www.medicinenet.com]

There are several types of gallstones and each type has a different cause.

* Cholesterol gallstones

Cholesterol gallstones are made primarily of cholesterol. They are the most common type of gallstone, comprising 80% of gallstones in individuals from Europe and the Americas. Cholesterol is one of the substances that liver cells secrete into bile. (Secretion of cholesterol into bile is an important way in which the liver eliminates excess cholesterol from the body.)

In order for bile to carry cholesterol, the cholesterol must be dissolved in the bile. Cholesterol is a fat, however, and bile is an aqueous or watery solution; fats do not dissolve in watery solutions. In order to make the cholesterol dissolve in bile, the liver also secretes two detergents-bile acids and lecithin-into the bile. These detergents, just like dish-washing detergents, dissolve the fatty cholesterol so that it can be carried by bile through the ducts. If the liver secretes too much cholesterol for the amount of bile acids and lecithin it secretes, some of the cholesterol does not dissolve. Similarly, if the liver does not secrete enough bile acids and lecithin, some of the cholesterol also does not dissolve. In either case, the undissolved cholesterol sticks together and forms particles of cholesterol that grow in size and eventually form larger gallstones.

There are two other processes that promote the formation of cholesterol gallstones though neither process is able to cause cholesterol gallstones by itself. The first is abnormally rapid formation and growth of cholesterol particles into gallstones. Thus, with the same concentrations of cholesterol, bile acids and lecithin in their bile, patients with gallstones form particles of cholesterol more rapidly than individuals without gallstones. The second process that promotes the formation and growth of gallstones is reduced contraction and emptying of the gallbladder that allows bile to sit in the gallbladder longer so that there is more time for cholesterol particles to form and grow.

* Pigment gallstones

Pigment gallstones are the second most common type of gallstone. Although pigment gallstones comprise only 15% of gallstones in individuals from Europe and the Americas, they are more common than cholesterol gallstones in Southeast Asia. There are two types of pigment gallstones 1) black pigment gallstones, and 2) brown pigment gallstones.

Pigment is a waste product formed from hemoglobin, the oxygen-carrying chemical in red blood cells. The hemoglobin from old red blood cells that are being destroyed is changed into a chemical called bilirubin and released into the blood. Bilirubin is removed from the blood by the liver. The liver modifies the bilirubin and secretes the modified bilirubin or into bile.

* Black pigment gallstones: If there is too much bilirubin in bile, the bilirubin combines with other constituents in bile, for example, calcium, to form pigment (so-called because it is dark brown in color). Pigment dissolves poorly in bile and, like cholesterol, it sticks together and forms particles that grow in size and eventually form gallstones. The pigment gallstones that form in this manner are called black pigment gallstones because they are black and hard.

* Brown pigment gallstones: If there is reduced contraction of the gallbladder or obstruction to the flow of bile through the ducts, bacteria may ascend from the duodenum into the bile ducts and gallbladder. The bacteria alter the bilirubin in the ducts and gallbladder, and the altered bilirubin then combines with calcium to form pigment. The pigment then combines with fats in bile (cholesterol and fatty acids from lecithin) to form particles that grow into gallstones. This type of gallstone is called a brown pigment gallstone because it is more brown than black. It also is softer than black pigment gallstones.

Other types of gallstones. Other types of gallstones are rare. Perhaps the most interesting type of gallstone is the gallstone that forms in patients taking the antibiotic, ceftriaxone (Rocephin). Ceftriaxone is unusual in that it is eliminated from the body in bile in high concentrations. It combines with calcium in bile and becomes insoluble. Like cholesterol and pigment, the insoluble ceftriaxone and calcium form particles that grow into gallstones. Fortunately, most of these gallstones disappear once the antibiotic is discontinued; however, they still may cause problems until they disappear



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2010 05:22AM by tropical.

tropical, the 'stones' are made by glugging down large amounts of oil, not just the oil on a salad, which would 'go down' with a lot of other food.

And it's not just 'according to me'. In the article, you'll see that there are some highly-qualified people who also believe these flushes are 'snake oil'.

There's not really any point in my arguing this one here, as I've been collecting info on, and mulling over this one, for years, and the results of this are all in the blog article. There are still lots of people who believe these 'flushes' are a good thing to do to the body - I don't happen to agree.

