A lot of people who are so aware and so strict and alternative with their lifestyle are so deep into it that the effort and effect it has on their psychology and limitations is all they know anymore so they accept it.

Though I come from having sheltered myself from much of the awareness and avoiding knowing many unpleasant things directly, brushing things I hear off and denying they meant what I thought they did.

I didn't have a terrible diet. Still vegan, organic when available, and only "bad" foods when traveling or eating out. Though it wasn't perfect and I planned on getting a much better and stricter diet when I got settled, it was convenient and freeing to not think about or worry about any of it and be able to get food wherever I went at cafes and restaurants and regular grocery stores.

Then I came across info that was disturbing and I had to look into it to see what it was.

First about the defect levels in packaged foods which was bothersome to know. That alone made me very paranoid. I mean sure, most of it I shouldn't eat anyways, though what about healthy packaged foods, are they contaminated also? Like almond butter and such things?

Then I came across the even much more disturbing facts that I had no idea about. That of the biosolids program used to fertalize food crops.

I truly wish I hadn't learned about that one. I can't accept these things, they're too bothersome and disturbing.

And of course I know there's more. There is no end to what is wrong with things and wrong with the world and how many problems there.

Is it really worth it to know all that and keep getting more and more aware?

It's not as if I can change it. I could only accept things (which I really can't) or become paranoid and isolated and limited and run away as much as I can trying to isolate myself off from the problems and obsessively trying to narrow down some purity in things for myself etc.

Though at what cost? The cost of viewing society and people with this negative awareness of things they're often not even aware of? The cost of separating from it all? The cost of feeling paranoid and not trusting anything? The cost of being obsessive about it all and hating this world?

Physically, technically, getting the purist stuff to eat is best, though the price of awareness psychologically and limitations on one's lifestyle is High! It completely messes me up and I just hate all of these things and biology and this distorted sick mutated world.

The more I learn the more I don't want to even stay here. I hate being so aware of the physical micro nature and such. Takes away all spiritual or creative feelings and I view it all technical, clinical, details, problem focused etc.

So is trading peace of mind and freedoms really worth eating a little healthier?

Are you really happier psychologically now than you were before you knew all these disturbing things about food and about the world? Are you less stressed and more positive than before or more negative now you know what you didn't?

Ignorance really is happiness?

"Why oh why didn't I take the BLUE pill?"

hey chaotic


you ask

is it worth it?

hmmm..... really interesting and worthy question

the stuff you mentioned is picayune compared to far more disturbing things

is it worth it?

in a way, no

and in a way, yes

the blue pill definitely has its perks ( for obvious reasons...)
but it also has its side effects ( very obvious as well)

but you wouldn't have it any other way
which is why you took the blue pill

i guess the main question is:

can u live with yourself? after discovery of all this "knowledge"

and if you are alive

then the answer is obviously :

yes

once again, is it worth it?

obviously it is, cuz you are still going down the rabbit hole

if it wasn't worth it

you woudldn't be doing it

Hey, wait... are you saying by "biosolids" humanure? Now that's something I'd like to see more of actually. We sure shouldn't be flushing all the nutrients we consume into the dang waterways! That's supposed to be a connected cycle. Around and around and around...

As for the rest of it, Serenity Prayer . (I've altered this a bit)

Grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking this world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that all things are right
Trusting that if I surrender
I may be reasonably happy in this life.

also

accepting beauty as the pathway to peace

i altered yours a bit coco
sorry

i couldn't resist

No prob, I severely changed it myself.
I don't mind the replacement of "hardship", after all experience is in the eye of the experiencer. What is a challenge for some may be exactly what they need to learn and grow .

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the stuff you mentioned is picayune compared to
> far more disturbing things

What is disturbing or not is subjective, some people don't even care about what disturbs me and are fine with it. Though yeh, I don't want to know the other things. I mean I know a lot of disturbing things already though new ones are the most shocking, changing perceptions and such.

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i guess the main question is:
>
> can u live with yourself? after discovery of all
> this "knowledge"
>
> and if you are alive
>
> then the answer is obviously :
>
> yes

More like, can I live with this world as is? Without avoiding everything now or going into isolation etc...



>
> once again, is it worth it?
>
> obviously it is, cuz you are still going down the
> rabbit hole
>
> if it wasn't worth it
>
> you woudldn't be doing it

No it was by accident I came accross different info. Didn't go searching to know all these things suddenly. Not sure if I could continue cause it messes with my OCD too much, paranoia, intrusive images etc. Not thick skinned enough to handle the truths.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel like it's all unreliable. Everything. At
> every turn of life no matter where I go. Either we
> live an an alien world or run by them and things
> we'll always be in the dark until 'they' fess up
> to what is going on.