As an earlier poster said, it's up to each person to decide whether these 'flushes' are what they say they are. (In the article, I do offer an explanation for the positive effects that some experience after them.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2010 10:33AM by debbietook.

doing the liver flush was one of the best things i ever did, if that helps anyone in looking into this. i was very sick years ago, one of my problems was gallstones and liver stones (stones occur in the bile ducts of the liver as well as the gall bladder). i released many stones which i know were stones as my health issues improved, i had no more stabbing pain after eating, no blocked feeling in my liver, and most important at the time, i was having panic attacks every night while falling asleep. those also resolved. oh, and my triglyceride and cholesterol levels came down (without any other changes, my diet already was long time vegan and high raw for a couple years).

the flush is not gimmick, no one is selling anything, it's something you do on your own for the cost of a couple grapefruits and oil. you also don't have to take massive amounts of oil as some believe for it to work, a few tablespoons and it works. it's in the preparation and the epsom salts dilate the ducts.

something else about the claim of 'soap stones'....if they were soap, then i (and many others) should be seeing them every time i do the flush. i never see stones anymore, not for years. because they are gone!!

people have done these flushes and released hundreds of stones, my sister did it who isn't alternative health inclined and released a pint worth of stones (and she has no gallbladder, so it was from her liver). how do you get a pint of 'soap stones' from 2 tablespoons oil?

anyway, i wasn't going to post on this, i usually stear away from debate, but the liver flush was so important to my healing that it's hard for me not to comment. hope my experiences with it is of use to people.

On one of my flushes (no mag sulfate was used) I passed hard entities - small and round. Some were all clustered together and looked like a raspberry. They did not disintegrate or turn to oil. Could someone here on the antiflush end of things opine as to what they might be? From my reading, I would say they are "calcified cholesterol stones". If a cholesterol crystal (which forms around a tiny bit of organic matter such as cells from the gallbladder itself when it is under stress) grows and grows and sits around long enough, it will form a calcium layer around it.

Perhaps a pure cholesterol, soft "thing" could have formed in the intestine from the ingredients themselves, I don't know, but I wonder what are those round hard things that go "Ping!" when I drop them on a hard surface & how they magically formed in a few hours.

"Gallstones are primarily comprised of cholesterol and calcium, as calcium bilirubinate or calcium palmitate. Depending on the precise composition, the stones may be soft (more cholesterol) or relatively hard (more calcium). There may be a large number of small sticky stones, or just one large hard stone, as well as many intermediate conditions, such as a few medium size firm stones (see Figure 3). The presence of stones may be accompanied by inflammation of the gallbladder wall (cholecystitis). Cholecystis may stimulate stones to form, or the stones may induce such inflammation, with each condition progressively worsening the other."

- Subhuti Dharmananda, itmonline.org

Its all a scam. It sells books and provides a 'magic show' for crew that are ignorant to the scammers.

Just like mucoid plague. Ive asked surgeons and nurses and they have never seen it before. But hey, maybe they have their eyes closed when they are there..not.

People want a quick fix and dont want to give up the junk and lifestyle that creates the problems in the first place..thats the society we live in..

DR it must be one of those things where you have to do it to understand it.

Oh, and I've come to the conclusion that the "mucoid plaque" is clear and that is the reason that there are "ropes" during cleansing. Yes most of the eliminated material is just the cleansing material but without the mucoid plaque it wouldn't be strong enough to be a rope. It's kind of like doing a facial for your colon, when you wash the facial off most of the material is the mud you put on, but it cleanes the pores on your face too. Similarly, most of the stuff eliminated during a colon clease is the colon cleasing material, but it does cleanse the suface of the colon while it's in there.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2010 03:57PM by tropical.

Tropical - how do you know that?

Site with mucoid plaque pictures, contrasting a colon with mucoid plaque with a clean colon, actually it looks a little more "milky" than clear to me.
[www.optimalhealthnetwork.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2010 06:06PM by tropical.

Good article on liver flushing myth.

[www.sciencebasedmedicine.org]

What's the myth? There are gallstones and people get them out. There is build up of cholesterol and people get it out. Liver cleansing was the standard procedure until surgery came along. I've read more than one story like the following where liver cleansing info is found in old family recipe books. In the second story an old DOCTOR provided a woman with the recipe for a liver cleanse when she couldn't get surgery. Everyone used to do liver cleanses.

[sheilasimpson.blogspot.com]
"”I first found out about the Liver flush from a recipe book handed down through three generations of my family that dates back to Victorian times. The flush is done with Epsom salts, grapefruit juice and wait for it Castor Oil. Guess those were the ingredients available in New Zealand at the time. I was also told by an elderly relative that the reason all old homes in NZ had a grapefruit tree was so the women could do their liver flush regularly.

I also have a second copy of the same recipe, given to me many years ago by an elderly Doctor, who had also had the recipe for the liver flush handed down through three generations of Doctors. He told me that it was used in NZ Doctors before surgery became available for gall bladder problems and he had seem many large stone passed safely.

Three years ago I became a Diabetic and it was noted that my liver function tests were abnormal. I also had a liver ultrasound done which had hyperechoic areas, (which would relate to small stones in the liver ducts) and fatty liver disease. That was enough for me. I got out the old family recipe book and did the flush using olive oil in place of cod liver oil.

Thousands of grit like stones were passed and I repeated the process every six weeks for over about a four month period. To my Doctor’s amazement my liver function tests returned to normal, and he is now starting to listen to what I have been saying."

[curezone.com]
My grandmother Nada told me this story.
It was about when she was around forty years old. Though I was teenager when she first time told me the story, I still remember it as though she told me a few years ago.
I could imagine everything she experienced.

It happened somewhere in Belgrade, during 1950s. She was living with her two sons, my father, and my uncle.
That year, she often experienced sharp and long lasting pain on her right side and under her rib cage. I think it was during the winter time.

A doctor diagnosed her with gallstones. He suggested a fat-free diet. I guess surgery was out of the question at that time. Yugoslavia was destroyed in World War II;
I doubt doctors were performing gallbladder surgeries very often during fifties. Even if they were performing those surgeries, knowing my grandmother, I really doubt she would dare go under the knife, regardless of the pain she was experiencing. During fifties, people were dying on the operating table far more often then today.

Her pain (gallstones attacks) was getting worse, so most people who knew her knew how bad she was suffering. Through friends, she came in contact with an old, retired doctor who gave her a recipe written on a small piece of paper. She kept that piece of paper for years together with her most important papers and documents, and she shared the recipe with others who needed it, but, eventually, she lost it. However, the recipe was very simple & easy to remember, she could never forget it.

Here is the original recipe:
Gallstones purging recipe
_______________________________
Eat only fat-free breakfast the day of cleanse, and then fast.


In the evening:
squeeze juice from 10 lemons
and mix it with 1 cup of olive oil.

[Important comment about lemons: Lemons available in Yugoaslavia 1950 were the size of a small lime, just slightly larger then a walnut. Lemons available today may be 3 times the size of the lemons available 1950. All you need is about a half cup of freshly pressed lemon juice, regardless of the number of lemons it may take to get that amount of juice.]

Drink it.
Walk all night. Empty bowels into the pot and look for stones.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So, she did it. My father and his brother (who were teenagers) had to stay awake all that night.

She was so weak, and had so much pain, they had to hold her and walk with her all night. As she explained, her pain was so intense at some moments, she couldn’t support herself when standing. Sometimes, she just lay on the floor in pain.

She emptied her bowels several times that night and morning.
In the morning, they counted over 28 calcified stones of different color, many of them larger than marbles. The stones were as hard as rock. Fully calcified.

She kept those stones in a plastic bag for years, but eventually, she lost them when she moved into another house.

She never had the gallstones symptoms again, and she never repeated that cleanse again.

I asked my father if he remembered that night, but he doesn't. But, he did remember the stones.
My grandmother is dead, my uncle is dead, and I am the only person who remembers this whole story.
I am telling it to my kids and to you, so the story does not get forgotten.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2010 05:05PM by tropical.

Thanks for that wonderfully informative and humorous post, tropical. It needs to be emphasized that "gallstones" are a settling-out of cholesterol, apparently caused by a lack of balance between bile salts and cholesterol.

Then these little bits of cholesterol take on a layer of calcium compound and the longer they sit there, the thicker those layers of calcium get. It is not hard to understand. I have passed stones that were hard and gray on the outside but on cutting them open with a knife I saw that they had a waxy yellowish substance inside. Some stones take on bile pigments, too.

From The New York Medical Journal (1899) Doctors talking about gallbladder sugery and their experiences with using oil to flush gallstones. I could probably pull up a lot of similar references. Liver flushing seems like a usefull thing. Yes?
[books.google.com]
Dr. Carr had spoken of the various solvents, and had mentioned oil incidentally, but not as one of the solvents. It was well known that oil dissolved gallstones if actually brought into contact. Practically, the speaker's experience with oil had not been pood, but theoretically he thought that if the stone was lodged in the duct just at the point where the duct entered the duodenum—and this was, in fact, a very narrow part of the duct—the oil might be able to reach it and exercise a certain amount of solvent action. In his experience the giving of oil had not been uniformly beneficial. It had sometimes upset the stomach and had caused more trouble than good.