Not sure what you mean.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, wait... are you saying by "biosolids"
> humanure? Now that's something I'd like to see
> more of actually. We sure shouldn't be flushing
> all the nutrients we consume into the dang
> waterways! That's supposed to be a connected
> cycle. Around and around and around...


Your kind of view is why it's so easy for them to greenwash it. More like, all of the toxic heavy metals and chemicals, bleaches, pharmaceuticals, and everything else that goes down the drain all together. Not exactly very green or safe. They can treat "most" not all of the pathogens, though not the chemicals and metals and drugs etc. Those accumulate in the soil and can be taken up by the plants.

There is a reason why we use grassfed vegetarian animals manure. Manure from carnivores is not even safe or good for the plants, people already know that about dogs and how it's not safe to use dog manure near edible plants. Though this is even worse with all the chemicals and drugs and everything. It's not manure at all, it is industrial waste they're trying to dispose of on farms.

There is a reason why it's against regulations for certified organic farms to use it. It isn't organic or safe.

It's what this book title is based on. I saw it before though never knew that's what they were referring to until now.

[www.amazon.com]

Here you can educate yourself starting here:
[www.indyweek.com]

" you have forgotten the advise of you father, beware of Greeks bearing gifts and people who say, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help.""

[www.ejnet.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2013 02:05PM by Chaotic.

Chaotic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> coco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hey, wait... are you saying by "biosolids"
> > humanure? Now that's something I'd like to see
> > more of actually. We sure shouldn't be flushing
> > all the nutrients we consume into the dang
> > waterways! That's supposed to be a connected
> > cycle. Around and around and around...
>
>
> Your kind of view is why it's so easy for them to
> greenwash it.

Erm, I'm not exactly wandering around in the dark on the subject. That's quite the assumption there dude.
I agree that it's not done in the best possible way but at least things are headed in the right direction.
Here's a book for you [www.amazon.com]
I think it's time we recapture this valuable resource.

The right direction, destroying the land, killing the animals and recycling toxins and diseases.

Ok then you can keep eating the food grown in toxic sludge then, I don't care.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2013 09:58PM by Chaotic.

Chaotic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The right direction, destroying the land, killing
> the animals and recycling toxins and diseases.
>
> Ok then you can keep eating the food grown in
> toxic sludge then, I don't care.

Well, at least take a LOOK at the book I linked to. Sheesh.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chaotic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Well, at least take a LOOK at the book I linked
> to. Sheesh.

I did, and if you read the articles and the insider info into what they're doing it's completely appearing that it's not the same thing at all and never will be from them. It's a nasty mix of chemicals and industrial solvents, fire retardants, heavy metals, and all the other chemical poisons going down the drain directly or from all these sick people. Looking around at all the disgusting sick people in society I sure don't want them fertilizing anything.

It may seem close to you, though it is no where near close and is not headed in that direction at all. These chemicals and industrial waste should not be given to plants and their intentions are not about that anyways. They just need to get rid of a problem cheaply, they don't care about solving any or creating more problems as long as the burden of those problems are displaced on to others.

Like I said you can feel however you want about it, and I'll feel how I feel about it. I feel shocked and betrayed. The way someone else might feel if they read they are grinding up dead human bodies to use as fertilizer to make room in the graveyards, or maybe even also using the ground bodies as filler in foods. It might be natural, it might close loops, though so does eating meat. Animal grazes on the grass and vegetables then you eat the animal, the food cycle is a complete one, though if that was the entire arguememt for eating meat it isn't good enough and doesn't take into account the modern conditions of the animals and fake food. To my mind, it somehow borderlines on canabilism for some reason. I want animal manure grown good instead.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing really has the best intentions as all if
> not 99.9% (can we round to 100%?) "natural"
> movements become corrupted/hijacked by a force
> that is completely alien is non-empathic to us.
>
> Totally non-humane = inhuman.

I think we're the aliens as everyone else seems to feel totally at home here on this backwards planet and doesn't see it as backwards as we do. At least I've always felt like an alien and like I don't understand this place and am sickened by it, it's so bizarre to me. Get me out of here!


>
> Sure people think they might have good intentions
> but what is giving these people their intentions,
> or where does it lead to? Who/what is Really
> responsible for such "genuine" intents?