. . .

In his own experience (DR. Cole's) olive oil administered in large doses had been beneficial, and he had repeatedly given it to patients with acute biliary attacks. When they had retained it and the oil had gone through, the stones had done the same thing. He spoke of a patient who, after having taken a teacupful of olive oil, had passed a number of good-sized stones. The physician who had treated the case stated that there had been eighty or ninety stones passed by the bowel after this dose of olive oil. About two or three years ago a gentleman had come to his apartment about three o'clock in the morning with quite an acute attack of biliary colic. The speaker had given him a hypodermic injection of morphine, relieved his pain, and sent him home, telling him to take a big dose of olive oil, which he had done, and he had recovered from the attack, passed the stone without any trouble, and had not had an attack since. The preventive treatment by the cholate of sodium seemed, by an examination of the literature, to offer the best chances, and the cases that had been followed up appeared to have done better, though there were not a great many cases recorded. Of course, general hygiene was the essential point in the aftertreatment.

Dr. D. E. Walker said that some years ago he had had a patient who had had frequent attacks of gallstone colic, and in whom he had found a very perceptible tumor in the gall bladder. An operation had been suggested, but she had been advised to take large doses of olive oil first, and after having used that a few days she had passed by the bowel over a hundred gallstones. The tumor had disappeared from the gall bladder and the patient had had no attack of colic since. He had had a case recently in which the attack had come on immediately after a hot bath. Dr. Baner had spoken of hot baths as being, probably, a good thing in the treatment of a case, and the speaker agreed with him, because it would bring on a relaxation of the walls of the cystic duct, and that was probably the explanation of the attack in that case. There had probably been a stone in the gall bladder, and it had entered the duct at that time and had brought on an attack of gallstone colic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2010 05:55PM by tropical.

Sorry I haven't read all your post tropical but I got to the bit where you said everyone used to do liverflushes - ummm yes and your point being?

The romans used to drink out of lead goblets, doctors used to bleed already weakened patients - because something used to be done does not mean it is a good practise in my opinion

powerlifer,

I found the tone of the link almost unbearably condescending and edging toward derisive in several passages. Having met many arrogant but nonetheless stupefyingly ignorant doctors in my day, I demand a medal of valor for actually getting through the article!

Note: the author has not attempted a flush himself, and considers one account of a woman in New Zealand to be a thorough rebuttal to reams of anecdotal evidence. Allow me to say, not very science-y, eh?

The dismissal of homeopathy as being primary bunk to the secondary bunk of coffee enemas suggests author David Gorski does, indeed, lack molecular science training(admittedly, not core curriculum for non radiology majors):

Quote

Ah, yes, the coffee enema, arguably the most ridiculous “CAM” therapy there is, other than homeopathy.

And ultimately this is the final nail in the coffin of my opinion of the author as an educated assessor:

Quote

I still haven’t figured out how the coffee enema “flushes” the liver.

Duh, the liver and colon share the portal vein. Maybe he failed anatomy. And obviously had zero nutrition courses.

For the last time: lack of evidence is not equivalent to lack of cause/efficacy/effect. If the NIH were to publish the full pdf of a double blind study of 200 people undertaking the liver flush in a clinical setting, including biopsies of evacuated matter, that suggested that the liver flush is hooey, that would give me pause. This, not so much. It lacks . . . what's the word? Objectivity.

Quackery?

The knee jerk removal of an organ from a body that usually is only having issues in the first place because of a completely garbage diet. That's the very definition of quackery.

Doctor is an occupation, not a deity. I have more respect for street corner drug dealers than I do for half of them.

There is no money in supporting farmers markets, organic foods, and the avoidance of drugs and surgery as a general rule.

2 months ago I had an extreme gallbladder attack, and went to the hospital. They found stones with ultrasound, and wanted to schedule me for removal surgery. I refused.

I then did a lot of reading, and decided to remove all processed foods.

Lost 30 pounds, and in the best physical and mental shape of my life. I am going to get to the bottom of this gallbladder flush discussion, with ultrasound pics to back up what i go through. I will be giving chanca piedra a shot first though, just because I have seen it work on kidney stones with CT evidence.

I just wish some folks would consider the obvious reasons that the medical industry MUST promote the idea - that flushing stones out of that muscular tube that is the gallbladder is not possible, and instead it's better to yank it out, and just go on doing what you're doing. Ridiculous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2011 04:16PM by mystonic.

Bitter herbs are the best way to cleanse the liver/gallbladder and stimulate bile flow.

the liver/gallbladder flush is a sham.