Exactly! Always look at what they gain, if it's even appearant.

>
> Life is nothing but a fraud to me, nothing more.
> Nothing more than a hellish computer simulation
> probably in fact.
>
> Life can give us just enough so that we can be
> 'ok' with it but as soon as you turn your back it
> betrays you and crushes your soul. It is a
> backstabber, and that is it's intent.

Just wants to keep you in line. As long as you obey it all and don't question anything or speak out, you'll be rewarded with feeling ok and having an ok though mediocre life. The ignorant are the most content.

>
> It's intent is to break your heart because one has
> to transcend even the heart and love, into
> "insanity."
>
> Atleast that's how I see it.
>
> I also question the notion that people have when
> they say naive things like "every troubling event
> is an opportunity for growth". It's not like
> there's some God up in the SKy or Grand Architect
> that creates negative situations solely for
> growth. I see these as only containing the intent
> to totally destroy. If it becomes an opportunity
> for and I can make it so, then that's how I could
> make it out to be. It's not always that way. I'm
> not going to sit here and accept that life dishes
> out evil with the excuse for good intent.

Or "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger". Hmm, some evidence for this?

Some stress, the right kind of stress that is not overdone stimulates growth in people. In their muscles and cardiovascular fitness, in their immune system, in their willpower, in their character, in their patience, in their tolerances etc.

Though that is the key, the RIGHT stress in the RIGHT amounts with the RIGHT recovery is the recipe to stimulate these healthy growths and strengthening.

If it's the wrong stress or overwhelming stress, then it does the opposite and weakens people at best, at worst it destroys them.

So it's so great how people over generalize everything ignorantly.

I don't think it's the same at all. It's a case of trying to do on a large scale what is healthy on a small scale and mucking it up royally. But the intention to dispose of human waste product in a manner that contributes something back to the earth cycle is a good one, however incorrectly pursued. My hope is that as the technology progresses the process will become healthier and more natural. One can only hope.

That said, perhaps that's the difference between one view point and another, an aside to the original post. Where one can see only the horror and negativity of what's happening, another choice may be to look at what can come of the situation in a positive light. I don't consider myself an unrealistic optimist but at this point in my life I find it more helpful to look for some light at the end of any tunnel .

This just crossed my path:

Shenpa Warrior

You can cruise through life not letting anything touch you, but if you really want to live fully, if you want to enter into life, enter into genuine relationships with other people, with animals, with the world situation, you’re definitely going to have the experience of feeling provoked, of getting hooked, of shenpa. You’re not just going to feel bliss. The message is that when those feelings emerge, this is not a failure. This is the chance to cultivate maitri, unconditional friendliness toward your perfect and imperfect self.

"Patience is not learned in safety."

- Pema Chödrön

Storm, it has to go somewhere and better back into the earth than into waterways. It is better to bury it or spread it on the land where bacteria can break it down and recycle it. The process should be dealt with in a careful manner, which it currently is not, not on the large scale anyhow, but all the nutrients we consume belong back in the dirt where we got them from. Properly composted human waste is valuable. Urine is incredibly good for plants, that should never be flushed!
As for the contaminents in our waste, again, should not be disposed of in the waterways. That's dangerous for everybody and everything. All of that comes originally from earth, there must be safe ways to put it back where it originated from.

<<<Manure from carnivores is not even safe or good for the plants, people already know that about dogs and how it's not safe to use dog manure near edible plants.>>>

Remember the Pottenger Cat Study where Pottenger “experimented with the waste products from the various animal groups and he found that when he fertilized soil with the excrement of the cats eating completely raw food and those eating the half raw food, seeds planted in this soil grew to healthy and luxuriant plants, whereas seeds planted in soil fertilized by excrement from the cats eating the dry food grew very meagerly and the plants were afflicted with several diseases.”

Peace and Love..........John

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't think it's the same at all. It's a case of
> trying to do on a large scale what is healthy on a
> small scale and mucking it up royally. But the
> intention to dispose of human waste product in a
> manner that contributes something back to the
> earth cycle is a good one, however incorrectly
> pursued. My hope is that as the technology
> progresses the process will become healthier and
> more natural. One can only hope.
>
> That said, perhaps that's the difference between
> one view point and another, an aside to the
> original post. Where one can see only the horror
> and negativity of what's happening, another choice
> may be to look at what can come of the situation
> in a positive light. I don't consider myself an
> unrealistic optimist but at this point in my life
> I find it more helpful to look for some light at
> the end of any tunnel .


It's not as if it's anything new. Humans have been doing this for thousands of years in other countries like China. Though in today's modern world with all the chemicals and terrible diets and toxins, it's not possible for it to be good for the earth or people. There is no technology to eliminate the chemicals and toxins and heavy metals. The chemicals have not originated from the earth, they're man made concoctions and do not belong as part of the earth cycle, do not break down.

I agree disposing in the waterways is disgusting.

Most of it is disposed of in landfills nowadays, not waterways. Landfills are not good, though should we also spread the garbage from the landfills on our farms to break down in the dirt no matter what various things are in the garbage beyond compostable scraps? Cause it's the same thing, there's no separation.

The issue is the industrial chemical revolution and overpopulation. We've created so much toxic waste that is hazardous to people and the earth so it has to be contained instead of part of the natural earth cycle. For them to treat it that way is nothing short of an excuse not good intentions, they're not that ignorant.

Sure bury it, though then it'd contaminate ground water which would be another problem. It's a contaminate so there's not much they can do without destruction.

Can't believe I'm even talking about this issue. Not long ago I couldn't even handle reading anything even related to this subject. Though avoiding doesn't make reality go away, I just didn't want to know anything or think about it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2013 10:45PM by Chaotic.

There are things we can't change and then there are things that thinking and talking about may solve. It's good to avoid the first, or at least detach oneself from the angst of those matters, and to focus on the things we can do, what Can we do, what Can we change? Those are good places to put our intention, attention, and action .

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are things we can't change and then there
> are things that thinking and talking about may
> solve. It's good to avoid the first, or at least
> detach oneself from the angst of those matters,
> and to focus on the things we can do, what Can we
> do, what Can we change? Those are good places to
> put our intention, attention, and action .


Yeah, though through avoiding you don't even know that there is an issue or anything going on. They've been doing this practice 30 years now and I have only found out about it days ago. That's why I feel so shocked cause I literally didn't know and never would of thought. That's also why I partly wish that I had not found out cause I already went without knowing and was I that bad off not knowing? I don't know. I didn't know what I didn't know.

Now that I know, the only thing I know I can change is doing the best I can to avoid buying from farms that use it and let others know so they can avoid it also.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2013 10:58PM by Chaotic.

There have to be places that you can access that are doing it better, there just have to be small organizations that are working hard to put natural nutrients back into the soil in a healthy and sustainable way. Those are the places to give your dollars to. Every time we spend we are voting for the kind of world we want to live in. It's pretty proactive to think that way. Sure makes me avoid the dreaded malwart and the like whenever possible. And when not possible I think about whether I really need whatever it is that I'm after.
I hooked up with the local freecycle site and have given away 2 bunches of stuff in the past 2 days. Feels great to DO something good. Get out there and DO my friend, it's uplifting .

well - each time we find something disturbing, we can try to do something about it. As for food, we can have our own piece of land and grow food. As for violence in the world, we can meditate and be ourself a more positive person... then irradiating good and love around us and ultimately to the whole world ...and so on. We can always do something ...

Some people in this world do worst things that what you talked about - I mean torture, violence,...

We can't fix everything, obviously we have to accept that things are that way to some point... but trying to change what we can is a way to get peace.

love
Cynthia

cynthia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well - each time we find something disturbing, we
> can try to do something about it. As for food, we
> can have our own piece of land and grow food.

We can't all have our own piece of land to grow food Cynthia. I sure wish this was true and I appreciate your positivity but there is not enough actual land in this world for everyone in existance today to have a piece of it. We need to share the land and take care of each other. There are wonderful CSA's, community supported agriculture, projects all over the place that need our support so that they can support us. Find one near you, buy from them, go and work the land for a bit to really feel connected to your food. Waiting until my piece of land appears isn't going to work out very well I'm afraid...
Though a friend did offer me a row in his front yard garden the other day .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2013 01:20PM by coco.

Cynthia, I LOVE what you wrote. It's so easy to get paralyzed by negativity.

I was at a yoga temple yesterday to celebrate Janmashtami, which is Krishna's birthday. The guru stated that when we are moved to speak or do something, we should always ask ourselves: "Will this bring me happiness? Will this bring others happiness?"

Think about how many useless words and actions that eliminates, LOL

Coco, I am surprised to hear you say that about "not enough." If you look at it this way, we don't need 10 acres each. We also could use small spaces and do a terraced garden with layers. Very effective use of space. I think there are also ways to hang baskets to utilize overhead spaces!

Another thing, which is actually already in existence, is to connect online with others and offer your excess produce in exchange for theirs. I do believe that we need to connect with others to really make this work. Those with more funds could purchase land for others to rent at low cost, etc.

Banana, a lot of the land used in some of those equations people quote determining that everyone could have a piece of land themselves is actually unlivable. Like the Canadian Sheild. It's the entire centre of our country, it's literally solid rock face with a few inches of soil over top. Nothing can be grown there. There are desserts and swamps etc where it would be an enormous struggle to live and produce food. Not only that, there are many people who have other talents and skills and would in no way enjoy or be good at growing and harvesting food and if they were forced to do it the skill pool of the populace would be sadly diminished. The fact is that food production needs to be a communal thing done by those who are good at it and want to do it. That's not everybody.

I wonder how many of you have farmed food (including harvesting and preserving) and I don't mean a small garden patch, I mean no less than an acre supplying at least a good portion of your food needs for a full year? Our past neighbour has a very large garden at her property and another on family land and between her and her husband, my children and I and 2 sets of other friends we were still not able to tend to, harvest and process even half of the food that grew. Not while running the rest of our lives, working, raising children, running households. I know that our great great great great great grannies ALL did it but that lifestyle is lost to us.

It's great to be positive but it's also good to be realistic. Some ideas work only in theory and aren't worth our energy and attention when we could be putting those somewhere they will do some good. Seriously, support a CSA. A lot of them even deliver a weekly food box and when you get to know your farmer you Really know how your food was produced.

Yes, but I am speaking if we went back to that lifestyle. It is practical and do-able because people are doing it. You might be correct in describing some of Canada's terrain but I still believe there is enough to go around.

The problem is that people are on the hamster wheel because they feel they have to earn money for their rent, etc. I am speaking if the paradigm totally shifted and people worked to live and not the other way around.

What about all the land used for ANIMAL FOODS?! That alone would free up so much land to grow stuff. And even donating a few hours per day would be enough to help those who are better/more knowledgeable about growing things.

I think Cynthia is just stating that every time we read or hear something negative, it is possible to turn to a higher thought. It doesn't mean we have to act, but just replacing that thought with an uplifting idea seems more energizing. At least it does to me.

I do appreciate you and others who bring these issues/problems facing us. I don't ever want to stick my head in the sand. I love CSAs but they seem to charge upfront although I think that might have changed somewhat. I am always afraid that it won't be that much produce for two people for the week. But I am wanting to try them out so maybe I should if I can find one where there is no full-season commitment.

The reason they charge up front is to cover the cost of a larger scale farming operation, else they wouldn't be able to do it. A lot of the cost in farming is up front, the pay off at the tail end .

I think I find it frustrating to replace a thought of negativity and dismay with something positive that isn't based in reality. That works for some people, just to think of something better even if it's utterly unrealistic, but I find it more depressing instead of less. If the positive things I turn to are actually doable, right here and now without a major cultural shift that doesn't seem likely in my lifetime, that is helpful to me. But the whole going back to nature thing on a large scale? No. I don't see that happening. I see hobby farms created by people of privelege with a great deal more money than I have, they ran that hamster wheel good and hard before they got off and went back to the land or they inherited money or they have a skill that earns them 8 times what I'm capable of making. And the land used for growing food for animals, that's not going to change. Most of the feilds near our old place were planted w corn and soy used for feed and fuel intersperced with gmo tomatoes. Sigh.

For me these positive thoughts have to have actual direction. Ok, so what CAN I do? I can visit my friend's front yard garden and pick some produce. Sure it was grown in the city in front yard city dirt but it's fresh wasn't sprayed with any chemicals. And I can help him expand next season. And I can use the balcony here for some low-light stuff, I can sprout, I can join a local CSA, I can buy a membership at the local food co-op because they screen their suppliers very well.
I was living very low rent on a large piece of land but it was not possible to create that back to the land lifestyle while working and raising kids and running the house, there simply isn't enough of me to go around and do all those things. It's actually easier to live in a city and work for a living to pay rent and buy necessities. I find I have more free time for us, more energy for living, and less stress. Can you believe that? LOL.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2013 02:54PM by coco.

Storm, look into Wwoofing. That's all organic and a wonderful experience.

Look at this little shining light of positivity! A guy I know from our last location, a really get-up-and-go activist.
[www.ourwindsor.ca]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2013 03:29PM by coco.